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Israeli

(4,151 posts)
Tue Apr 21, 2015, 03:26 AM Apr 2015

The 67 Israeli soldiers who fell during Gaza war died in vain

This Memorial Day, families will mourn the 67 soldiers killed in Gaza over the summer. Forget the cliches about heroism. Israel was not dragged against its will into the conflict.

By Iris Leal

This year, the state ceremony in honor of Memorial Day will be attended for the first time by 67 families that have lost loved ones in Operation Protective Edge in Gaza over the summer, that have spent the past few months in the wasteland of mourning, where nothing but pain grows.

For those whose loved ones are buried in civilian cemeteries, the army will send a cantor who, in chanting the El Maleh Rahamim funeral prayer, will represent army, state and religion. The military cemeteries will be filled with soldiers standing at attention who, like many of the fallen, are young and innocent and apparently overly eager to give their lives for the sake of their country.

Every possible effort will be made to obscure the blame for this day. All possible means will be utilized to blur the crying waste of these absurd violent deaths; they will be presented as part of some grand national plan that is more important even than the dead themselves. To lessen the insipidity that has infected every corner of our lives since last summer, suffocating cliches about heroism will be spouted and the entire nation will speak with great emotion through the mouths of the president, the prime minister and the defense minister, promising the grief-stricken families that their dead children were the children of all of us, that the families will never be abandoned and will not be left alone in their grief.

But they will, in fact, be left alone in their grief. They have been alone for a long time already.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.652756
58 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The 67 Israeli soldiers who fell during Gaza war died in vain (Original Post) Israeli Apr 2015 OP
more......... Israeli Apr 2015 #1
By posting the whole article nobody needs pay Haaretz to read the article King_David Apr 2015 #13
They can read the article or free by signing up to Haaretz too azurnoir Apr 2015 #14
Yes 10 articles a month free and when your done if you want to bypass the paywall King_David Apr 2015 #15
Your complaints are noted. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #17
Are you an Admin here King_David Apr 2015 #18
Don't worry, dave, it'll be aright. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #19
thanks for the legal advice dave shaayecanaan Apr 2015 #50
That's a pretty controversial piece, but I agree. Little Tich Apr 2015 #2
Are you boycotting this author? oberliner Apr 2015 #3
Nope .... Israeli Apr 2015 #16
Your description of Israel reminds me of post-WWI-Germany. DetlefK Apr 2015 #4
Boycotting Jewish Stores and businesses is WW2 King_David Apr 2015 #21
You are right: Institutionalized discrimimination in Israel really reminds me of the 1930s. DetlefK Apr 2015 #22
"stuffing people into ghettos because they are of a different ethnicity..." oberliner Apr 2015 #24
This was not a war of necessity, it was a war of choice azurnoir Apr 2015 #5
How many rocket attacks have their been since then? oberliner Apr 2015 #6
do you support Israel's action during Protective Edge? Hamas had kept the 2012 ceasefire azurnoir Apr 2015 #7
Nope oberliner Apr 2015 #8
Then you agree that Hamas kept the 2012 cease fire until Israel began it's attacks? azurnoir Apr 2015 #9
No oberliner Apr 2015 #10
Did Hamas take responsibility for attacks prior to late June 2014 or was it splinter groupss such as azurnoir Apr 2015 #12
so you disapprove of Israel's actions but approve of what they "accomplised"? azurnoir Apr 2015 #23
Yes, they did die in vain. Another war initiated by Hamas will break out.... shira Apr 2015 #11
Israel DOES need a better plan guillaumeb Apr 2015 #25
Without a peace treaty, such a pullout will make things worse shira Apr 2015 #26
The "goal" in your words, guillaumeb Apr 2015 #28
Israel has already offered 2 peaceful solutions based on International Law.... shira Apr 2015 #30
If the Israelis had actually ever offered to comply with International Law, guillaumeb Apr 2015 #31
They did, based on UNSCR 242. As for land swaps, both Abbas & the Saudi Plan.... shira Apr 2015 #32
Actually, YOU first mentioned RoR in your previous post. guillaumeb Apr 2015 #33
I asked u about Palestinian RoR. It's fantasy, correct? shira Apr 2015 #34
My interpretation of UNSCR 242 is the clear language guillaumeb Apr 2015 #35
It's clearly not. Otherwise, everyone would be calling for that... shira Apr 2015 #36
Or you have no grasp of what I said. guillaumeb Apr 2015 #37
Israel, like every other country on the planet, gets to determine.... shira Apr 2015 #38
Israel allows all Jews, no matter the country of origin, guillaumeb Apr 2015 #39
So what does that have to do with the alleged RoR? shira Apr 2015 #40
Would you describe the US as guillaumeb Apr 2015 #41
USA = White Christianistan? No. And there's part of your problem... shira Apr 2015 #46
In your "free nation" sentence, you left out one group. guillaumeb Apr 2015 #47
Free, as in open society, liberal, western. shira Apr 2015 #55
Two minor points guillaumeb Apr 2015 #56
1. Israel's non-Jews are guaranteed equal rights by law shira Apr 2015 #57
I might agree with point number 1, guillaumeb Apr 2015 #58
"abandoning all territory seized from Palestine and Syria" oberliner Apr 2015 #27
Is your question serious? guillaumeb Apr 2015 #29
East Jerusalem was seized from Jordan, wasn't it? oberliner Apr 2015 #42
define seized. guillaumeb Apr 2015 #43
However you wish to define it oberliner Apr 2015 #44
I would define inhabitants as the people originally inhabiting the area prior guillaumeb Apr 2015 #45
Recommend...great read, thank you. n/t Jefferson23 Apr 2015 #20
April 21st: Joint Israeli-Palestinian Memorial Day event Jefferson23 Apr 2015 #48
Further Jefferson..... Israeli Apr 2015 #49
It is so tragic there is only a minority support, but it is there and should be acknowledged and Jefferson23 Apr 2015 #51
acknowledge it now Jefferson..... Israeli Apr 2015 #52
How anyone expects a bantustan to be the future state for the Palestinians and that peace Jefferson23 Apr 2015 #53
Bibi and Bennett have already won .... Israeli Apr 2015 #54

