Is there any relationship between the two at all?

Edit to Add: Take, for example, with respect to Jerusalem.

Israel is just the name that was chosen for the Jewish state.

It is the only such state in the world (where Jewish people make up the majority).

You posted an article here not long ago with this subject heading:

'We don't need a constitution—we have the Bible'

I stand by my comment.


And yes, I did post about some RW nutjob in the Israeli government wanting to use the bible instead of drafting a constitution.



And it is not a stretch that nutjobs like Slomiansky want desperately to silence debate on Israeli apartheid, human rights abuses and illegal colonization of Palestinians lands in the same way as others want desperately to ignore of hijack OPs where Israeli is shown for the rogue state that it is.

Now, are you ready to discuss the OP, or would you rather disappear?

I thought it would be more productive to engage in a dialogue with a fellow DUers than reiterate my feelings about Mondoweiss.

the article.



Was anything factually incorrect, or do you just don't like trying to defend shutting down free speech on campus?

land aquisition in the West Bank, the massive bombing and shelling of Gaza to name a few are Jewish in character? I ask because anyone else saying something alluding to that would be called antisemitic and for good reason IMO

If the Bedouin were Jewish, they would not be forced from their homes, would they?

The Working Definition of Antisemitism isn't against criticism of Israel. It even says so....

The problem is that Mondoweiss-style criticism of Israel goes way beyond criticism similar to that leveled against any other country. As the Working Definition states:



Mondoweiss is guilty of #1-6 above. Evidence of which is easily attainable and still on record at their website.



Mondoweiss is guilty of #7-11 too; proof of which is still on the Mondoweiss website. They cannot "criticize" Israel without resorting to ALL these examples that indicate Jew hatred.

It's no wonder Mondoweiss fears a working definition of Antisemitism. They, just like the degenerate freaks over at Rense, Veterans Today, and StormFront wouldn't have as much fun trashing the Jewish State if they had to "settle" (poor things) for only legitimate criticism of Israel - like that of the Obama Administration, J-Street, or PeaceNow - which aren't hostile enough for BDS holes who want the Jewish state gone.

is subject to well deserved criticism, and all the revised and market tested buzzwords to try and conflate criticism of Israel with criticism of Jews is backfiring. People are fucking tired of it.

The OP/article is about fighting just that: fighting conflating criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism...or hating Jews.


When people criticize Israel for illegal colonization it is not about hating Jews.

When people criticize Israel for the destruction/theft of Palestinians homes, groves, orchards, livestock, property it is not about hating Jews.

When people criticize Israel for the murder of Palestinian children it is not about hating Jews.

When people criticize Israel for treating the Bedouin like herd animals it is not about hating Jews.


I could go on, but I believe that you know where I am going: right back to the OP.

Try reading it this time.

Arab groups are also semites. Being Jewish does not make one a semite nor does being Muslim

Then again, it's not odd. It's just what the word means. That happens sometimes. It's actually the essence of language.

Much like an anti-proton isn't just particle that has it in for protons. And an antipasto isn't something that really discriminates against "pasto." And an antipathy isn't an attitude against feelings.

It's a nice attempt to get us to fall for an variant of the etymological fallacy, though. Although I'm not sure trying to convince people they should fall for a fallacy is really a kind or even honest thing to do. In this case, the really really means what it originally meant. However, it does not mean what its etymology would suggest. It's meaning is very mucy not compositional.

Standard definition is something like "discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews"--which falls short of an appeal to authority because language is determined by usage, and that's the actual usage. Far from being an appeal to authority, it's actually a simple observation of the larger community's usage. However much cant and jargon appeal, it's just ain't that important to others.

If you want a word for antipahty for other Semite peoples, the best you have is anti-Arabism. Arabs are Semites; not just "many Arab groups", unless you somehow mean "many" to imply an improper subset. That would be an egregious bit of ill-will under any standard English principles of implicature and discourse pragmatics.

----------

The other problem is that in the absence of a clear set of categories and thinking, you merge ethnicity with religion. There are Jewish converts of non-Semitic extraction, just as there are Jews who are Muslim or Xian. So to conflate Jewish with Judaism is as dishonest as it is to conflate being Israeli with being Jewish. There are many Muslims who would disagree with you.

In fact, there are even Druze who would even disagree that you need to be Muslim to be Semitic. (Islam has nothing to do with being a Semite. Ask the Ethiopian Xians. By some definitions, they're Semitic. Then again, so are Somalis, who are usually Muslim.)

I've been nice to people and they continue to spout manipulative nonsense or blither. At some point I have to break with with Hanlon's Razor because there's no choice--that's simply where the evidence points.

Changing a phrases meaning to suit ones needs is beyond the pale.

Full Definition of ANTI-SEMITISM

: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group

Read more: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-semitism


Interestingly, that's how I define anti-Semitism too.

