Israel/Palestine

Lithos

(26,403 posts) Wed Jul 8, 2015, 08:47 PM Jul 2015

An unpopular man

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/122257/unpopular-man-norman-finkelstein-comes-out-against-bds-movement

Norman Finkelstein is an unpopular man. Norman Finkelstein has always been an unpopular man, but for decades he had a cult following among leftists and supporters of the Palestinian cause. Since coming out in 2012 against the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement, however, he has alienated his core followers. A few years ago, Finkelstein tells me, he made $40,000 in speaking fees from 80 talks to Palestinian Solidarity groups around North America. “This past year when I went to my accountant, he said, ‘I think there’s a mistake, because there’s only $2,000.” He laughs. “I told him there was no error. He said, ‘What happened?’ I thought to myself: Am I going to explain to him BDS?”

Also thought this paragraph notable:

Indeed, Noam Chomsky has also come out against BDS in support of Israel’s existence. He calls the attacks on Finkelstein “completely uncalled for, indeed outrageous.” He says that Finkelstein “had cogent and rational arguments” and “has done more for the Palestine cause than all those who launched these disgraceful attacks combined.” Hussein Ibish, an Arab-American scholar who supports a two-state solution, says that “Finkelstein and Chomsky have enough experience and have their ear to the ground to see that the one-state effort is quixotic. BDS’s hysterical reaction to Finkelstein was inevitable, because it’s much closer to a religion than it is to a political idea.”

15 replies

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Highlight:

An unpopular man (Original Post) Lithos Jul 2015 OP

VIDEO: Finkelstein interview where he calls BDS dishonest, cult shira Jul 2015 #1

I am always impressed to see people coming around to Finkelstein and Chomsky. Jefferson23 Jul 2015 #2

A writer for 972mag called him a Zionist bully oberliner Jul 2015 #3

The more fanatic the cult, the more vehement the hatred toward apostates. Fozzledick Jul 2015 #4

But Norman is no apostate oberliner Jul 2015 #5

My impression from the OP is that he's renounced the BDS party line Fozzledick Jul 2015 #6

Disagree Lithos Jul 2015 #9

He supports "boycotts, divestment, and sanctions" but not "the BDS movement" oberliner Jul 2015 #10

Correct Lithos Jul 2015 #12

Not sure that he actually believes Israel is a legitimate country within it's borders oberliner Jul 2015 #13

More to the point shaayecanaan Jul 2015 #15

Which writer oberliner ?...... Israeli Jul 2015 #7

Did you not read the article in the OP? oberliner Jul 2015 #11

Nope .... Israeli Jul 2015 #14

Here's an interview with Finkelstein that clarifies his stance on the settlements and BDS: Little Tich Jul 2015 #8

shira

(30,109 posts)

1. VIDEO: Finkelstein interview where he calls BDS dishonest, cult

Reply to Lithos (Original post)

Wed Jul 8, 2015, 08:54 PM

Jul 2015

I’ve earned my right to speak my mind, and I’m not going to tolerate what I think is silliness, childishness, and a lot of leftist posturing.

I mean we have to be honest, and I loathe the disingenuous. They don’t want Israel. They think they are being very clever; they call it their three-tier. We want the end of the occupation, the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever because they know the result of implementing all three is what, what is the result?

You know and I know what the result is. There’s no Israel!

. . .

It’s not an accidental and unwitting omission that BDS does not mention Israel. You know that and I know that. It’s not like they’re “oh we forgot to mention it.” They won’t mention it because they know it will split the movement. ‘Cause there’s a large segment of the movement that wants to eliminate Israel.

. . .

Are you going to reach a broad public which is going to hear the Israeli side ‘they want to destroy us?’ No you’re not. And frankly you know what you shouldn’t. You shouldn’t reach a broad public because you’re dishonest. And I wouldn’t trust those people if I had to live in this state. I wouldn’t. It’s dishonesty.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)

2. I am always impressed to see people coming around to Finkelstein and Chomsky.

Reply to Lithos (Original post)

Wed Jul 8, 2015, 08:56 PM

Jul 2015

When they need them that is.

oberliner

(58,724 posts)

3. A writer for 972mag called him a Zionist bully

Reply to Lithos (Original post)

Wed Jul 8, 2015, 09:58 PM

Jul 2015

That comment, referenced in your OP, blows my mind.

Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)

4. The more fanatic the cult, the more vehement the hatred toward apostates.

Reply to oberliner (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 8, 2015, 10:19 PM

Jul 2015

And the more dogmatic the rhetoric, the more universal its application regardless of actual circumstances.

oberliner

(58,724 posts)

5. But Norman is no apostate

Reply to Fozzledick (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 8, 2015, 10:43 PM

Jul 2015

His criticism of Israel is as vehement and full-throated as it ever was.

He also does support BDS - but thinks they should tweak their approach a bit (in that they should say they do recognize Israel has a right to exist) in order to be successful.

Fozzledick

(3,860 posts)

6. My impression from the OP is that he's renounced the BDS party line

Reply to oberliner (Reply #5)

Wed Jul 8, 2015, 10:52 PM

Jul 2015

and to True Believers any deviation from total orthodoxy is intolerable heresy.

Lithos

(26,403 posts)

9. Disagree

Reply to oberliner (Reply #5)

Thu Jul 9, 2015, 09:20 AM

Jul 2015

My readings is that he feels BDS is not unified enough to support. BDS has too many agendas, some of which he supports and some of which he does not.

oberliner

(58,724 posts)

10. He supports "boycotts, divestment, and sanctions" but not "the BDS movement"

Reply to Lithos (Reply #9)

Thu Jul 9, 2015, 10:07 AM

Jul 2015

In a recent reddit AMA, he said this on the subject:

I have always supported boycotts, divestment and sanctions. The real issue is: towards what end or goal? i don't believe it is possible to reach a broad public without recognizing Israel's legal existence within its internationally recognized borders. BDS leaders think otherwise.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3ayqh4/i_am_norman_finkelstein_expert_on_the/

Lithos

(26,403 posts)

12. Correct

Reply to oberliner (Reply #10)

Thu Jul 9, 2015, 12:17 PM

Jul 2015

That's why I tried to differentiate between a BDS agenda vs the BDS "group" (Maybe I didn't?). Finkelstein supports BDS, but he does not support the BDS group which is using BDS to drive other agenda items, such as a single state solution which he does not support as he believes Israel is a legitimate country within it's borders.

This is one of the distinctions when comparing Israel with South Africa and one of the reasons I think certain groups are hiding behind when they are invoking BDS. Israel is viewed as legitimate within its borders, a legitimacy which Afrikaan South Africa lacked. But by making the comparison they are linking BDS to a single state solution and thus implying Israel lacks legitimacy as a state.

It's a slippery slope made up of very emotional arguments, but which suffers from logical fallacy. Same type of process used to deny Palestinians claims to a co-equal state centered on the West Bank.

L-

oberliner

(58,724 posts)

13. Not sure that he actually believes Israel is a legitimate country within it's borders

Reply to Lithos (Reply #12)

Thu Jul 9, 2015, 12:25 PM

Jul 2015

What he has expressed is that, from a practical standpoint, the BDS movement cannot be successful if it pushes the angle that Israel is not a legitimate country (which he says that it does) since that will prevent the movement from being more universally embraced.

With regard to states in general he said this:

I am an old-fashioned communist (with a lower-case "c&quot . I don't think borders and States make sense. The world is a tiny place, the fundamental challenges confronting humankind - climate change, economic dysfunction-- can only be solved on a global scale. My heartstrings still resonate to, "The Internationale shall be the Human Race."

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)

15. More to the point

Reply to Lithos (Reply #12)

Thu Jul 9, 2015, 06:52 PM

Jul 2015

That's why I tried to differentiate between a BDS agenda vs the BDS "group" (Maybe I didn't?)

Perhaps it's time some of the more genuine Palestinian advocates started doing more themselves to differentiate themselves from groups like bds.

I have no doubt that most of the BDS people are well intentioned. A few are not, however, and like most leftist grouplets they seem to lack the backbone to get rid of those people who are doing them a disservice.

I personally support boycotts, divestments and sanctions, but not "Boycotts Divestments and Sanctions". Part of this is tactical and part of this is ideological. Tactically, Their choice of targets is often incongruous. They picketed the max Brenner coffee shops here in Australia, apparently on the basis that max Brenner sends a chocolate box every year to the boys in his old unit. Given that the IDF would probably keep operating on the same footing whether max Brenner sent his chocolates or not, you have to wonder whether their efforts might have been better spent.