Israeli

(4,151 posts)
1. more.........
Tue Apr 21, 2015, 03:28 AM
Apr 2015

Isolation is one of the unique characteristics of bereavement. But what is surprising, breathtakingly cruel is the fact that the families of the deceased soldiers were shamefully and collectively abandoned by a majority of this merciful and compassionate nation — which is wiping away tears of feigned solidarity as if it hadn’t, just one month earlier, reelected those responsible for the disgrace of last summer’s war in Gaza without a second thought, voicing its confidence in the very leadership that brought this disaster down upon their heads.

By the time the Memorial Day siren sounds tonight, passing like a death keen through the length and breadth of the land, the truth will have been known long since: Israel was not dragged against its will into the conflict with Hamas this summer.

During Operation Brother’s Keeper, which preceded the Gaza war, Israel sought escalation, doing everything in its power to ensure an outbreak of fighting by acting in the West Bank with a brutality that went beyond the effort to locate the three Israeli teens who had been kidnapped while trying to hitch a ride. But that didn’t bring an end to terrorism. The army’s bombings were pointless, failing to reduce the rocket fire; repeated operations in Gaza do not and never did have the power to create deterrence, but have succeeded magnificently in bringing about a reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas — an alliance that is undesirable for Israel, and whose dismantlement was one of the declared, and unachieved, goals of last summer’s war. Like a snake biting its own tail, every round of fighting has created a problem that the next round has failed to fix.

Israel’s citizens, who once again voted for someone who promised zero diplomatic vision and a cast-iron rejection of any agreement, still believe that with all the pain, it was the reality created by the Palestinians that took the lives of Israel’s fallen. True, even they know that not much time will pass until the next round of violence, but nevertheless, from one election to the next, they cling to the idea that there’s no choice because there’s no partner, as if this had the power to save them.


If any hope exists on this day then, it is the hope that perhaps a single soldier stationed at one of the many memorial ceremonies somewhere in the country will be unable to overcome his curiosity, and will peek at the stricken faces of these families. And when his eyes momentarily meet the grief-laden eyes of a mother, he will lower his own in embarrassment, and for an instant, a single picture will flash into his head: that of his own mother kneeling at his grave. And for one brief moment, the recognition of this possibility of nothingness will freeze his blood.

Source: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.652756

King_David

(14,851 posts)
13. By posting the whole article nobody needs pay Haaretz to read the article
Tue Apr 21, 2015, 01:31 PM
Apr 2015

As they can read this copyright article here on DU for free... DU members and non members alike.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
15. Yes 10 articles a month free and when your done if you want to bypass the paywall
Tue Apr 21, 2015, 01:41 PM
Apr 2015

And not pay for this copyright material read it on DU?

