Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
Environment & Energy
Related: About this forumWill Boeing’s 787 Battery Issues Ground Electric Vehicles, Too?
Will Boeings 787 Battery Issues Ground Electric Vehicles, Too?
Ryan Matley
Consultant
February 4, 2013
Boeing has made big news in recent weeks, but for all the wrong reasons. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) grounded Boeings flagship airplane, the fuel-efficient, next generation 787 Dreamliner. The problem isnt its innovative carbon fiber construction, but rather a less heralded technologic leap: lithium ion batteries. In the span of one week a battery caught fire while a plane was at the gate in Boston and another forced an emergency landing and evacuation in Japan when it overheated. This marks the first grounding of an airplane type since the DC-10 in 1979.
Inevitably, news stories appeared connecting the 787s battery troubles to past laptop battery fires and electric vehicles (EVs), reflexively highlighting the 2011 Chevy Volt fire that occurred following crash testing.
...Unlike electronics and aerospace batteries, electric vehicles do not use LiCoO2 chemistry, specifically because of its safety concerns. (Some 2,500 early Tesla Roadsters used LiCoO2 batteries designed with multiple safeguards, but the company has since switched to batteries with more stable chemistries.) Automakers have intentionally traded less energy density for better safety and lower cost (cobalt is expensive). Most electric vehicles or plug-in hybrids on the road use a lithium-manganese-spinel (LiMn2O4) chemistry. Some are adding a nickel-manganese-cobalt chemistry developed at Argonne National Lab to increase energy density.
...Does more stable lithium ion chemistry combined with the robust design of automotive batteries mean a 787-style battery meltdown will never occur in an EV? Of course not. The precise reason that lithium-ion batteries are usedtheir high energy densityincreases the odds of a sudden energy release (aka fire). But that doesnt mean electric vehicles are any less safe than internal combustion vehicles. For the last one hundred years cars have been carrying around gasoline, which has more than twice the energy density of lithium ion. Automakers have been able to minimize, but not eliminate (see the Ford Pinto) the risk of fire due to fuel leaks. In fact, I might prefer the on-road safety record of current automotive lithium-ion batteries, which have had zero reported fires in over 500 million miles driven. By comparison, gasoline vehicles have averaged nearly 65,000 vehicle fires that caused 300 fatalities per year between 2008 and 2010.
Ryan Matley
Consultant
February 4, 2013
Boeing has made big news in recent weeks, but for all the wrong reasons. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) grounded Boeings flagship airplane, the fuel-efficient, next generation 787 Dreamliner. The problem isnt its innovative carbon fiber construction, but rather a less heralded technologic leap: lithium ion batteries. In the span of one week a battery caught fire while a plane was at the gate in Boston and another forced an emergency landing and evacuation in Japan when it overheated. This marks the first grounding of an airplane type since the DC-10 in 1979.
Inevitably, news stories appeared connecting the 787s battery troubles to past laptop battery fires and electric vehicles (EVs), reflexively highlighting the 2011 Chevy Volt fire that occurred following crash testing.
...Unlike electronics and aerospace batteries, electric vehicles do not use LiCoO2 chemistry, specifically because of its safety concerns. (Some 2,500 early Tesla Roadsters used LiCoO2 batteries designed with multiple safeguards, but the company has since switched to batteries with more stable chemistries.) Automakers have intentionally traded less energy density for better safety and lower cost (cobalt is expensive). Most electric vehicles or plug-in hybrids on the road use a lithium-manganese-spinel (LiMn2O4) chemistry. Some are adding a nickel-manganese-cobalt chemistry developed at Argonne National Lab to increase energy density.
