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geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 01:42 PM Oct 2015

Slaves of History

But the point is this: do we expect Palestinian-Muslim supremacism to fade more under an independent Palestinian state that has some economic viability or under permanent occupation? The answer to this question is obvious. People who have some element of freedom, national dignity and prosperity have things to lose and things they want to keep. Historic claims and vengeances don't find a soil as receptive in those situations. Again, this is amazingly obvious and is validated by almost all historical examples. And here it is worth noting the cynical effort on the part of Arab states not to resettle any Palestinian refugees precisely to keep them as a living remembrance of the Palestinian Nakba. But again, history will only get us so far.

So to Jeff, I would say yes. Of course this is true. But what are we going to do about it now? Should Israel really try to keep ruling these people forever if they have this toxic and irreconcilable worldview? That's nuts. And to the extent that Palestinian public opinion has ebbed and flowed between various forms of accommodationism and rejectionist supremacism, do we really think on-going settlement and making an independent Palestinian state more and more hard to imagine is going to mollify those views? I mean, of course not. This is obvious. Maximalist and eliminationist attitudes breed under oppressed people.


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/slaves-of-history
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Slaves of History (Original Post) geek tragedy Oct 2015 OP
surely you see his mistake Mosby Oct 2015 #1
Whoosh. geek tragedy Oct 2015 #2
his main point is stupid. Mosby Oct 2015 #4
Yeah, the oppression, apartheid, and permenant occupation geek tragedy Oct 2015 #5
His point is specious. Igel Oct 2015 #3
The Gulf states are cooperating with Israel behind the scenes. geek tragedy Oct 2015 #6
This is where he's wrong. aranthus Oct 2015 #7

Mosby

(16,332 posts)
1. surely you see his mistake
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 02:06 PM
Oct 2015

He is completely ignoring the history of Mizrahi Jews. The Jews never left. Period.

The charge of colonialism is baseless.



Mosby

(16,332 posts)
4. his main point is stupid.
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 03:25 PM
Oct 2015

He should quit pretending he's a social scientist.

Eleminationism and supremicism have nothing to do with oppression. Those beliefs are culturally and religiously based and are largely disconnected with current reality.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
5. Yeah, the oppression, apartheid, and permenant occupation
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 03:54 PM
Oct 2015

have zero influence on how Palestinians view Jews and the state of Israel.

Marshall is a liberal and not racist towards Palestinians. Which means the rightwing supporters of Israel will not like what he says.

People who view the Palestinians as rabid animals will not agree with this:

But at some point you have to accept your own victory. When peace seemed within sight in the 1990s a majority of Palestinians said a two state solution was one they could live with. Maybe not like, but live with. As peace or more accurately an independent Palestinian state has seemed more and more far-fetched, the polls have moved in the other direction. So yes, these views are there and they are the root of the conflict. But the Israelis are there. They're not going anywhere. Neither are the Palestinians on the West Bank or in East Jerusalem. So what do we think is the best way to shift views over time? Or to put it more accurately, to get people to increasingly distinguish their ultimate aspirations or historical dreams from the real world we live in today?

I would suggest that a permanent occupation, which settlements make more permanent, is the best way to deepen the toxic rage and rejectionism that we see today and which yes does have roots back a century.


What he is saying is what anyone to the left of John Bolton sees as obvious.

I'll leave you with one thought. As I noted above, one of the ironies of Zionism is that the most history-rich parts of the land in question for Jews are not in the coastal plain which now makes up most of the most heavily populated parts of Israel. The real historical resonance is in places on the West Bank. I would suggest that if you sit down with many committed two stater Zionists, if you press enough, you will find at least a wistfulness that these elemental places from the Jewish past are not part of Israel. But that's not how history worked out. Deciding to go for everything, succumbing to the drug of maximalism is what got Israel into the settlement disaster. Having a state, having prosperity, having dignity for many makes letting go of these lodestones of national identity and shared pasts more possible. We do the Palestinians and everyone else a disservice to imagine that the same patterns would not take root over time if the Palestinians also had a state.


But of course maximalism and radicalism on your side is great, because your religion is true and theirs is false, blah blah blah.

Igel

(35,332 posts)
3. His point is specious.
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 02:52 PM
Oct 2015

Consider this: How many independent Muslim states continue with the stance he attributes to the Palestinian Muslims?

A sense of triumphalism pervaded the Ottomans when they were ascendant; they had things to lose.

Egypt still is nasty to the Copts.

The Sa'udis have a dispensation from heaven to be oppressive.

The Jordanians are vicariously oppressive having few local Xians and no local Jews to oppress.

The Turks can't decide if it's Allah or their Turkic roots they worship more, and are terrified of an "amen" out of the wrong mouth in the Blue Mosque lest it be reclaimed by that monolithic bloc known as "Xians."

The Salafists in Syria and Iraq have a messianic complex shared by groups from Indonesia through Thailand and India and Pakistan/Afghanistan through to Sinai and Egypt south to Somalia and west into Cyrenaica, thence to al Maghrib and south into Fula territory. Oddly similar rules based on oddly similar fiqhs, but viewed as utterly independent and unrelated because otherwise we'd be forced to critique our own stunted viewpoints.

These are oppressed only in the sense that there are still people with superior standards of living who flout the idea that the Muslims are the best people and should naturally be in charge; their sensibilities are hurt because others do as they want and not as the ummah is commanded and would command.

Albeit a minority at times, yet not out of the mainstream at other times, oppression seems to not be the problem.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
6. The Gulf states are cooperating with Israel behind the scenes.
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 03:55 PM
Oct 2015

They have common enemies--Iran, Hezbollah.

So, things can change.

aranthus

(3,385 posts)
7. This is where he's wrong.
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 04:42 PM
Oct 2015

He agrees with Jeff Goldberg that the real driving force is Arab/Muslim supremacism/chauvinism/antisemitism. But he argues that creating a state will be more likely to reduce those feelings than continued occupation. Maybe, but consider:

1. There is no prior hostility that is such a virulent combination of national, political, historical, and religious motives. What if the Palestinians really do want to subjugate the Jews more than they want a state?

2. The local historical examples aren't favorable. Once the Iranian mullahs took over, they exported revolution and terror. Same with ISIS. Same with Hezbollah.

3. Once the Palestinians have a state they have a much stronger power base. People with increased power use it, and they tend to use it on those deeply held beliefs that drove them in the first place.

4. The Palestinian leadership is on record as stating that obtaining a state in the West Bank and Gaza would just be the "first stage" in the war against the Jewish state.

5. The target of the hostility is the Jews, and that means that the usual rules of conflict and conflict resolution don't apply. People and nations do all sorts of completely irrational things when they think that their enemy is the Jews.

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