King_David

(14,851 posts)
18. Are you an Admin here
Tue Apr 21, 2015, 05:11 PM
Apr 2015

I'm sure they will be happy that your taking on their liability here and well documented too... Good on you.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
2. That's a pretty controversial piece, but I agree.
Tue Apr 21, 2015, 05:28 AM
Apr 2015

Netanyahu was chomping at the bit to have go at Gaza, and he intentionally put Hamas in situation where an escalation had to happen. If Netanyahu had acted differently, 3 Israelis would still have been murdered, but there would have been no war.

Israeli

(4,151 posts)
16. Nope ....
Tue Apr 21, 2015, 03:37 PM
Apr 2015

.......oberliner the obtuse.

Are you trying to educate me about " my people " now ? .....most amusing.
I know who Iris Leal is ...thank you anyway.

We at Gush Shalom boycott settlement products and have done since our conception , along with thousands of like minded Israelis .

I'm sure I have posted this before ...but ...just for you ..one more time ...cant hurt , can it ?

Boycott = anti-Semitism? Some Israelis avoid settlement products too

There are no official figures, but probably thousands of Israeli consumers check the labels before they buy.

By Judy Maltz | Feb. 24, 2014

Long before Scarlett Johansson came under international fire for promoting the West Bank SodaStream factory, these Israelis were getting their seltzer elsewhere.

And long before world Jewish leaders pronounced the international boycott movement anti-Semitism in its latest manifestation , these Israelis steered clear of products sold by Jewish-owned businesses located beyond the country’s internationally recognized borders.

It’s hard to know their exact numbers, but they are boycotters too, many for as long as they can remember: These Israelis do not, as a matter of principle, buy goods or produce from Jewish settlements in the occupied territories.

Vardit Shalfy, a theater director from Tel Aviv, not only checks every label carefully when she does her own supermarket shopping, but she also makes a point of alerting other customers who might not be aware that what they’re throwing into their carts was made in contested territory. “I’m absolutely shameless about it,” she acknowledges, “and very often, I get people to return products to the shelves. They simply didn’t know until I told them that what they were about to buy was made in the settlements and that by buying it they are supporting the occupation. Once, a woman almost smacked me, but more often than not, people listen.”

If she’s invited to an event where food is being served, says Shalfy, she has no qualms about calling over the chef to ascertain where exactly the ingredients in each dish came from. At the home of an acquaintance, she recounts, she once noticed her daughter innocently take a bite out of a cookie made by a factory in the East Jerusalem industrial park of Atarot. “I pulled it out of her mouth and reminded her that we don’t eat such things,” she says.

Netta Hazan, a facilitator for interfaith groups who lives in Jerusalem, admits she doesn’t take things that far. “I’m not going to lie and say that I check every label, and it’s not that I never drank something made with SodaStream, but if I know something’s made in a Jewish settlement, I won’t buy it,” she says. “On the other hand, I do make a point of buying things in Bethlehem in order to support the Palestinian economy.”

In 2006, Gush Shalom, the peace activist group headed by Uri Avnery, published a list of several hundred products made in areas beyond the Green Line. The list, comprised of many food products, also includes businesses operating in the Golan Heights. Among the best-known names on the list, aside from SodaStream, are the Ahava skin-care products manufacturer and the Golan Wineries.

In July 2011 the Knesset passed the so-called “anti-boycott law,” which penalizes persons or organizations who call for a boycott of Israel or the settlements. A group of human rights and minority rights organizations, including Gush Shalom, petitioned the High Court of Justice saying it was unconstitutional, and a first hearing in the case was held last week.

After the law was passed, Gush Shalom, concerned that it might be sued for heavy damages under the law, removed the list from its website. But that same list is being hosted today on the website of the Israeli social-democratic movement.


Adam Keller, the spokesman of Gush Shalom, estimates that “tens of thousands” of Israelis who oppose the occupation boycott products from the settlements. “I’m basing that on the number of people who downloaded the list from our site when it was still up and the number who’ve signed up to receive our pamphlets,” he says. Two prominent cases of Israeli companies that moved their factories “back home,” as he puts it, in response to pressure from the boycotters are the Barkan wine producer and the Bagel Bagel pretzel maker.

