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kristopher

(29,798 posts)
Mon Jun 4, 2012, 11:34 AM Jun 2012

Nuclear and coal-fired electrical plants vulnerable to climate change

Press release, no copyright concerns.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-06/uow-nac053112.php


Nuclear and coal-fired electrical plants vulnerable to climate change

Warmer water and reduced river flows in the United States and Europe in recent years have led to reduced production, or temporary shutdown, of several thermoelectric power plants. For instance, the Browns Ferry Nuclear Plant in Alabama had to shut down more than once last summer because the Tennessee River's water was too warm to use it for cooling.

A study by European and University of Washington scientists published today in Nature Climate Change projects that in the next 50 years warmer water and lower flows will lead to more such power disruptions. The authors predict that thermoelectric power generating capacity from 2031 to 2060 will decrease by between 4 and 16 percent in the U.S. and 6 to 19 percent in Europe due to lack of cooling water. The likelihood of extreme drops in power generation—complete or almost-total shutdowns—is projected to almost triple.

"This study suggests that our reliance on thermal cooling is something that we're going to have to revisit," said co-author Dennis Lettenmaier, a UW professor of civil and environmental engineering.

Thermoelectric plants, which use nuclear or fossil fuels to heat water into steam that turns a turbine, supply more than 90 percent of U.S. electricity and account for 40 percent of the nation's freshwater usage. In Europe, these plants supply three-quarters of the electricity and account for about half of the freshwater use.

While much of this water is "recycled," the power plants rely on consistent volumes of water, at a particular temperature, to prevent the turbines from overheating.

Reduced water availability and warmer water, caused by increasing air temperatures associated with climate change, mean higher electricity costs and less reliability.

While plants with cooling towers will be affected, results show older plants that rely on "once-through cooling" are the most vulnerable. These plants pump water directly from rivers or lakes to cool the turbines before returning the water to its source, and require high flow volumes.

The study projects the most significant U.S. effects at power plants situated inland on major rivers in the Southeast that use once-through cooling, such as the Browns Ferry plant in Alabama and the New Madrid coal-fired plant in southeastern Missouri.

"The worst-case scenarios in the Southeast come from heat waves where you need the power for air conditioning," Lettenmaier said. "If you have really high power demand and the river temperature's too high so you need to shut your power plant down, you have a problem."

The study used hydrological and water temperature models developed by Lettenmaier and co-author John Yearsley, a UW affiliate professor of civil and environmental engineering. The European authors combined these with an electricity production model and considered two climate-change scenarios: one with modest technological change and one that assumed a rapid transition to renewable energy. The range of projected impacts to power systems covers both scenarios.

The U.S. and Europe both have strict environmental standards for the volume of water withdrawn by plants and the temperature of the water discharged. Warm periods coupled with low river flows could thus lead to more conflicts between environmental objectives and energy production.

Discharging water at elevated temperatures causes yet another problem: downstream thermal pollution.

"Higher electricity prices and disruption to supply are significant concerns for the energy sector and consumers, but another growing concern is the environmental impact of increasing water temperatures on river ecosystems, affecting, for example, life cycles of aquatic organisms," said first author Michelle van Vliet, a doctoral student at the Wageningen University and Research Centre in the Netherlands.

Given the high costs and the long lifetime of power plants, the authors say, such long-range projections are important to let the electricity sector adapt to changes in the availability of cooling water and plan infrastructure investments accordingly.

One adaptation strategy would be to reduce reliance on freshwater sources and place the plants near saltwater, according to corresponding author Pavel Kabat, director of the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis in Austria and van Vliet's doctoral adviser.

"However, given the life expectancy of power plants and the inability to relocate them to an alternative water source, this is not an immediate solution, but should be factored into infrastructure planning," he said. "Another option is to switch to new gas-fired power plants that are both more efficient than nuclear- or fossil-fuel-power plants and that also use less water."

###
The study was supported by the European Commission.

Other co-authors are Fulco Ludwig at Wageningen University and Stefan Vögele at the Institute of Energy and Climate Research in Germany.


