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GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
Sun Mar 30, 2014, 07:30 PM Mar 2014

James Lovelock: environmentalism has become a religion

Lovelock is being as contrarian as ever

James Lovelock: environmentalism has become a religion

The 94 year-old scientist, famous for his Gaia hypothesis that Earth is a self-regulating, single organism, also said that he had been too certain about the rate of global warming in his past book, that "it’s just as silly to be a [climate] denier as it is to be a believer” and that fracking and nuclear power should power the UK, not renewable sources such as windfarms.

Speaking to the Guardian for an interview ahead of a landmark UN climate science report on Monday on the impacts of climate change, Lovelock said of the warnings of climate catastrophe in his 2006 book, Revenge of Gaia: "I was a little too certain in that book. You just can’t tell what’s going to happen."

Lovelock's comments appear to be at odds with dire forecasts from a report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change on Monday, which leaked versions show will warn that even small temperature rises will bring "abrupt and irreversible changes" to natural systems, including Arctic sea ice and coral reefs.

Talking about the environmental movement, Lovelock says: "It’s become a religion, and religions don’t worry too much about facts." The retired scientist, who worked at the Medical Research Council, describes himself as an "old-fashioned green."

“The government is too frightened to use nuclear, renewables won’t work –because we don’t have enough sun – and we can’t go on burning coal because it produces so much CO2, so that leaves fracking. It produces only a fraction of the amount of CO2 that coal does, and will make Britain secure in energy for quite a few years. We don’t have much choice," he said.
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James Lovelock: environmentalism has become a religion (Original Post) GliderGuider Mar 2014 OP
We don't have enough sun? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2014 #1
For Lovelock, "we" in the article's context means the UK caraher Mar 2014 #3
They can still get more solar power, just indirectly. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2014 #5
Sure (except for tides, which have nothing to do with sunlight) caraher Mar 2014 #8
That only works when the wind is blowing or the waves are coming. OnlinePoker Mar 2014 #20
Well, gloomy fog and rain for now . . . hatrack Mar 2014 #9
That's not the Environmental Defense Fund, it's Electricite de France, a fossil and nuclear company bananas Mar 2014 #13
How embarrassing - sorry! caraher Mar 2014 #14
What an ass. gtar100 Mar 2014 #2
You have to understand he's talking about the UK caraher Mar 2014 #4
Lovelock is wrong, he says "renewables won’t work –because we don’t have enough sun" bananas Mar 2014 #15
I can think of worse religions to have. bloom Mar 2014 #6
I'm here with my 94 yr old dad, roody Mar 2014 #7
The Gaia hypothesis is pseudoscience nonsense. ForgoTheConsequence Mar 2014 #10
That religion called survival KT2000 Mar 2014 #11
Science and analysis is difficult, religion is easy. hunter Mar 2014 #12
Yeah, not so much....I started his book Gaia and stopped reading right after the pro-nuke stance... truebrit71 Mar 2014 #16
Coal is "the most dangerous and toxic method of power generation known to man" by far. hunter Mar 2014 #17
Whilst I can't argue that you could be right looking at things by scale... truebrit71 Mar 2014 #18
Nukes are an inherently risky proposition in a collapse-prone world. GliderGuider Mar 2014 #19

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
1. We don't have enough sun?
Sun Mar 30, 2014, 07:39 PM
Mar 2014

Good Lord, the sun puts out tons more energy than we ever use. Even on earth, a relatively tiny percentage of the land surface would generate all of the electric needs for the entire planet. And they're constantly working out designs that make collecting solar energy ever more efficient, even when you can't even see the sun through overcast.

I don't know that Lovelock is keeping up with engineering in the field of solar collection and energy storage. There are amazing changes coming out every year, even if they haven't made it into production yet.

caraher

(6,278 posts)
3. For Lovelock, "we" in the article's context means the UK
Sun Mar 30, 2014, 07:53 PM
Mar 2014

You know, the islands famed for gloomy fog and rain. The Environmental Defense Fund's estimate of what the UK could get for solar is less than half its current electricity production, and I'm aware of no estimates that change the picture substantially.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
5. They can still get more solar power, just indirectly.
Sun Mar 30, 2014, 07:58 PM
Mar 2014

Wave and wind power is just solar at a remove. From that same link, flip down to the 'marine challenge'.

caraher

(6,278 posts)
8. Sure (except for tides, which have nothing to do with sunlight)
Sun Mar 30, 2014, 09:41 PM
Mar 2014

But ordinarily, when people refer to solar they implicitly mean things like PV panels, water heaters and concentrated solar. If you push things too far you're in the realm of calling fossil fuels "stored solar" because ultimately all that chemical energy came from sunlight (again, "solar at a remove&quot .