Although Gush Shalom wholeheartedly supports the boycott of products made in the settlements, Keller notes, it does not support the BDS movement and its call to boycott Israel as a whole. The organization’s boycott initiative, he says, was prompted by a desire to make the public aware that being a peace activist is not only about attending demonstrations. “You can also help promote peace through your consumer decisions.”

After the anti-boycott law was passed, Israeli left-wing organizations that support a boycott of settlement products were certain they’d be sued left and right, says Keller. But it never happened. “To date, there has not even been one lawsuit filed,” he notes.

Longtime peace activist Naftali Raz, who heads the social-democratic movement Massad, believes the other side feared testing the constitutionality of the law. “My speculation is that they went to lawyers who told them they would be idiots to bring this to court,” he says.

Asked why not one suit was brought against those calling for a boycott of their businesses, Yigal Dilmoni, deputy director of the Yesha Council, the organization that advocates on behalf of the settlements, said: “The leftist organizations sitting in Tel Aviv have lots of money and time on their hands, and we do not.”

In response to the anti-boycott law, Raz organized a petition in July 2011 that was signed by several hundred prominent Israelis, among them former heads of the security services, former cabinet ministers, professors, scientists, artists and writers. In the petition, the signatories declared their support for boycotting products from the settlements and said they would be willing to sit in jail rather than pay any fines, should they be found guilty of violating the law through their endorsement.

Raz puts the number of Israelis who boycott products from the settlements at “many thousands.”

In the past few years, Gush Shalom and the social democratic movement have been joined by several Hebrew-language Facebook groups that support boycotting products from the settlements, the most popular being “Sue me, I boycott settlement products,” which had almost 8,500 followers at the last count.

As Keller notes, it’s not always simple to ascertain where a product has been made and now that supermarkets in Europe have begun to mark merchandise made in the settlements, many business have an incentive to cover their tracks. For some, it’s a simple as setting up an address or office inside the Green Line. SodaStream’s corporate headquarters, for example, are located right near Ben-Gurion International Airport.

“We put a lot of detective work into putting together our list,” he says. “We used to have a full-time employee who did all the research for us, but we can’t afford it anymore so it’s all based on volunteers. One of the tell-tale signs we’ve discovered with food products is the address of the Rabbinate providing the Kashrut certificate. If it’s an address in the territories, that’s a good indication to us that the product is also being made in the territories.”

Another problem, he notes, arises from “the overlap between those who oppose the occupation and those who are ethical about what they eat,” because many of the organic and free-range products found in Israeli supermarkets and specialty stores come from the settlements.

Roy Yellin, a media consultant based in Tel Aviv, says that just as he wouldn’t purchase products manufactured by child laborers or those harmful to the environment, he doesn’t purchase products made in the settlements. “As someone who lives in this country, I’m forced to contribute to the settlement enterprise through the taxes I pay which support the economy there,” he says. “So at least in this way, through the decisions I make about what I consume, I can refrain from making any further contributions.”

After Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other Israeli leaders called the international boycott movement anti-Semitism, says Yellin, “I felt it was really important for people to know that there are people in Israel who support the boycott, and that it doesn’t mean that they’re anti-Semites but rather that they oppose the continued occupation.”


Tamar Zandberg, a Knesset member from the left-wing Meretz party, says her refusal to buy products from the settlements is “my own personal way of showing my deep opposition to the government policy that established the settlements and my refusal to be part of it.”

The recent “hysterical denouncements” of boycott supporters by Israeli government leaders, she says, “is like saying that the mirror is crooked when it’s your face that’s ugly.”

Asked to comment on those Israelis who boycott settlement products, Dilmoni said: “Those who embrace boycotts are those who have failed in every other way to get their political message across. Whoever supports a boycott against the settlements shouldn’t be surprised if ultimately the boycott targets them.”

He said the boycott did not have a “significant” effect on businesses in the settlements. “For every factory that moved out, others have come in their place,” he said.

Source: http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/.premium-1.575929

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
4. Your description of Israel reminds me of post-WWI-Germany.
Tue Apr 21, 2015, 06:18 AM
Apr 2015

The notion that the failure is not their fault. "Dolchtoßlegende"
It's the fault of others. If only we were allowed to keep doing our thing, everything would have worked out.

The feeling of being surrounded by enemies, of being under permanent siege, amplified in recent years by the BDS-movement.