...Does more stable lithium ion chemistry combined with the robust design of automotive batteries mean a 787-style battery meltdown will never occur in an EV? Of course not. The precise reason that lithium-ion batteries are usedtheir high energy densityincreases the odds of a sudden energy release (aka fire). But that doesnt mean electric vehicles are any less safe than internal combustion vehicles. For the last one hundred years cars have been carrying around gasoline, which has more than twice the energy density of lithium ion. Automakers have been able to minimize, but not eliminate (see the Ford Pinto) the risk of fire due to fuel leaks. In fact, I might prefer the on-road safety record of current automotive lithium-ion batteries, which have had zero reported fires in over 500 million miles driven. By comparison, gasoline vehicles have averaged nearly 65,000 vehicle fires that caused 300 fatalities per year between 2008 and 2010.
http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2013_02_04_Will_Boeings_787_Battery_Issues_Ground_Electric_Vehicles
InfoView thread info, including edit history
TrashPut this thread in your Trash Can (My DU » Trash Can)
BookmarkAdd this thread to your Bookmarks (My DU » Bookmarks)
5 replies, 2651 views
ShareGet links to this post and/or share on social media
AlertAlert this post for a rule violation
PowersThere are no powers you can use on this post
EditCannot edit other people's posts
ReplyReply to this post
EditCannot edit other people's posts
Rec (0)
ReplyReply to this post
5 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
![](du4img/smicon-reply-new.gif)
Will Boeing’s 787 Battery Issues Ground Electric Vehicles, Too? (Original Post)
kristopher
Feb 2013
OP
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)1. Here's an interesting paragraph from your link
There is a history of lithium ion batteries catching fire in electronics. A spate of fires resulted in the recall of millions of lithium ion batteries for laptops in 2006 and again in 2008. The cause was tiny shards of metal introduced in the manufacturing process that short circuited cells. Even more troubling, lithium ion batteries have been implicated in, but not proven to cause, two fatal cargo plane accidents in the last seven years: a UPS 747 and an Asiana 747. Each flight was carrying shipments of lithium ion batteries and suffered fires that originated in the cargo hold. The incidents at the heart of the 787s grounding are not even the first problems the program has faced with lithium-ion batteries. A sub-contractors facility where they designed and manufactured battery-charging electronics for the 787 program burned down while testing a battery. The cause was an improper test setup, but the scale of the damage highlights the risks in the technology.
OKIsItJustMe
(19,938 posts)2. Of course, risks are relative
A large battery pack, of any type represents a great deal of stored energy, which can potentially cause a fire.
Todays typical car drives around with a 12 volt lead-acid battery, which under the right conditions can explode. (One way to do this is to overcharge them.)
There have been a small number of notorious battery fires linked with Electric Vehicles, (for example the Volt fire where a car was crashed, as part of a safety test, the battery pack left connected, and three weeks later a fire started.) Does anyone seriously think the odds of an EV catching fire are higher than the odds of a gasoline-powered car doing the same?
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Autos/story?id=1207557&page=1
[font face=Serif][font size=5]New Warning to be Issued About Deadly Car Fires[/font]
ORLANDO, Fla., Oct. 12, 2005
[font size=3] AAA and the National Fire Protection Association will issue a warning tomorrow about car fires, ABC News has learned. Last year, 266,000 car fires resulted in 520 deaths, the organizations say.
"It was a horrible explosion," said car fire victim Bob Aymar, who, in less than a minute, suffered third degree burns on his face, hand and arm. He was sprayed by a gasoline fireball during a violent traffic accident on a Southern California freeway.
"The Bronco behind me was hit so hard that it ruptured the gas tank," said Aymar, who, after seven surgeries, was finally able to play the piano again.
He is just one of more than 1,300 car fire victims every year. According to the NFPA, cars catch fire on American highways once every two minutes.
[/font][/font]
ORLANDO, Fla., Oct. 12, 2005
[font size=3] AAA and the National Fire Protection Association will issue a warning tomorrow about car fires, ABC News has learned. Last year, 266,000 car fires resulted in 520 deaths, the organizations say.
"It was a horrible explosion," said car fire victim Bob Aymar, who, in less than a minute, suffered third degree burns on his face, hand and arm. He was sprayed by a gasoline fireball during a violent traffic accident on a Southern California freeway.
"The Bronco behind me was hit so hard that it ruptured the gas tank," said Aymar, who, after seven surgeries, was finally able to play the piano again.
He is just one of more than 1,300 car fire victims every year. According to the NFPA, cars catch fire on American highways once every two minutes.
[/font][/font]
tinrobot
(10,900 posts)3. Sorry, I'm still not afraid of electric vehicles.
Nice try, though.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)5. You've experienced a reading comprehension failure
quadrature
(2,049 posts)4. cobalt...worst possible choice .nt
nt