Nevertheless, your expanded point, that renewables could supply much of the UK's electricity, does stand, as does Lovelock's narrower point. Another issue is that electricity is only part of the energy consumption picture - the need will be to replace present energy consumption in all forms, including liquid fuels, with renewables and reductions in consumption. It's not enough to simply change over to new sources of electricity... which is probably a big part of Lovelock's pessimistic assessment.

OnlinePoker

(5,721 posts)
20. That only works when the wind is blowing or the waves are coming.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 05:58 PM
Mar 2014

Today, for instance, wind has sat at about 4% of total generated electricity. There were a couple of times this month when it was down to zero. The vast majority of U.K. power comes from either Coal or Gas.

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

hatrack

(59,587 posts)
9. Well, gloomy fog and rain for now . . .
Sun Mar 30, 2014, 09:54 PM
Mar 2014

We'll see (record flooding notwithstanding) what comes next.

Speaking of which, here's an article about wine from Scotland:

Thanks to climate change, Christopher Trotter will make history later this year by pairing a Scottish white wine with the local spoots.

The razor clams harvested from the nearby shores of the North Sea will go down nicely with the first bottles from Trotter’s vineyard north of Edinburgh. The 2014 vintage will be special for Scotland, where Highlanders have distilled whisky and brewed ale for centuries.

“Scotland has probably been more of a beer-drinking nation than anything else,” said Trotter, a chef and food writer. Wine hasn’t been part of the culture, he said, “until now.”

Trotter might as well pour a splash on the ground in memory of a vanishing world. Climate change, which scientists say is caused by heat-trapping gas accumulating in the atmosphere, is transforming dinner tables and scrambling traditions in the $270 billion global wine industry.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-26/raise-a-glass-of-scottish-wine-to-global-climate-changes.html

bananas

(27,509 posts)
13. That's not the Environmental Defense Fund, it's Electricite de France, a fossil and nuclear company
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 01:35 AM
Mar 2014


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDF_Energy

EDF Energy is an integrated energy company in the United Kingdom, with operations spanning electricity generation and the sale of gas and electricity to homes and businesses throughout the United Kingdom. It employs 13,158 people and handles 5.7 million customer accounts.[1][2]

<snip>

EDF Energy Customers (trading as EDF Energy) is wholly owned by the French state-owned EDF SA[3] (Électricité de France) and was formed in 2002 following the acquisition and mergers of SEEBOARD Plc (formerly the South Eastern Electricity Board), London Electricity Plc (formerly the London Electricity Board or LEB), SWEB Energy Plc (formerly the South Western Electricity Board) and two coal-fired power stations and a combined cycle gas turbine (CCGT) power station.

In 2009, EDF Energy took control of the UK nuclear generator, British Energy, buying share capital from the government. This made EDF Energy one of the UK's largest generators,[2] as well as the largest distribution network operator.

<snip>


It's also on the website you linked to under "About Us":

http://www.edfenergy.com/about-us/about-edf-energy/

<snip>

EDF Energy is one of the UK’s largest energy companies and its largest producer of low-carbon electricity. A wholly-owned subsidiary of the EDF Group, one of Europe's largest energy groups, we generate around one fifth of the UK's electricity and employ around 15,000 people. We supply electricity and gas to around 5.5 million residential and business customers, making us the biggest supplier of electricity by volume.

The company is organised into the following business units:

Nuclear Generation operates eight nuclear power stations in the UK with a combined capacity of over 9 million kilowatts – electricity that is vital to the UK economy.

Nuclear New Build is tasked with the delivery of the new generation of nuclear plants in line with EDF’s global programme of producing safe, affordable, reliable, low-carbon electricity in the UK.