The fanaticism. The scapegoating.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
22. You are right: Institutionalized discrimimination in Israel really reminds me of the 1930s.
Wed Apr 22, 2015, 05:13 AM
Apr 2015

I didn't want to go there, but as you bring it up...
I think, stuffing people into ghettos because they are of a different ethnicity is wrong.
I think, state-sanctioned destruction of private property of a particular ethnicity is wrong.
I think, laws specifically tailored to make life worse for a specific ethnicity are wrong.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
24. "stuffing people into ghettos because they are of a different ethnicity..."
Wed Apr 22, 2015, 06:16 AM
Apr 2015

Amazing that this is what some people actually believe.

And it "reminds" people of the 1930s....

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
5. This was not a war of necessity, it was a war of choice
Tue Apr 21, 2015, 11:30 AM
Apr 2015

with unforeseen consequences

During Operation Brother’s Keeper, which preceded the Gaza war, Israel sought escalation, doing everything in its power to ensure an outbreak of fighting by acting in the West Bank with a brutality that went beyond the effort to locate the three Israeli teens who had been kidnapped while trying to hitch a ride. But that didn’t bring an end to terrorism. The army’s bombings were pointless, failing to reduce the rocket fire; repeated operations in Gaza do not and never did have the power to create deterrence, but have succeeded magnificently in bringing about a reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas — an alliance that is undesirable for Israel, and whose dismantlement was one of the declared, and unachieved, goals of last summer’s war. Like a snake biting its own tail, every round of fighting has created a problem that the next round has failed to fix.


http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.652756

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
7. do you support Israel's action during Protective Edge? Hamas had kept the 2012 ceasefire
Tue Apr 21, 2015, 11:41 AM
Apr 2015

also until Israel's actions during Brothers Keeper

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
8. Nope
Tue Apr 21, 2015, 11:57 AM
Apr 2015

I opposed it from the beginning as you know. That does not mean that I don't think it achieved any of its objectives.

You must admit that Israel has dealt with far fewer rocket attacks from say 2012-today than from 2009-2011, yes?

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
10. No
Tue Apr 21, 2015, 12:02 PM
Apr 2015

There were a lot fewer but they did throw in a few rocket attacks here and there. Nothing like the two years previous, though.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
12. Did Hamas take responsibility for attacks prior to late June 2014 or was it splinter groupss such as
Tue Apr 21, 2015, 12:10 PM
Apr 2015

Islamic Jihad ect?

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
11. Yes, they did die in vain. Another war initiated by Hamas will break out....
Tue Apr 21, 2015, 12:07 PM
Apr 2015

Hamas can't wait to attack Israel's civilians again, either with rockets or via the new tunnels they dug since Israel destroyed what was there last summer.

Another repeat of the 2009, 2012, and 2014 wars. Perhaps this summer, maybe next.

Israel needs a better plan against Hamas.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
25. Israel DOES need a better plan
Wed Apr 22, 2015, 01:55 PM
Apr 2015

It is a return to the pre-1967 borders, abandoning all territory seized from Palestine and Syria, with reparations paid for all destruction to Palestinian homes, schools, hospitals, and far assets.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
26. Without a peace treaty, such a pullout will make things worse
Wed Apr 22, 2015, 09:07 PM
Apr 2015

The goal is a peaceful 2 state solution.

Not a 2 state solution where the conflict continues.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
28. The "goal" in your words,
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 02:28 PM
Apr 2015

should be a peaceful 2 state solution, but based on International Law. And the Israeli governments since 1967 have not been willing to abide by International Law.

International Law is quite clear on what can be done with territory seized in a conflict, and the Israeli actions since 1967 are continuing violations of the law.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
30. Israel has already offered 2 peaceful solutions based on International Law....
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 02:35 PM
Apr 2015

The Palestinians rejected both offers & chose to go to war rather than make a decent counter-proposal. I hope you don't support both rejections by the Palestinians. They could've had their own state 15 years ago.

Now for fun...

Do you believe a RoR for millions of refugee descendants is International Law? If so, where is this law?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
31. If the Israelis had actually ever offered to comply with International Law,
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 02:50 PM
Apr 2015

your response would be reasonable. But the Israelis offered a land swap deal, with no right of return for the Palestinians that were driven out by the Jewish and later Israeli terror tactics.