It's only if it's anti-Semitic that it can be anti-Semitic. What I'm trying to say is that criticism of Israel isn't an indicator for anti-Semitism - it's not even related.

Anit-Semitism is a form of racism - no more, no less.

Consider all the lies, half-truths, exaggerations, hyperbole, hostility, demonization, double-standards & delegitimization of Israel, unlike any other nation on the planet. That's not responsible legitimate criticism. If someone attacked any other country with so much hostility, calling it a Nazi state....if they lied and slandered that country, utilized double-standards that no other nation is held accountable for, and then called for the end of that state - you know damned well you wouldn't call that mere criticism.

The only reason Israel is compared to a Nazi state by BDS & its supporters is because it's a JEWISH state. No other nation on the planet except for the Jewish nation is called a Nazi state so routinely, so consistently. Do you not realize how utterly disgusting it is to compare the victims of the Holocaust and their descendants to their destroyers? The Jewish state has been defending itself from violent extremists since day 1. From psychopaths like Hamas who make it clear they want to kill all Jews. And yet Israel is compared to the Nazis for defending against that. It's as if Hamasniks are poor innocent victims (freedom fighters) while Israel is dedicated to annihilating all Palestinians out of pure hatred, for no rational purpose whatsoever.

Only the intentionally blind would call that kind of "criticism" legitimate & not clear-cut Jew hatred.

I take it you now understand the difference between criticism vs. demonization, lies & slander, double-standards, and delegitimization.

One is legit. The other is hate.

Think of it this way if you still don't get it: In a conversation we had about RoR, I wrote how bad it would be for Jews to live under Hamas and PLO rule, how they'd be massacred. You called that anti-Arab racism when it's nothing of the sort. But you refuse to see anti-Jewish hatred in the most hostile, slanderous "criticism" of Israel or its leaders.

I find that fascinating.

And that hostility is the heart, soul, and core of the Arab/Muslim/Leftist hostility to Israel. Check out this recent policy article by Omar Barghouti. https://al-shabaka.org/briefs/bds-a-global-movement-for-freedom-justice/

Barghouti is honest enough to state, "BDS does indeed challenge Israel's 'essential nature'." The essential nature of Israel is that it is a Jewish state. That's why BDS attracts so many antisemites. It's very essence is antisemitic.

The reason for the state department definition is that antisemites have gotten clever. They hide their hatred by criticizing Israeli actions, but they do so unfairly. It's like someone picking through the news to find things that reflect badly on blacks and only on blacks. That's motivated by hatred, not principle.

However it would be if that hostility was rooted in anti-Semitism.

Israel is not the Jews, you know.

Enough posters want to conflate Israel and Jews as one: excluding out the other 24% of Israeli citizens as being non-entities.

The USA is 100% Xtian if you ignore the ones who aren't.

People who rail against the Palestinians and are fiercely critical of their leadership and their very right to exist as a state are not generally motivated by anti-Muslim or anti-Arab prejudices.

Would you agree?

I do believe that you're conflating Palestine and the Palestinians, however. If someone criticizes the Jews / the Palestinians and denies them the right to live in their ancestral homeland, I see an indicator for possible racism. This form of racism could be either that Jews should go back to where they came from, or that Palestinians don't have any ROR.

I also believe that there's nothing racist in questioning why states should exist, existing ones as well as possible ones.

"pacifying the locals" isn't about any particular characteristic of the conquered, it's about allowing the conquerors to exert their power, control and dominance.

The problem is that the hostility to Israel is because it is Jewish. If Israel were an Arab state doing the same things, then there wouldn't be this much hostility to it.

Israel is not Jewish. It has a Jewish majority and 24% other; which I guess doesn't register with you.

The problem seems to be that this 24% doesn't register with others as well who wish to paint some kind of fantasy picture on 100% Jewishness.

The problem with Israel, the apartheid state, is that it calls itself a democracy yet it obviously has different sets of rules both inside and outside its borders. ...yes Israel has borders.

The problem with Israel is that it expects the world to ignore its overt, but non-declared, annexation of another people's land, the constant war on the same exploited people, the Palestinians, in the form of land theft, destruction of private property, the blocking of access to said property (resulting in a loss of livelihood), forced movements of populations within Israel, the Bedouin, so Israel can build more Jewish-only villages and then playing the victim in all of it as if the world has it out for poor misunderstood Right Wing Israel.

If Israel were an Arab state, and what Arab state is a Democracy(?), I would expect it to be doing the things it is doing now, but the definition of democracy is that it has a higher calling for all its citizens; namely the protection of all human rights of all citizens and the rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all of its citizens.


Those that conflate Israel = Jew either don't have a firm grasp of what democracy really is or are trying to bluff their way through an argument which end result looks far more theocratic and far less democratic.

Therein you find the heart of criticism of Israel; while it seeks protection from the West at the same time it wants them to fuck off as it ethnically cleanses itself of a group of people it wants to disappear.