Of course we could also transition to a distributed, renewable grid - which is exactly what is in the process of happening.
29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Nuclear and coal-fired electrical plants vulnerable to climate change (Original Post) kristopher Jun 2012 OP
Nuclear Power is needed Paul J.D. Jones Jun 2012 #1
No it isn't. kristopher Jun 2012 #2
Remember also that when you draw water from a river to cool a plant you warm the river. OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #4
And it also is warming the planet ever so little but warming nevertheless madokie Jun 2012 #6
It is my understanding that they use about the same amount per kilowatt OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #8
I think what is being missed is the high heat of the reactor itself and the cooling pools madokie Jun 2012 #9
I had not considered the spent rods OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #10
Insignificant when they're throwing millions of gallons per day at the spent fuel pool in #4 madokie Jun 2012 #11
Millions of gallons? FBaggins Jun 2012 #12
Do you deliberately not check your claims? kristopher Jun 2012 #13
Isn't it annoying? FBaggins Jun 2012 #14
Claiming that new deformation in blg 4 doesn't exist or is meaningless... kristopher Jun 2012 #15
Nobody said that it "doesn't exist" FBaggins Jun 2012 #16
Please provide the original sources for your assertions kristopher Jun 2012 #17
Where's your original source for it being a new bulge? FBaggins Jun 2012 #18
The "breathless" claims? kristopher Jun 2012 #19
Politicians "expert" on science???? PamW Jun 2012 #25
What's new about that? PamW Jun 2012 #24
They talk in ton's kris madokie Jun 2012 #20
1 gallon of water = 8.35 pounds kristopher Jun 2012 #21
Ok I mis spoke madokie Jun 2012 #26
Let’s see… OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #22
I think you got it right, mybad madokie Jun 2012 #27
Nuclear Power needs to replaced as soon as possible FogerRox Jun 2012 #5
Posting privileges revoked -spammer. nt bananas Jun 2012 #23
For his post in this thread? zeaper Jun 2012 #28
No... for regular spam. FBaggins Jun 2012 #29
More OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #3
Good thing we've decided to do fuck all about climate change, eh? joshcryer Jun 2012 #7
 

Paul J.D. Jones

(11 posts)
1. Nuclear Power is needed
Mon Jun 4, 2012, 12:13 PM
Jun 2012

A recent news article about natural gas in Australia said that they still have over 200 years of gas production remaining, but they forget to mention what that meant in terms of world consumption - probably quite a few years less. Nuclear power is a necessary evil if we will all continue to live our current lifestyles. Perhaps nuclear power stations should be built in colder places if warm water can shut a plant down!

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
2. No it isn't.
Mon Jun 4, 2012, 01:20 PM
Jun 2012

We have more than enough renewable resources to power our culture. AND renewables can respond to climate change faster, quicker, more sustainably, and more safely than can nuclear. In fact, nuclear is an obstacle to change since it props up the economic structure that makes coal a desirable commodity.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
4. Remember also that when you draw water from a river to cool a plant you warm the river.
Mon Jun 4, 2012, 02:02 PM
Jun 2012

This has significant ecological impacts on the river.

madokie

(51,076 posts)
6. And it also is warming the planet ever so little but warming nevertheless
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 07:34 AM
Jun 2012

I've asked the question and gotten pretty much negative answers of whether nuclear power plants use more cooling water than coal plants. I say they do by a long shot as evidenced by the amount of river/ocean water they take in and the temperature rise of said water that I read about.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
8. It is my understanding that they use about the same amount per kilowatt
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 08:39 AM
Jun 2012

i.e. both typically have about ⅓ thermal efficiency, where twice as much energy is lost as waste heat as is produced in the form of electricity.