Israeli

(4,151 posts)

7. Which writer oberliner ?......

Reply to oberliner (Reply #3)

Thu Jul 9, 2015, 02:04 AM

Jul 2015

I would love to read the content .....would asking for a link be to much to ask ??????

oberliner

(58,724 posts)

11. Did you not read the article in the OP?

Reply to Israeli (Reply #7)

Thu Jul 9, 2015, 10:09 AM

Jul 2015

The link is provided in that article.

Israeli

(4,151 posts)

14. Nope ....

Reply to oberliner (Reply #11)

Thu Jul 9, 2015, 02:16 PM

Jul 2015

was short on time this morning .....now I have .

My apologies .... I thought you were doing your usual bashing of 972 and the Israeli Left in general .

So here it is :
http://972mag.com/in-flinching-move-finkelstein-slams-boycott-movement/35497/

Not a regular "writer for 972mag" ....a guest writer ....not an Israeli "writer for 972mag"...one American giving his opinion of another .....

Sean O’Neill worked for Christian Peacemaker Teams from 2006-2009 in the South Hebron Hills supporting Palestinian-led nonviolent resistance to Israeli occupation and continued settlement expansion. He is currently an MA candidate at New York University in Near Eastern Studies and Journalism.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)

8. Here's an interview with Finkelstein that clarifies his stance on the settlements and BDS:

Reply to Lithos (Original post)

Thu Jul 9, 2015, 06:03 AM

Jul 2015

Norman Finkelstein: Israel, Settlements and the ICC (Part 2/2)

Source: Fair Observer, Aug 22, 2104

(Snip)
Langendorf: We have seen protests in many European capitals, and even in the US, against what the Gaza conflict, with a non-violent struggle against the occupation. One component of that is the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement. What has the BDS movement achieved so far and what can it achieve?

Finkelstein: The BDS movement’s achievements have been quite significant. It is a very well organized, committed group of people, and it has managed to increase the salience on the political international stage of the Israel-Palestine conflict — there is no question about that. However, the problem with the BDS movement is two-fold.

The first is not so much a problem, but a reality. It is not possible for any external force to liberate the Palestinians. The Palestinians have to liberate themselves. I am an atheist but I strongly believe that God helps those who help themselves, and the Palestinians have to lead the struggle. The BDS movement has operated in a political vacuum for the past ten years. The Occupied Territories, in particular the West Bank, were

successfully pacified by Israel, with the attitude among most Palestinians in the West Bank being “every man for himself.” In the absence of any political will in the Occupied Territories, the limits of a boycott movement are very severe.

If you look at the precursor of the BDS movement, it was the anti-apartheid sanctions campaign in South Africa. This campaign ebbed and flowed in rhythm with the internal struggle. The highlights of the anti-apartheid campaign came in 1960 with the Sharpeville massacre, in 1976 with the Soweto massacre, and in 1984 when the South African apartheid regime declared a state of emergency, after mass civil unrest by what was called the United Democratic Front.

The entire anti-apartheid sanctions campaign was a function of the internal struggle. The BDS movement’s expectations became slightly inflated when its leaders claimed, to quote them: “We have reached a South Africa moment.” You cannot reach a South Africa moment unless there is an internal struggle in Palestine, of which campaigns abroad are an effect. There is a very big difference between cause and effect. The anti-apartheid sanctions movement was an effect; the cause was the internal struggle. The BDS movement has erroneously reversed cause and effect and imagines that it can liberate Palestine.

The second limitation of BDS is the international consensus over how to resolve the conflict. This is two states on the basis of the pre-1967 borders and a just resolution of the Palestinian refugee question. BDS refuses to take a position on Israel. If you refuse to take a position on Israel, there will be severe limits. For example, if you attend, as I did recently, a demonstration in New York and you’re chanting, “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,” that’s just not going to fly. It is possible that those people don’t know what the river and sea are. For those who know the river is the Jordan River, you’re saying that Israel is not part of the future. “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” — whatever you think about that yourself in terms of a goal or the morality of it, as a political matter, well, it’s dead on arrival and it’s not going anywhere.
(end snip)

Read more:

http://www.fairobserver.com/region/middle_east_north_africa/norman-finkelstein-israel-settlements-and-the-icc-56812/

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