We see stereotyping and demonization.

There is a name for that but I don't want my post hidden.

Israel is not Jewish. It has a Jewish majority and 24% other; which I guess doesn't register with you.

Therein you find the heart of criticism of Israel; while it seeks protection from the West at the same time it wants them to fuck off as it ethnically cleanses itself of a group of people it wants to disappear.

You first illustrate that the equating of Israel with Jews is a misnomer as a quarter of Israelis aren't even Jewish.

Yet your last paragraph accuses Israel of ethnically cleansing the same group of people who you just cited as comprising that quarter. You don't really mean that Israel as a whole is ethnically cleansing the Palestinians, do you? Are you implying that Israeli Palestinians are actually trying to disappear their own ethnic group? Seems doubtful.

More likely when you refer to Israel here what you're really talking about is Jewish Israel. Zionist Israel. When you criticize Israel you aren't attacking "all Jews." But you are speaking exclusively to Israelis who are Jewish.

Of course the explanation for hatred of Israel being the result of Israeli ethnic cleansing itself implies an anti-Semitic root cause. Considering that there is no indication whatsoever of such ethic cleansing occurring in reality, listing it as the key reason people criticize Israeli Jews implies the existence of some other, unstated reason.

When right wingers tell you they hate Obama because he's not an American citizen, and is dedicated to starting a race war, do you ever suspect they might have ulterior motives?

Last edited Sun Jul 26, 2015, 11:59 AM - Edit history (1)

Israel is run by a group on nasty anti-Palestinian, anti-left, pro-GOP, colonizing, expansionist, anti-arab Likrudniks and their bigoted right wing flunkies: voted in by a majority of indolent Israelis. You can't argue that one away.

Here's a few mavens of Israeli bigotry in action.

Ayelet Shaked: Who refers to Palestinian Children as little snakes.

Eli Ben Dahan: Who states that a "Jew always has a much higher soul than a non-Jew" and "Palestinians] are beasts, they are not human."

PM Nothingyahu: There will never be a Palestinian state.

And I haven't even started on the system of Israeli bigotry against the bedouin; to whom Israel is attempting to disappear some of their villages and replace them with a Jewish-only settlement.

So to answer your fallacious question, "Are you implying that Israeli Palestinians are actually trying to disappear their own ethnic group", the answer is no. The Israeli right wingers are doing that; backed by the incurious and lazy Israeli voter.

To say the horrible policy of the treatment of African Americans, or any other ethnic group, in the USA, past and present, is condoned by them, simply by being members of the USA is a horribly weak argument to make. So I'll leave that bankrupt philosophu to you.



Seeing how you have a reading comprehension problem, let me re-post what you obviously failed to read / comprehend the first time...

"The problem with Israel, the apartheid state, is that it calls itself a democracy yet it obviously has different sets of rules both inside and outside its borders. ...yes Israel has borders.

The problem with Israel is that it expects the world to ignore its overt, but non-declared, annexation of another people's land, the constant war on the same exploited people, the Palestinians, in the form of land theft, destruction of private property, the blocking of access to said property (resulting in a loss of livelihood), forced movements of populations within Israel, the Bedouin, so Israel can build more Jewish-only villages and then playing the victim in all of it as if the world has it out for poor misunderstood Right Wing Israel. "




I would expect Likudists to regurgitate exactly the same thing. "No ethnic cleansing here", but that runs contrary to Israel trying to wipe Bedouin villages and the Palestinian village of Susya...not to mention all the other shit Israel does: destruction of private Palestinian property, confiscation of Palestinian land and building illegal Israeli colonies on said land.



I don't talk to right wingers as a rule or what they say about our POTUS, but I'm not sure if some posters on DU are pretenders: GOP in sheeps clothing. What I do know is that your last question is more than a little silly and a distraction both from the OP and Israeli purity laws in general.

expansionist, anti-arab Likrudniks and their bigoted right wing flunkies"

Basically all of whom are Jewish, correct?

Does Judaism not play a major role in much of what you are talking about (i.e. building illegal Israeli colonies on confiscated land, Israeli "purity" laws, etc)?

Does the 20+ percent of the Israeli population who are not Jewish support these policies to a similar degree as those who are?

I would assert that they do not.

Is there a different definition of anti-Semitism at State that I'm not finding?

Here's the page I found:

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/fs/2010/122352.htm

And I don't simply see 'criticism of Israel' there.

as being synonymous as a pejorative antagonistic to their religion. Nonsense, I says.

Have we not loudly condemned the policies of the Vatican and the leadership of Catholic Church that have protected pedopfile priests from proscecution while managing to separate that issue from their legitimate religious activities? Does the world not condemn the horrors of radical Muslim extremists as a separate action from the normal religious practices of the Islamic faith? By the same token, the world community has now condemned Israel's oppressive apartheid state policies for what they are, the non-religious political, economic and military aggression against a captive people under their control.