After all, fundamentally, both work by heating water to turn a turbine…

madokie

(51,076 posts)
9. I think what is being missed is the high heat of the reactor itself and the cooling pools
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 10:11 AM
Jun 2012

where the spent fuel is kept. Those two features makes me think that nuclear energy requires much more cooling water. When I say think I'm talking about what I've learned doing searches concerning this. I realize that the heat to make the power is the same, same efficiency etc, but I don't think the rest of the process, that I mention here, is taken into consideration when the numbers you gave me are calculated.

Nothing personal mind you.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
10. I had not considered the spent rods
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 10:28 AM
Jun 2012

My instinct tells me that this heat is relatively insignificant however. (After all, if there was a great deal of heat involved, wouldn’t they use it to generate power as well?)

Interestingly, the World Nuclear Association claims that coal plants are slightly more thermally efficient!

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/cooling_power_plants_inf121.html

[font face=Serif][font size=5]Cooling power plants[/font]

updated November 2011
[font size=3]
  • The amount of cooling required by any steam-cycle power plant (of a given size) is determined by its thermal efficiency. It has essentially nothing to do with whether it is fuelled by coal, gas or uranium.
  • However, currently operating nuclear plants often do have slightly lower thermal efficiency than coal counterparts of similar age, and coal plants discharge some waste heat with combustion gases, whereas nuclear plants rely on water.
  • Nuclear power plants have greater flexibility in location than coal-fired plants due to fuel logistics, giving them more potential for their siting to be determined by cooling considerations.


In a nuclear plant there is an additional requirement. When a fossil fuel plant is shut down, the source of heat is removed. When a nuclear plant is shut down some heat continues to be generated from radioactive decay, though the fission has ceased. This needs to be removed reliably, and the plant is designed to enable and assure this, both with routine cooling and also Emergency Core Cooling Systems (ECCS) provided in case of major problem with primary cooling. The routine cooling is initially with the main steam supply circuit bypassing the turbine and dumping heat into the condenser. After pressure drops, a residual heat removal system is relied upon with its own heat exchanger. The intensity of this decay heat diminishes with time, rapidly at first, and after a day or two ceases to be a problem if circulation is maintained.*


[/font]

EPRI 2010 (some 15% of coal plant waste heat is discharged through the stack, rather than cooling water). NB US gal =3.79 litres

…[/font]

Notice that (according to the World Nuclear Association at least) a solar thermal plant uses almost as much water as nuclear plant (once again, heating water to drive a turbine.)

madokie

(51,076 posts)
11. Insignificant when they're throwing millions of gallons per day at the spent fuel pool in #4
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 12:30 PM
Jun 2012

I'm not sure I'll believe anything put out by the nuclear industry concerning anything. No make that I will NOT believe anything put out by the nuke boys.

Insignificant when the reactors require so much cooling water to keep them from having a melt down.

I hit the post button too soon, sorry.
I don't remember ever reading that a coal plant had to shut down or dial back production because the water was too hot in the river it was getting their cooling water from but I have read where many nuclear power plants have had to do that very thing.
Color me confused if you will but I don't buy that a coal plant uses as much water for cooling as a nuclear power plant does, taking everything in consideration.

I may have missed the coal plants having to dial down production if they have and if I have mybad.
I'm just trying to understand

FBaggins

(26,754 posts)
12. Millions of gallons?
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 12:39 PM
Jun 2012

Where did you get that idea?

OKIsItJustMe's instincts are correct. I'd estimate about 1 MW of decay heat in pool 4 now... compared to about 2,500 times that much heat for the core when it was in operation.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
13. Do you deliberately not check your claims?
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 12:41 PM
Jun 2012

"Millions of gallons per day"?

Seriously? You seem to go out of your way to make opposition to nuclear power seem uninformed.

FBaggins

(26,754 posts)
14. Isn't it annoying?
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 01:13 PM
Jun 2012

I know just what you mean. Why... just a day or so ago I had this one guy try to pitch that there was a new bulge growing on unit #4.

Can you believe it?

