Environment & Energy
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(49,313 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Warpy
(111,286 posts)Unfortunately, the research is happening in China and to a lesser extent, India.
We used to be cutting edge in this country. Then liberals went out of power and conservatives in both parties took over. Conservatives hate change of any type, even progress in technology that will make the world a safer place to live.
I find it very sad.
bananas
(27,509 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)I've yet to see anything other than technical considerations that make the reprocessing difficult, but not impossible.
bananas
(27,509 posts)It has a cult-like following.
hunter
(38,321 posts)tech3149
(4,452 posts)but provided no logic or reasoning to support the viewpoint. I am no supporter of any means of nuclear fuel sources but I do know that LFTR has been demonstrated in the 50's. It is infinitely more scalable than uranium sourced reactors, much less costly to construct, and the fuel has a radioactive life that is much more manageable.
The one and only reason that uranium was chosen as a reactor fuel was that it provided the feeder fuel for nuclear weapons grade plutonium.
God save the MIC!
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Not a big deal. I think LFTR is in the same camp as other far fetched energy solutions (ITAR, National Ignition Facility, Z-Machine, Polywell, etc), but that doesn't mean I dismiss it outright. I think we should be developing all manner of energy technologies. I personally believe all high pressure nuclear reactors should be decommissioned immediately to be replaced with whatever sustainable energy source is available.
bananas
(27,509 posts)LFTR has been demonstrated in the 50's.
MSR's were studied in the 50s through 70s and the demonstration units used Uranium, not Thorium. If the reactor design was so superior, we would have been using LFUR reactors.
It is infinitely more scalable than uranium sourced reactors, much less costly to construct,
Neither of those have been demonstrated at all, the electricity is likely to be more expensive than from LWR's.
the fuel has a radioactive life that is much more manageable
It requires reprocessing and doesn't eliminate the need for geologic storage, making the fuel cycle much more difficult.
The one and only reason that uranium was chosen as a reactor fuel was that it provided the feeder fuel for nuclear weapons grade plutonium.
Nope, that's anti-science historical revisionism - part of the cult-like nature of LFTR advocacy.
One of the most to-the-point explanations was given by the maintainer of the Nuclear Weapons Archive in response to a bullshit Wired article:
Wired Article Errors and Omissions (Score:5, Informative)
by careysub (976506) on Saturday January 02 2010, @01:20PM (#30623708)
The Wired Magazine article presents a false picture of the development of nuclear power and leaves out some crucial facts about thorium reactors. A key fact about thorium reactors mentioned no where in the article: you can't build a reactor, load it with thorium alone, and have it work. It will sit there producing no power forever. This because thorium is only the breeding material and is not fissile. To get the reactor to produce power the thorium has to be mixed with plutonium or U-233 bred in some uranium fueled reactor somewhere, or with highly enriched U-235. In other words - the reactor has to be loaded with bomb-usable material and there has to be a lot of it, enough for hundreds of weapons.
This is part of why the whole quasi-conspiratorial story of "why we didn't go with thorium in the first place" is utter nonsense. It was not because "we wanted bombs instead" and were prejudiced against "superior thorium", it is because only if you have an established nuclear industry cranking out materials usable in bombs by the thousands can you build these reactors in the first place. Either you must have natural/low enriched uranium reactors to produce plutonium, or you need large amounts of highly enriched uranium (prime bomb material) to load into thorium breeders.
Also unacknowledged is that the particular type of reactor being promoted, the molten fluoride salt reactor, was and is a complex technology that requires substantial additional development. Only one single reactor of this kind was ever built, and it was an 8 megawatt (thermal) materials test reactor, not a power reactor. We are looking at many years of additional development before construction can start on a prototype full scale power reactor. I agree that this technology should be further pursued, and it may turn out more successful that plutonium breeders (no successful power plants have been built, just several failures) but it is by no means guaranteed.
Hyman Rickover, by the way, was interested in light water uranium fueled reactors because they are a good technology for powering submarines, not because they produce plutonium (they are lousy plutonium producers, the yield is low and the material produced has terrible properties for bombs).
Check out the 2005 IAEA survey document ( http://www.energyfromthorium.com/pdf/IAEA-TECDOC-1450.pdf ) for a good summary of the thorium technology options and prospects.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Wow, you've really done your work with this one.
From Energy Panel of the French Physics Society (PDF).
And to think, banana's is a very pro-science person and LFTRs would be instrumental toward making RTGs for space probes because they can make a lot of Plutonium-238.
josh states
And to think, banana's is a very pro-science person and LFTRs would be instrumental toward making RTGs for space probes because they can make a lot of Plutonium-238.
As a professional scientist myself, I wouldn't call bananas "very pro-science".
The reason PWRs / BWRs were chosen over LFTRs was basically simplicity. The PWR or BWR is basically a direct replacement for a boiler, and the power companies were used to running boilers. If you have an LFTR with associated reprocessing, then you are basically running a chemical processing plant, which is operationally more complex than running a boiler. It wasn't any type of inferiority of LFTR in terms of fuel cycle for which it was not chosen over PWRs / BWRs. The main reason PWRs / BWRs were chose was due to simplicity.
Plutonium-238 produced by LFTRs is good for RTG because of the heat production. But that's not what you want for a weapon. For a weapon, the property that you want is for the isotope to be "fissile". For Plutonium, the fissile isotope is Plutonium-239, and NOT Plutonium-238.
An LFTR could use the pyroprocessing developed by Argonne National Lab for the Integral Fast Reactor, which you can read about at:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/interviews/till.html
The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson
PamW
PamW
(1,825 posts)tech3149 states
The one and only reason that uranium was chosen as a reactor fuel was that it provided the feeder fuel for nuclear weapons grade plutonium.
That is 100% WRONG if you are saying that is the reason uranium-fueled PWRs / BWRs were chosen as the commercial reactors.
NONE of the plutonium in US nuclear weapons comes from commercial power reactors.
You need to do a little research before accepting the falsehoods from the anti-nukes.
100% of the plutonium in US nuclear weapons came from special "production reactors" owned by the US Government, and located at the Hanford Reservation in Washington State, and at the Savannah River Site near Aiken, South Carolina.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savannah_River_Site
The reactors at Hanford were graphite moderated, and the reactors at Savannah River were heavy water moderated. The PWRs / BWRs that comprise the fleet of commercial power reactors make lousy production reactors.
The US Government did NOT need ANY material from the commercial reactors for the production of nuclear weapons.
Furthermore, both Hanford and Savannah River were shutdown back in the Reagan Administration because the USA had all the plutonium it needed.
The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson
PamW