Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

phantom power

(25,966 posts)
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:07 PM Mar 2013

The Mechanical Transmission of Power: Endless Rope Drives

Cool article on the history of cable/pulley power transmission. Lots of photos and figures thru the link.

Late nineteenth-century industry was in need of a more efficient and versatile method of power transmission for both short and long distances. Several alternatives were in the running: power could be transmitted by electricity, compressed air, hydraulics, steam, millwork, or ropes. While electricity eventually won the battle, a few others deserve more attention [5].

Rope transmission, the subject of this article, stands apart from all other power transmission technologies because it doesn't involve any conversion of energy. An endless rope drive transmits mechanical energy directly from a power source to machinery. As we will see, this makes rope transmission more efficient than any other alternative up to a distance of a few kilometres.

...

It may seem that wire rope power transmissions running over hundreds and sometimes thousands of metres, could not be very efficient. However, a wire rope transmission was considerably more efficient (and cheaper) than electricity up to distances of about 5 km (3 miles). As with jerker line systems, the efficiency advantage was due to the fact that in a telodynamic transmission mechanical energy can be transmitted without conversion losses.

...

... the efficiency of electricity would still be lower than that of a wire rope transmission over a relatively short distance, because of the double energy conversion that is required to move mechanical energy using electricity. The combined energy losses in a modern electric motor and generator are about 15%, which makes the double energy conversion 85% efficient [10]. This is better than the 69% efficiency in the 1889 table shown above, but still inferior to the efficiency of a nineteenth century wire rope transmission up to a distance of at least 1 km (3,000 feet).

Of course, it is not fair to compare a nineteenth-century wire rope transmission with a 21st-century electric transmission. With today's knowledge and materials, a rope transmission could be improved in two ways: by using stronger and/or lighter ropes, and by running them at higher speeds. The result would be that more power can be transmitted over longer distances with less friction loss.

...

If a rope with a diameter of 2.5 cm (1 inch) can transmit 50 hp at a velocity of 20 feet per second (22 km/h), the same rope could transmit 250 hp at a velocity of 100 feet per second (110 km/h). Conversely, if a rope with a diameter of 2.5 cm can transmit 50 hp at a velocity of 20 feet per second, a rope of only half that diameter could deliver the same amount of power if it was running at twice the speed, and should run at a velocity of 200 feet per second (220 km/h) in order to transmit 250 hp.

Theoretically, there are no limits to power transmission by rope. "To put an extreme illustration", wrote Albert Stahl in 1889, "we may conceive of a speed at which an iron wire as fine as a human hair would be able to transmit the same amount of work as the original one-inch [rope]". Conversely, we could argue that if we could learn how to run ropes fast enough, a ship hawser could transmit the power of an entire nuclear plant [11]. While this is far from reality at this point, we do have better ropes than 120 years ago, and we can run them faster.

...

It may be that the future of wire rope transmission lies in long distance power transmission after all, at least vertically. The only research field that dedicates itself to rope drive technology these days is that of high-altitude kite power. Kites could harvest large amounts of energy at high altitudes, where winds are stronger and steadier. Transmitting this energy to Earth is most advantageously done by mechanical power transmission, says researcher Dave Santos from KiteLab Group in an interview

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9885
8 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Mechanical Transmission of Power: Endless Rope Drives (Original Post) phantom power Mar 2013 OP
How do you store this energy and how do you tap into it in increments? DetlefK Mar 2013 #1
Why do you need to store it? kristopher Mar 2013 #3
You do NOT need to store, if the energy is NOT used. happyslug Mar 2013 #4
Interesting. kristopher Mar 2013 #2
that looks pretty cool... phantom power Mar 2013 #5
San Francisco Cable Car Barn & Powerhouse One_Life_To_Give Mar 2013 #6
You could launch spacecraft that way too... hunter Mar 2013 #7
My vision of space exploration is on the other end of the spectrum. GliderGuider Mar 2013 #8

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
1. How do you store this energy and how do you tap into it in increments?
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:24 PM
Mar 2013

You can store electric energy by transforming it into two electrochemical half-cells out of balance. (The half-cells constitute the plus- and the minus-pole of a battery.) Or you can transform it mechanical energy which pumps water towards the upper side of a water reservoir dam and the energy is stored as a gravity-potential.

How do you store kinetic energy?

And how do you regulate the amount of energy you suck out of the moving rope? The only method I see is by controlling the angular momentum of a rotation device and this would require cogs with real-time-adjustable diameters.






So, even if kinetic energy has less transmission-losses, electric energy offers more comfort and better miniaturization.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
3. Why do you need to store it?
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:21 PM
Mar 2013

You could either use it on site or, in the case of the kite, avoid lifting the weight of a generator and convert the wind energy to electricity on the ground.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
4. You do NOT need to store, if the energy is NOT used.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:21 PM
Mar 2013

In most mechanical application of energy, the energy to perform them mechanical act is only applied as long as the function is performed. Once they is not need to perform the function, the energy use can be cut to zero.

You only need to store energy, if creation of that energy is NOT related to its use. On my bicycle, I do NOT need to store energy as I peddle along, I am only using the energy NEEDED to go forward, no excess energy.