Your attempt to link the Israeli RoR Law, a law written with the specific intent of giving Israeli citizenship to all Jews anywhere in the world, with a non-existent counterpart in International Law might be a successful debating tactic in some venues, but please do not insult my intelligence with it.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
32. They did, based on UNSCR 242. As for land swaps, both Abbas & the Saudi Plan....
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 03:02 PM
Apr 2015

....have called for land swaps based on the '67 lines. I don't know where u learn this false information about forbidden land swaps.

with no right of return for the Palestinians that were driven out by the Jewish and later Israeli terror tactics.


There is no RoR for millions of Palestinian refugee descendants. No such law or recognition exists. It's complete fantasy.

Can u explain to me why so many people pretend there is?

Your attempt to link the Israeli RoR Law, a law written with the specific intent of giving Israeli citizenship to all Jews anywhere in the world, with a non-existent counterpart in International Law might be a successful debating tactic in some venues, but please do not insult my intelligence with it.


I didn't mention Israel's Law of Return for Jews. You did.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
33. Actually, YOU first mentioned RoR in your previous post.
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 03:14 PM
Apr 2015

The UN has consistently called for a return to the pre 1967 borders.

As to UNSCR 242, it begins:

The Security Council,
Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,
Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

You might wish to carefully read the sentence that starts: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war".

How you can read this as UN permission or approval for land swaps is beyond me.



 

shira

(30,109 posts)
34. I asked u about Palestinian RoR. It's fantasy, correct?
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 04:23 PM
Apr 2015

I didn't mention Israel's Law of Return, which is different.

Your interpretation of 242 is wrong. It's not just Israel which sees it that way; it's also the PA (Mahmoud Abbas) as well as the widely acclaimed Arab Plan. You'll note there are no leading authorities (US, UK, France, Russia, China) calling for complete withdrawal to exact '67 lines, and no UN resolutions since '67 clarifying that 242 calls for any such thing.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
35. My interpretation of UNSCR 242 is the clear language
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 04:53 PM
Apr 2015

of the resolution.

That some of the countries you cite, the US and the UK in particular, agree with the Israeli interpretation is no surprise. The French version of the Resolution actually states "the territories/les territoires" when referring to the seized land.

International Law is quite clear that territory captured in a conflict cannot be kept by the one seizing the territory. Israel only follows the law when it suits its purposes. Hardly an adherence to law.

Your focus/obsession on a Palestinian RoR has no basis in my arguments. I simply posited that if Israel can claim a RoR for itself, why cannot the Palestinians use the same novel legal concept?

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
36. It's clearly not. Otherwise, everyone would be calling for that...
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 05:10 PM
Apr 2015

It's not that all Western nations disagree with you, it's also the Arab League with their proposal. They acknowledge 242 doesn't call for complete withdrawal to '67 lines. The framers of 242 made it clear in the language that was not the intent.

==========

I asked u about Palestinian RoR because it gives me an idea whether I can have a reality-based discussion with the person to whom I'm talking.

You appear to be big into International Law, but if you're going to argue RoR with millions of Palestinian descendants is International Law - then it's clear you have no grasp of it.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
37. Or you have no grasp of what I said.
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 05:21 PM
Apr 2015

Which is that if the Israelis can craft a law specific to Israel, and specific to Jewish people all over the world, can the Palestinians not use the same concept and welcome all Palestinians into Palestine? What I did NOT say is that RoR is a concept under International Law.

This RoR concept could be used by the Palestinians to vastly increase the number of Palestinians into Palestine. That way, when the so called peace process finally dies, there can be a one state solution, with all of what is now Israel and Palestine merged to form one state. That way both peoples will be able to live wherever they wish.

It would still leave the problem of how to compensate Palestinians for their stolen lands. Perhaps Sheldon Adelson could help with this problem. He has far too much money for one person anyway. Let his money be used for good.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
38. Israel, like every other country on the planet, gets to determine....
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 05:24 PM
Apr 2015

...their own immigration laws. When there's a Palestine, the Palestinians will be able to do the same. They cannot do so now because they're not sovereign.

The RoR based on UNGA resolution 194 does not call for millions of descendants to go into Israel. It doesn't even call for all original refugees to be permitted into Israel. So once again, do you agree that the anti-Israel interpretation of 194 is complete fantasy?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
39. Israel allows all Jews, no matter the country of origin,
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 05:31 PM
Apr 2015

to emigrate to Israel with full citizenship.

