Environment & Energy
Related: About this forumBenefits of thorium as alternative nuclear fuel are 'overstated': UK government report
It's a shame so many fell for the thorium hype.
Benefits of thorium as alternative nuclear fuel are 'overstated'
A report on thorium's potential says the UK should continue to research the technology but downplays proponents' claims
Mark Halper
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 13 September 2012 02.00 EDT
The benefits of an alternative nuclear fuel that could offer a safer and more abundant alternative to the uranium that powers conventional reactors have been "overstated", according a new government report on the potential of thorium.
The report says the UK should continue to be engaged with the technology but downplays claims by thorium proponents who say that the radioactive chemical element makes it impossible to build a bomb from nuclear waste, leaves less hazardous waste than uranium reactors, and that it runs more efficiently.
"Thorium has theoretical advantages regarding sustainability, reducing radiotoxicity and reducing proliferation risk," states the report, prepared for the Department of Energy and Climate Change by the National Nuclear Laboratory (NNL). "While there is some justification for these benefits, they are often overstated."
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"Nevertheless, it is important to recognise that worldwide there remains interest in thorium fuel cycles and this is not likely to diminish in the near future," the report concludes. "It may therefore be judicious for the UK to maintain a low level of engagement in thorium fuel cycle research and development by involvement in international collaborative research activities."
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a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)we use the existing nuclear waste to create long duration atomic batteries, from already proven safe designs...
Warpy
(111,267 posts)of bomb grade materials. Uranium technology was the preferred technology back in those "atoms for peace" days because uranium produced bomb grade material much more quickly.
Still, even thorium reactors have to be seen as a stop gap technology since they present many of the same environmental risks as any other nuclear technology, albeit more slowly and in lesser quantity.
It will be interesting to see whether or not it can be made viable where it is being intensively researched, India and China.
Still, yes, it has been oversold as "safe" nuclear power on every single level. No nuclear power is safe. Fukushima showed us it can't be.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)bananas
(27,509 posts)The person who maintains the Nuclear Weapon Archive website explained it clearly:
Wired Article Errors and Omissions (Score:5, Informative)
by careysub (976506) on Saturday January 02 2010, @01:20PM (#30623708)
The Wired Magazine article presents a false picture of the development of nuclear power and leaves out some crucial facts about thorium reactors. A key fact about thorium reactors mentioned no where in the article: you can't build a reactor, load it with thorium alone, and have it work. It will sit there producing no power forever. This because thorium is only the breeding material and is not fissile. To get the reactor to produce power the thorium has to be mixed with plutonium or U-233 bred in some uranium fueled reactor somewhere, or with highly enriched U-235. In other words - the reactor has to be loaded with bomb-usable material and there has to be a lot of it, enough for hundreds of weapons.
This is part of why the whole quasi-conspiratorial story of "why we didn't go with thorium in the first place" is utter nonsense. It was not because "we wanted bombs instead" and were prejudiced against "superior thorium", it is because only if you have an established nuclear industry cranking out materials usable in bombs by the thousands can you build these reactors in the first place. Either you must have natural/low enriched uranium reactors to produce plutonium, or you need large amounts of highly enriched uranium (prime bomb material) to load into thorium breeders.
Also unacknowledged is that the particular type of reactor being promoted, the molten fluoride salt reactor, was and is a complex technology that requires substantial additional development. Only one single reactor of this kind was ever built, and it was an 8 megawatt (thermal) materials test reactor, not a power reactor. We are looking at many years of additional development before construction can start on a prototype full scale power reactor. I agree that this technology should be further pursued, and it may turn out more successful that plutonium breeders (no successful power plants have been built, just several failures) but it is by no means guaranteed.
Hyman Rickover, by the way, was interested in light water uranium fueled reactors because they are a good technology for powering submarines, not because they produce plutonium (they are lousy plutonium producers, the yield is low and the material produced has terrible properties for bombs).