The problem with electricity is that the creation of electricity is often done independent of the demand for electrical energy. In most electrical generators, since it takes time to turn on, and then up or down, and then off the electrical generators, you end up with times of excessive electrical generation (Which has to be stored for later use) or a shortage (When people get browns outs and black outs). The easiest electrical generation to turn on and off is Hydro electrical, thus you example of using electrical power to use excess electrical power to pump water uphill for later use when the electrical power demand exceeds the base load.

In a Rope type system, the energy is applied to the "Rope" only when it is needed. Thus you can turn off or on the power when it is needed. No Excess power, not shortage of power. This is also its limitation, you have no way to increase energy use without building an entirely new system. With an electrical system, if demand increases, you can increase electrical power into the system with just minor upgrades in the lines between the electrical generators and the end users.

If the rope system is to long to be turn on or off as needed, then you can run its 100% all the time. With increase pull on the rope when you have increase resistance by someone using the "rope" (This is how the San Francisco cable cars work, the cable is moving all of the time, put when a cable car "grabs" the cable, that increases tension on the line which leads to increase input to pull the cable, When the Cable is released, energy demand drops as does the energy put into the system). Less efficient then a on and off system, but NOT by much if one stays within a range mentioned in the article. Also remember all that is needed on the cable car is a mechanism to grab the cable, no engine to weigh down the cable car. i.e. no extra weight for the cable to pull).

If you have enough objects using the rope (Again look at the Cable Cars of San Francisco), the shear number can compensate for each other as to the ups and down of energy needs. Incline planes have many of the same advantages, one car going down, equals in weight, the car going up and they counterbalance each other. Thus the only power actually used is to propel the CARGO up and down (When the Pennsylvania Canal and Old Portage Railway was built in the 1830s, it was for this reason incline were used, the steam engines of the time period were to small to hull themselves, their cars AND their cargo over Allegheny Mountain, but they were big enough to hull the cargo, which is all they had to do when hulled up an incline plane).

In most rope systems, any loss of energy had more to do with moving the rope along, then in any other factor, thus minimum opportunity to use this wasted energy for any other purpose. On the other hand, that we are talking about short bursts of energy, that only had to be produced when actually used, is a huge energy saving over having to produce a base load. Thus the energy savings is huge by the simple fact of NOT having that much energy wasted by having to operate the energy source more then needed. The famous comment, the best way to save energy is just to turn it off.

Side note: The above is hard to do, most direct "rope" system that survive to this day, use electrical power as their power source. Thus most Inclines and even the San Francisco Cable Cars use Electricity as they direct energy source, something NOT actually required or even done in the 1800s, when most Inclines were steam or even water driven (Using electricity to propel the cable is more efficient then the steam engines that did it in the 1800s, but using cable is more efficient then using electricity directly on the cable cars, when it comes to operation on the road of the Cable Cars). Steam was the original source of energy for the Cable Car's Cable and the various Inclines in the US, but most replaced their steam engines with electrical motors decades ago. I bring this up to show that while rope can be more efficient then direct electrical system, it may still be the most efficient way to produce the energy into a rope system, but we when we look at these "Alternatives" we have to understand we have to look at them from them from an energy input to energy out put situations, not just a post electrical system.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
2. Interesting.
Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:14 PM
Mar 2013

One of the few places in Delaware worth touring is the Hagley Museum, a monument to the early gunpowder making days of the DuPont empire. It was set on a stretch of and powered by the Brandywine River. They had very sophisticated workshops using water power transmitted by ropes and belts.

http://www.hagley.org/library/exhibits/brandywine/hagleysite.html

phantom power

(25,966 posts)
5. that looks pretty cool...
Tue Mar 26, 2013, 10:32 AM
Mar 2013

My in-laws live a bit south of Rehoboth. Maybe we can drive to the north end and tour it sometime.

When the author mentioned modern materials, it got me thinking that if one ever did want to pursue this kind of approach, it seems like an application that begs for nanotube-based cabling. Assuming somebody learns to manufacture nanotubes in that kind of volume at an affordable price point.

One_Life_To_Give

(6,036 posts)
6. San Francisco Cable Car Barn & Powerhouse
Tue Mar 26, 2013, 11:56 AM
Mar 2013

The SF Cablecars still run by Wire Rope.
You can see a bit of it from the museum walkway. Don't recall if they have a tour for those of us that love to poke around such stuff.

hunter

(38,317 posts)
7. You could launch spacecraft that way too...
Tue Mar 26, 2013, 12:11 PM
Mar 2013


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_loop

The loop is held up by reactive centrifugal force.

The moving "rope" carries the energy equivalent to 350 kilotons of TNT so a serious system failure would be messy.

My own vision of future space exploration is very different. It would be accomplished using very, very small artificially intelligent devices, maybe the size of golf balls at first, but eventually smaller than grains of sand. I'm pretty sure that's why we don't see many "little green men" and their flying saucers. True interstellar travel is accomplished by beings of very little mass, maybe without any electron-proton-neutron matter at all.

Truly galactic intelligences would be diffuse across their galaxies, and "visiting" any particular place would simply be a matter of shifting perspective.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
8. My vision of space exploration is on the other end of the spectrum.
Tue Mar 26, 2013, 01:36 PM
Mar 2013

In another century we'll be exploring the cosmos by remote viewing. That is, some guy takes some mushroom, closes his eyes for a while and then says, "The beings I see on Epsilon Eridani III have a message for you..."

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»The Mechanical Transmissi...