Palestine is not sovereign because there can be no viable Palestine. A patchwork of land fragments separated by walls and "Israeli only" roads would never be a viable nation. Much like saying that the open air prison called Gaza could be part of a nation.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
40. So what does that have to do with the alleged RoR?
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 05:35 PM
Apr 2015
Palestine is not sovereign because there can be no viable Palestine. A patchwork of land fragments separated by walls and "Israeli only" roads would never be a viable nation. Much like saying that the open air prison called Gaza could be part of a nation.


So that means you prefer a 1-state future Hamastan and the elimination of the Jewish state...since that's what the majority (Palestinians) would vote for.

Correct?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
41. Would you describe the US as
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 06:59 PM
Apr 2015

a whites only "Christianistan", since that describes the biggest group of US citizens?

If two viable states, the operative word being viable, cannot be established, then the only solution is one state composed of ALL of the people living in that part of the Palestinian Mandate Territory known as Israel/Palestine right now. If a majority of citizens in a democracy vote for something, does that not mean the majority decides? If you disagree with the decision, work for an alternative. But surely Israel, which is described as the only democracy in the Middle East, cannot argue with the democratic process in action?

Correct?

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
46. USA = White Christianistan? No. And there's part of your problem...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 09:07 AM
Apr 2015

You see Jews as you do Christians or Muslims. The problem is that unlike other religions, Jews are a people - from atheists to orthodox. Ask yourself why atheist Jews still consider themselves part of the Jewish people. It's not that they believe they're part of the religion itself; it's that they believe they're part of a people/nation.

If two viable states, the operative word being viable, cannot be established,


It can still be established.

then the only solution is one state composed of ALL of the people living in that part of the Palestinian Mandate Territory known as Israel/Palestine right now. If a majority of citizens in a democracy vote for something, does that not mean the majority decides? If you disagree with the decision, work for an alternative. But surely Israel, which is described as the only democracy in the Middle East, cannot argue with the democratic process in action?

Correct?


What you're saying is that if a majority of people use democracy in an effort to destroy democracy (turning a liberal, western Israel into Syria) then who are we to argue with the will of the people. That's one horrible position to defend. I don't know how you can do that.

I'm for each people's self-determination. Your solution will give Palestinians self-determination at the expense of Jewish self-determination. That's like expecting Greeks and Italians to allow Turks and Tunisians to eliminate their self-determination. But worse, you believe the moral thing would be for a free nation that protects gays, women, christians, jews, and children to allow itself to become something on the order of Syria. No free nation on the planet would be that insane, and shouldn't have to be pressured to do that.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
47. In your "free nation" sentence, you left out one group.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 04:04 PM
Apr 2015

Palestinians. An oversight, perhaps?

It sounds like you are in favor of democracy as long as every citizen recognizes that certain people cannot be members of the democracy. Or certain topics are off limits in a supposedly free society. An interesting twist on the concept of democracy.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
55. Free, as in open society, liberal, western.
Sun Apr 26, 2015, 03:35 PM
Apr 2015
It sounds like you are in favor of democracy as long as every citizen recognizes that certain people cannot be members of the democracy.


Nah, I'm in favor of the Jewish state as it is, where Palestinians have equal rights.

OTOH, Mahmoud Abbas has made it clear he doesn't want even one Jew to live in a future Palestine.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
56. Two minor points
Mon Apr 27, 2015, 03:09 PM
Apr 2015

1) Non-Jews do NOT have equal rights as Jews in Israel, and
2) Abbas speaks for himself alone.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
57. 1. Israel's non-Jews are guaranteed equal rights by law
Mon Apr 27, 2015, 03:19 PM
Apr 2015

2. Abbas is a dictator. When he speaks for himself, he speaks for Palestine. It's his show & no one else's.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
27. "abandoning all territory seized from Palestine and Syria"
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 12:31 AM
Apr 2015

What territory was seized from Palestine as opposed to Syria?

What about the territory seized from Jordan and Egypt?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
29. Is your question serious?
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 02:35 PM
Apr 2015

What territory has been seized from Palestine?

Other than East Jerusalem and every piece of land seized for illegal Israeli settlements? Remember that there are NO legal settlements. Each settlement, each "Israeli only" road, are all illegal theft of land.