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
15. Claiming that new deformation in blg 4 doesn't exist or is meaningless...
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 01:19 PM
Jun 2012

... is something you are free to do. It isn't supported by the evidence, but you are nonetheless free to make your claim.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/112716694

FBaggins

(26,754 posts)
16. Nobody said that it "doesn't exist"
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 01:36 PM
Jun 2012

What was ridiculous in your claim was that it was new.

And it isn't "meaningless"... it just means the opposite of what you're pushing. The point of the report was to debunk the nonsense internet conspiracy claims that the building was leaning/tilting and in danger of imminent collapse. They released measurements showing that the pool was level (not tilting), and some people pointed out that if a building is racked to one side (forming a sort of parallelogram), it's possible for the top to be level... but still have a leaning building. They then measured how vertical the support structure was and reported to such precision that they could even sense a "bulge" of a few centimeters.

This, of course, proved the internet conspiracy nuts to have been dead wrong all along, but would that stop them? Of course not! They jumped right out with claims that this bulge proved they were right all along.

And then it got even wilder with a handful of UFO-type sites claiming that bulge was "new". I didn't expect even the wildest anti-science posters to try to push that here... but now we know I was wrong.

It isn't supported by the evidence

You haven't given any evidence (because there isn't any). You made the entire thing up without even a theory on how a "new" bulge might be caused (as opposed to the far more obvious conclusion that it was caused by the explosion almost 15 months ago).

Do try to apply the minimum fact checking to your claims that you are (justificably) asking madokie for above. What physical mechanism could possibly cause a new bulge in the side of the building over a year later?

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
17. Please provide the original sources for your assertions
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 02:15 PM
Jun 2012

Sen Wyden was not assured by the evidence and I'm inclined to trust his evaluation.So while I know the bldg floor is level, you'll need to support the rest of your claims.

FBaggins

(26,754 posts)
18. Where's your original source for it being a new bulge?
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 02:43 PM
Jun 2012
Sen Wyden was not assured by the evidence

The evidence was released after his visit... not that I see any reason to care whether or not he's "assured".

There was press conference in early May

Kino: About the state of reactor4, has anyone surveyed the building?

NISA: Like tilt?

Kino: Yes, tilt and other points.

NISA: We surveyed the water level of SFP4, and confirmed it’s not leaning.

Kino: Apart from the water level, hasn’t anybody surveyed the level of the building?

NISA: Because we confirmed it was not leaning, we think there is no problem with the building. [...]
http://enenews.com/koide-spent-fuel-pool-no-4-was-caused-to-tilt-after-explosion-worried-about-pool-falling-down-nisa-we-confirmed-it-was-not-leaning-we-think-there-is-no-problem-with-the-building-video


Note some of the replied claiming that just because the pool is level doesn't mean that the building isn't tilting.

I can't get links to some sites from here (blocked), but you could check the early may post on Fuku Diary titled "Possible uneven settlement of reactor 4 | Fukushima Diary" The google summary includes "The building is like a parallelogram, but columns are not vertical. Simply, hang a plumb line from the four corners of the building to verify "

Then there's the Tepco report that resulted in the breathless "new bulge!!!!" claims:

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_120525_05-e.pdf

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
19. The "breathless" claims?
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 03:10 PM
Jun 2012

The OP has two sections, one is the concern related to the deformation of the building and the other is the seismic study. Concern over the structural integrity of the building isn't based on whether that deformation is new or whether it was finally measured after more than one year. It is based on 3 things:
1) the wear and tear the building has experienced and limited ability of TEPCO to evaluate the condition of the building and to ensure its safety.
2) the potential for a strong earthquake with an epicenter in the immediate vicinity of Fukushima
3) the potential for harm should the worst case come to pass.

None of those considerations are altered by your contributions.

Thank you for theTEPCO link, but it begs the question of why, if you had valid information from the beginning, didn't you present it instead of doing nothing but acting snarky?

PamW

(1,825 posts)
25. Politicians "expert" on science????
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 10:34 AM
Jun 2012

The opinion of a politician may carry weight when the question is a political question.

However, if you have a scientific question like whether a building is leaning or not, or something else in the field of physics; politicians are really poor sources of authority.