Check out the 2005 IAEA survey document ( http://www.energyfromthorium.com/pdf/IAEA-TECDOC-1450.pdf ) for a good summary of the thorium technology options and prospects.
bananas
(27,509 posts)The Molten-Salt Reactor Experiment (MSRE) was an experimental molten-salt nuclear reactor at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL) researching this technology through the 1960s; constructed by 1964, it went critical in 1965 and was operated until 1969.
The MSRE was a 7.4 MWth test reactor simulating the neutronic "kernel" of a type of inherently safe epithermal thorium breeder reactor called the Liquid fluoride thorium reactor. It primarily used two fuels: first uranium-235 and later uranium-233. The last, 233UF4 was the result of breeding from thorium in other reactors. Since this was an engineering test, the large, expensive breeding blanket of thorium salt was omitted in favor of neutron measurements.
longship
(40,416 posts)madokie
(51,076 posts)I wonder how many of these cylinders exist
hunter
(38,316 posts)The former Sovet Union, 460,000 tonnes and France 190,000 tonnes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium
It could be used as fuel for various sorts of breeder reactors.
A major problem is that most of it is stored as uranium hexafluoride, which "is highly toxic, reacts violently with water and is corrosive to most metals..." It's not the kind of stuff we want to leave to our grandchildren. Even if it's never used as fuel, it needs to be turned into something else, usually uranium oxide.
bananas
(27,509 posts)Your "solution" just makes the problem worse.
madokie
(51,076 posts)We'll have to start a lot of wars and at some point we'll run out of poor kids to fight these wars.
Come to think of it that might be the plan right there.
indie9197
(509 posts)which were a by-product of Uranium enrichment. Bad stuff since UF6 reacts with water to produce HF- a very dangerous gas. I don't think I would want to be that close to those rusted cannisters.
They probably can't be disposed of in the form of UF6. They would probably have to be processed into a more stable form and that would be really expensive. That's probably why they are still sitting there.
I'm surprised these areas aren't getting more publicity. Definitely a ticking time bomb and as time goes on will be even more expensive to get rid of.
NNadir
(33,523 posts)This is because there is 5 billion tons of uranium in the ocean, and that the constant cycling of uranium through crustal rocks would make it impossible to remove it: Uranium, unlike the lanthanides that all of our anti-nukes are trying to dig up to run their expensive and long failing wind power scam is essentially renewable.
The intersting thing about the scientifically illiterate anti-nuke squad is that their fucking expensive and failed wind scam that takes money out of the hands of the poor, the unfed, the unsheltered actually results in the dumping of huge quantities of thorium.
Anti-nukes know no science and whatever science they hear about they hate, but practically every lanthanide mine on earth cotnains thorium, huge amounts of it.
I always like to hear these dumbells with their radiation paranoia harp on their wind fantasy, which requires the dumping of huge amounts of thorium tailinjgs.
If humanity survives the fear, ignorance and superstition of anti-nuke rheotric - not a likely bet becuase anti-nuke stupidity is very, very, very popular - one way to clean up the mess left by the wind industry, would, of course be to fission the thorium wastes by transmuting it into U-233 using advanced plutonium.
But anti-nukes, just as they couldn't give a rat's ass for the 3.3 million people killed each year by their ignorance (half of whom are under the age of 5) don't give a fuck about their wind scam waste.
It's a Chinese problem in their minds: In China, the true cost of Britain's clean, green wind power experiment: Pollution on a disastrous scale
Thorium is an excellent fuel, but it is not a nuclear panacea. It would be useful for breeding plutonium from the million ton quantities of depleted uranium that have already been mined. But it is not very soluble in seawater and thus is not as sustainable as uranium, the supplies of which could probably never be exahusted. It we were to use this uranium and thorium in defiiance of the scientific and moral idiots that make up the anti-nuke movement, throwing their garbage on the intellectual waste heap that we now reserve for their brother creationists, we would not be required to operate a single energy mine for many centuries, the millions who die each year from air pollution would be saved and our atmosphere might even be stabilized.
But that won't happen.
Fear, ignorance and superstition have won the day.
Heckuva job anti-nukes. You must be very proud.