At least you admitted that Israel is still holding the Golan Heights. Thank you for that.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
43. define seized.
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 07:06 PM
Apr 2015

Technically, the entire original territory described as the Palestine Mandate was seized by European colonialists from the inhabitants. That seized territory was then divided by the Sykes-Picot Agreement and further modified by the Balfour Declaration. Two more examples of European colonialists dividing and deciding what was not theirs to divide or decide about.

The blowback from colonialism is still echoing today.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
44. However you wish to define it
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 07:15 PM
Apr 2015

I'm pretty sure the West Bank was seized from Jordan and Gaza was seized from Egypt.

With regard to the Mandate period, are you counting the Ottoman Empire as "the inhabitants" or as "European colonialists"?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
45. I would define inhabitants as the people originally inhabiting the area prior
Thu Apr 23, 2015, 08:49 PM
Apr 2015

to European colonialists deciding to divide up the assets. Given that the area has seen numerous invasions, migrations, and other events in the past 6000 years, determining who the "original inhabitants" are would probably be impossible. The same holds true for the US and many other countries.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
48. April 21st: Joint Israeli-Palestinian Memorial Day event
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 11:35 AM
Apr 2015

snip* This event has become “the primary alternative for those who do not identify with the official Remembrance Day ceremonies and who believe, as we do, that there is a better alternative, that war is not inevitable, and that we must put an end to the conflict and bloodshed on both sides.”

The event will also be live-streamed with English subtitles for those who cannot attend in person. Please see the Facebook event here for more information or the Combatants for Peace website here.

RELATED:

972 Magazine: Settler group tries to shut-down binational Memorial Day event

http://rhr.org.il/eng/2015/04/april-21st-joint-israeli-palestinian-memorial-day-event/

Israeli

(4,151 posts)
49. Further Jefferson.....
Sun Apr 26, 2015, 02:51 AM
Apr 2015

...from Adam Keller of Gush Shalom .....

Another kind of memorial

At just the time that the Prime Minister delivered his speech of blood in Jerusalem, a completely different type of memorial event took place in Tel Aviv. It was the tenth time that an alternative Memorial Day ceremony was organized by the Israeli-Palestinian group of "Combatants for Peace", bringing bereaved Israelis and Palestinians who all lost their loved ones in the ongoing conflict together, let them tell their stories of the personal loss they experienced and comfort each other.

"The common Israeli-Palestinian memorial ceremony came out of the initiative of a bereaved father, Buma Inbar," explains Avner Wishnitzer who lost his own son Yotam at Lebanon in 1995. "His intention was to make it possible for the bereaved families to mark Memorial Day while emphasizing a message of reconciliation and an action to prevent further bereavement. We are not strangers to pain. Many of us have served in combat units, have lost relatives and friends. But we must always remember that war is not a foredoomed fate but a personal choice. Precisely on this harsh day we call upon both sides to acknowledge the pain and the hope of those living on the other side of the fence, to try to prevent the next war. "

The first ceremony ten years ago was attended by some two hundred people. Since then the number of participants kept increasing by the year, this time already reaching many thousands. A large hall was taken and filled to capacity, and many were left out and had to squeeze into adjacent halls where the ceremony was shown on large screens. Big screens attracted considerable numbers of viewers in the Palestinian territories, at several European locations and in California. Many others – in Israel, the Palestinian territories and wordwide, were watching at home via the Internet. Until the last minute there was a tension on whether the Palestinian bereaved families would be able to attend – a settler group tried to get their entry permits to Israel cancelled. But eventually, the Palestinians did arrive and were received with applause.


Source: http://adam-keller2.blogspot.co.il/2015/04/another-kind-of-memorial.html

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
51. It is so tragic there is only a minority support, but it is there and should be acknowledged and
Sun Apr 26, 2015, 09:42 AM
Apr 2015

celebrated...kudos to them all.

The fear mongers in the Israeli government have done a great deal of damage...very sad.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
53. How anyone expects a bantustan to be the future state for the Palestinians and that peace
Sun Apr 26, 2015, 01:36 PM
Apr 2015

will follow is either dumb as a rock and or callous at the inhumanity of it.

That looks to be coming down the pike, that is my fear. Bibi and Bennett may
very well win, but no peace will follow.

Israeli

(4,151 posts)
54. Bibi and Bennett have already won ....
Sun Apr 26, 2015, 02:13 PM
Apr 2015

Its over .

There will be no Two State Solution .

Its over ....its done ...its dead .

The settlers have won .
Yigal Amir and Jonathan Pollard have both won ......expect to see them both set free soon .

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