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Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 08:36 PM Mar 2016

Syrian army's recapture of Palmyra may mean Isis has lost the battle – but it's not lost the war yet

The successful advance of the army marks an important moment for Assad, but it will be difficult for to them to gain much ground further east


A Syrian soldier celebrates on the outskirts of Palmyra Getty Images


Patrick Cockburn

Sunday 27 March 2016

The recapture of Palmyra by the Syrian army is an important defeat for Isis, but does not mean it is disintegrating as it is pressed back into the self-declared Caliphate.

Although Isis is reported to have left the bodies of 400 of its fighters in and around the ancient city, it appears to have withdrawn most of its forces before they were destroyed. This is inkeeping with its tactics over the last year whereby it does not fight to the last man defending fixed positions against prolonged air strikes by Russian and US-led aircraft.

The successful advance of the Syrian army – though just how far it is in control of the Palmyra area is still unclear – marks an important victory for President Bashar al-Assad just as the loss of the city ten months ago underlined the ebbing strength of his forces. The reversal of his military fortunes stem from the start of the Russian air campaign on 30 September last year and a less well-publicised increase in support from the Shia axis led by Iran and including Hezbollah in Lebanon and Iraqi paramilitary units. Despite the official end of Russian military intervention, its aircraft evidently played a central role in retaking the city.

A striking feature of the Isis victory in May last year was that its fighters were able to advance without being bombarded by US aircraft because the US did not want to be accused of doing anything that would help the Assad government, whom it accused of never fighting Isis. The claim was in part propagandistic since the Syrian army had suffered a series of defeats at the hands of Isis in 2014 as was shown by Isis atrocity videos in which Syrian soldiers taken prisoner are shown being decapitated or shot.

remainder: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syrian-armys-recapture-of-palmyra-may-mean-isis-has-lost-the-battle-but-its-not-lost-the-war-yet-a6955521.html
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Syrian army's recapture of Palmyra may mean Isis has lost the battle – but it's not lost the war yet (Original Post) Jefferson23 Mar 2016 OP
It will be interesting to see how far Assad pushes his luck, and whether Russia supports him, bemildred Mar 2016 #1
This is commentary from a reddit member, right? If so, that's pretty darn good. n/t Jefferson23 Mar 2016 #3
Yeah, not bad. Crude but effective. nt bemildred Mar 2016 #6
When the Necessary Is Impossible -- Thomas L. Friedman MARCH 30, 2016 bemildred Mar 2016 #2
Maybe he finally has removed the fog from his brain....I could never figure Jefferson23 Mar 2016 #4
He has friends in high places, as I understand it. bemildred Mar 2016 #5

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
1. It will be interesting to see how far Assad pushes his luck, and whether Russia supports him,
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 09:53 PM
Mar 2016

if he does. I'm guessing he will stop now, while the talks proceed.

I think the question right now is whether Erdogan and the Sauds will take one last stab at a military solution.

From reddit:


There are also a lot of unwritten rules. Invasion is not one thing. It can happen in a milion ways. Each one can have its own level of severity and justify its own set of retaliations. War can be fucking complex. A good example is that no one gives much of a shit about planes bombing ISIS even if it is technically illegal.

You are right though, going against Assad is very likely to invoke a hefty response. If Turkey does that it will likely go out of its way to do things in a tricky way that makes a response difficult. I would love to see Russia fuck them royally but while I understand many of Russia's concerns their POV might be different as the ones who actually have to make the decision to commit to action.

Iran is unlikely to do shit on its own when it comes to total war however if Russia goes full scale war then you can expect Iran to be somewhat likely to also bring its full forces to bear. The state Iraq is in means Iran could probably get away with just waltzing its whole army across. Iraq isn't happy with Turkish incursions either.

The domestic situation in Turkey can be exploited as well. Erdogan isn't that popular with an uprising against him well justified. You also have unstable elements internally that can challenge the state such as the Kurdish situation.

Russia is also going to be a big Devil's advocate to Greece as well to fuck things up in the west for Turkey since Greece is fucked with the EU anyway. It is in a situation where its alignment could be shifted and has grievances against Turkey. Armenia as well and you can guess where Russian troops will come from.