For scientific questions, listen to the scientists and engineers, and be damned with the politicians.

PamW

PamW

(1,825 posts)
24. What's new about that?
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 10:31 AM
Jun 2012

You haven't given any evidence (because there isn't any). You made the entire thing up without even a theory

What's new about that? That seems to be "de rigeur", SOP, standard operating procedure" for some. The validity of information isn't determined by the science, it is determined by whether they "like" that information or not, and whether it augers for their opinion.

In other words, it's the same old, "think with your politics, and not with your brain crowd".

PamW

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
22. Let’s see…
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 05:42 PM
Jun 2012

In the US, a ton of water means (roughly) 250 gallons of water. “A pint’s a pound the world around!
(A million gallons of water weighs roughly 4,000 tons.)

In the metric world, a “metric ton” is 1,000 liters of water. (A liter of water is one kilogram.)
(A million liters would be 1,000 metric tons.)
(A cubic meter of water is a thousand liters or one metric ton.)
(A cubic meter is about 264 gallons.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fukushima_I_spent_fuel_pool_4_cooling_water_March-May_2011_en.svg


So, from 3/11 to 5/27 (about 2½ months) they added less than 5,000 cubic meters of water to the spent fuel pool of unit #4 (i.e. less than 5,000 metric tons, or less than 1.32 million gallons.)


If I made any horrible errors, somebody please feel free to point them out.

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
5. Nuclear Power needs to replaced as soon as possible
Mon Jun 4, 2012, 09:47 PM
Jun 2012

Ahhhhh the old "lifestyle" argument........

I'll use the market argument, the markets are starting to pour money into renewables because the price points are better.


Yeah Nuclear power is needed, until it is replaced with renewables, then all 97 US plants can be shutdown.....

zeaper

(113 posts)
28. For his post in this thread?
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 01:33 PM
Jun 2012

I am sure many at this site did not agree with what he said, but it did not look like spam to me.

FBaggins

(26,754 posts)
29. No... for regular spam.
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 01:37 PM
Jun 2012

From his profile, it looks like he joined to gain attention for his travel business in latin america.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
3. More
Mon Jun 4, 2012, 01:34 PM
Jun 2012
http://www.iiasa.ac.at/Admin/INF/PR/2012/2012-06-04.html
[font face=Serif][font size=5]US and European energy supplies vulnerable to climate change – Nature Climate Change study[/font]

[font size=3]Laxenburg, Austria, Wageningen, The Netherlands 03 June 2012 – Higher water temperatures and reduced river flows in Europe and the United States in recent years have resulted in reduced production, or temporary shutdown, of several thermoelectric power plants, resulting in increased electricity prices and raising concerns about future energy security in a changing climate.

Thermoelectric (nuclear or fossil-fuelled) power plants, supply 91% and 78% of total electricity in the US and Europe respectively, thus disruption to their operation is a significant concern for the energy sector.

A study published today in Nature Climate Change projects further disruption to supply, with a likely decrease in thermoelectric power generating capacity of between 6-19% in Europe and 4-16% in the United States for the period 2031-2060, due to lack of cooling-water. The likelihood of extreme (>90%) reductions in thermoelectric power generation will, on average, increase by a factor of three.

Compared to other water use sectors (e.g. industry, agriculture, domestic use), the thermoelectric power sector is one of the largest water users in the US (at 40%) and in Europe (43% of total surface water withdrawals). While much of this water is ‘recycled’ the power plants rely on consistent volumes of water, at a particular temperature, to prevent overheating of power plants. Reduced water availability and higher water temperatures - caused by increasing ambient air temperatures associated with climate change - are therefore significant issues for electricity supply.

…[/font][/font]

http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nclimate1546

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
7. Good thing we've decided to do fuck all about climate change, eh?
Tue Jun 5, 2012, 08:14 AM
Jun 2012

Just let it run its course and build out renewables.

Of course, wind and hydro have their share of climate change related issues.

But who cares, build out enough of it and problem solved.

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