Energy Sourcing and Customer Supply runs power stations and wind farms, buys and sells power to meet future generation and customer needs and deals with all our energy customers.

Our history »
EDF Energy as we know it today was born in 2003, but our history actually began years before.

Who owns us »
We are part of EDF Group, one of the three largest energy companies in Europe.


<snip>

caraher

(6,278 posts)
14. How embarrassing - sorry!
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 06:53 AM
Mar 2014

The numbers do jibe with what I've seen elsewhere, but that was inexcusably careless of me...

gtar100

(4,192 posts)
2. What an ass.
Sun Mar 30, 2014, 07:42 PM
Mar 2014

I can do just fine going about my day not knowing what this guy says. Now I know for sure he's not worth listening to.

caraher

(6,278 posts)
4. You have to understand he's talking about the UK
Sun Mar 30, 2014, 07:55 PM
Mar 2014

He's right that solar is not going to cut it, alone, for the UK, unless they're running transmission lines to North Africa

bananas

(27,509 posts)
15. Lovelock is wrong, he says "renewables won’t work –because we don’t have enough sun"
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 10:09 AM
Mar 2014

Offshore wind by itself could power the UK many times over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_Kingdom

An estimate of the theoretical maximum potential of the United Kingdom's offshore wind resource in all waters to 700 metres (2,300 ft) depth gives the average power as 2200 GW.[28]


Here's the source they reference:

http://www.claverton-energy.com/two-terawatts-average-power-output-the-uk-offshore-wind-resource.html

Two Terawatts average power output: the UK offshore wind resource

Andrew Smith September 30, 2009

<snip>

So, all together, that gives approximately 2,200 GWe, or 2.2 TWe.

For context, current UK energy demand (electricity + heat + transport) is about 0.25 TW, and current UK electricity demand is about 0.04 TWe.

<snip>

bloom

(11,635 posts)
6. I can think of worse religions to have.
Sun Mar 30, 2014, 08:07 PM
Mar 2014

And just because people are passionate about our environment does not mean we/they are ignoring facts.

hunter

(38,316 posts)
12. Science and analysis is difficult, religion is easy.
Sun Mar 30, 2014, 11:59 PM
Mar 2014

Environmentalism has many "religious" cults. Nature won't pay attention to any of them.

 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
16. Yeah, not so much....I started his book Gaia and stopped reading right after the pro-nuke stance...
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 02:22 PM
Mar 2014

...and anti-solar/wind stance became too much to stomach...What the hell is the point of trying to save the planet from catastrophic heat increases if we do it using the most dangerous and toxic method of power generation known to man?

Glad I bought it as an e-book on Amazon and didn't waste a couple of trees in the process..

Oh, and that whole 'we don't have enough sun' line....*ahem* what about Germany?

hunter

(38,316 posts)
17. Coal is "the most dangerous and toxic method of power generation known to man" by far.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 03:09 PM
Mar 2014

Your religion is showing.

No, this is not a pro nuclear post. I hate all the large scale stuff -- dams, fossil fuels, nuclear power, wind and solar "farms," biofuels, tidal power, automobiles, superhighways.

We ought to be tearing crap down, not building more crap. Building more crap, being "productive," having too many kids, that's how we got into this mess.



 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
18. Whilst I can't argue that you could be right looking at things by scale...
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 03:20 PM
Mar 2014

...but if we went on Lovelock's direction and built nothing but nukes and one or two went all Fukushima on us, then all the "non-carbon" energy talk would be out the window because we'd all be glowing in the dark..

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
19. Nukes are an inherently risky proposition in a collapse-prone world.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 03:45 PM
Mar 2014

Since I believe the whole house of cards that is global techno-industrial civ is at increasing risk of collapse, I think nukes are a terrible idea. And of course fossil fuel is what's killing us to begin with.

Decentralized renewable energy production has one unique quality that I haven't seen discussed much: it scales down much better than hydro, coal or nuclear. So if the population of the USA were to drop back below 100 million later in the century, with economic activity more reminiscent of 1820 than 2020, an energy infrastructure based on solar and wind would be much easier to tailor.

Which of course still leaves the transportation problem and the climate change timeline...

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