The problem is that the potential threat of that might not be enough to deter Turkey. All this rationalisation is pointless when discussing insane leaders like Erdogan whose modus operandi is self deception.

It doesn't help that Turkey also has a defence guarantee from NATO. If Turkey sends 100000 troops marching into Syria and they get tactically nuked into dust then tough luck. But if Russia might invade Turkey or take territory from it then NATO might step in with the idea of that being a limited war. Russia will be allowed to defend Syria. NATO will be allowed to defend Turkey. But they wont be allowed to attack either state of the opposing states they are supporting their state against directly. Those are the default and standing rules of engagement at present as the situation prescribes.

The bases in Turkey are locked in to this. Turkey has shields in many of its bases. If to defend Syria Russia has to hit Turkish bases in Turkish territory to for example stop Turkey projecting air power over Syria (Saudi involvement will make the air battle much harder for Russia) keeping in mind Turkey will also be hitting Syrian air bases then Russia may have to strike bases containing foreign NATO assets and personelle thus destroying them and greatly involving NATO as a whole in the affair. NATO is also a bit stuck there because it is there as a large multinational force committed to fighting ISIS. If Turkey sends in ground forces then Russia is almost certainly going to want to hit those forces with air. If Russia starts destroying the invading army with air Turkey is going to want to event things out with its own air engagement. There is going to be a good chance that to deal with that Russia will need to take out Turkish airbases and wham.

It is very hard for Turkey to not suck NATO into that in someway that protects Turkey from that ultimate national sacrifice if it happens. Losing troops is one thing. They are expendable at the end of the day. They care but nothing eternally damages like losing territory or being completely invaded or destroyed does. Although given Turkish pride we could be fucked in such a scenario as they might have problems with things such as accepting defeat.


https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/4cgvmw/pentagon_pulling_military_families_out_of_turkey/

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
2. When the Necessary Is Impossible -- Thomas L. Friedman MARCH 30, 2016
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 07:43 AM
Mar 2016
This sort of adds to Cockburn's view.

Friedman appears to be attempting a return to journalism here, I can only applaud.


---

Obama has my sympathies. If you think there is a simple answer to this problem, you ought to come out here for a week. Just trying to figure out the differences among the Kurdish parties and militias in Syria and Iraq — the Y.P.G., P.Y.D., P.U.K., K.D.P. and P.K.K. — took me a day.

---

And here is another not so fun fact from Northern Iraq: Despite all that you have read about “foreign fighters” who have joined ISIS, a vast majority of the people in Kirkuk Province who have come to fight with ISIS were local Sunnis, who saw ISIS as a force protecting them from the pro-Iranian Shiite government in Baghdad. Or, they were more impoverished Sunnis who saw joining ISIS as a way of gaining power over wealthier, upper-class Sunnis.

Also, many Sunni tribes in the Mosul area split, with some members joining ISIS and others not. Kurdish intelligence officials tell me there will be a lot of revenge against those Sunnis who joined ISIS, exacted by those who didn’t — if and when ISIS is defeated. Women from Iraq’s Yazidi sect who were captured and raped by ISIS fighters and eventually escaped to refugee camps in Kurdistan have told Kurdish relief workers that in more than a few cases they were raped, not by some foreign fighters from Chechnya or Libya, but by Iraqi Sunnis from their own hometowns. “They will never trust their neighbors again,” an aid worker told me.

I don’t know anymore what is sufficient to eradicate ISIS — and create a decent order in its place — but it is obvious what is necessary: The struggle between Sunnis and Shiites, fueled by Saudi Arabia and Iran, has to be tempered.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/30/opinion/when-the-necessary-is-impossible.html

If the US foreign policy wonks have come to the conclusion that fueling the shi'ia-sunni split is a stupid idea, that would be a very positive development.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
4. Maybe he finally has removed the fog from his brain....I could never figure
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 11:02 AM
Mar 2016

out why anyone pays him for what he thinks.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
5. He has friends in high places, as I understand it.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 11:16 AM
Mar 2016

I take him as sort of an outlet for the beltway/corporate view on what we out here in TV land ought to think. Although after a while there he just became unreadable. But if he were to get back to reporting basics, he could still be useful for that.

If they think that we ought to think that the shi'ia & sunni ought to make up, that would be a good sign.

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