For those who'd like a better understanding of the decades-long water and sanitation crisis in Gaza and the West Bank, I recommend the September 2021 Report of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights.

It's a pretty comprehensive report that looks at the shortcomings of both sides, though the lion's share of responsibility is attributed to Israel. Whether that's considered UN bias or evidence of Israel's use of water[w resources as a tool of political and socio-economic control is of course up to the reader. But it's well worth a read.

The recurring escalation of hostilities is also a contributing factor (see #52). The May 2021 escalation:
"caused widespread destruction of civilian infrastructure, including water and sanitation facilities, raising serious concerns as to whether these attacks by Israel complied with the principles of distinction and proportionality under international humanitarian law...290 WASH [water and infrastructure] facilities were destroyed during this escalation..."

Based on past history, at the end of this current war, we may be told that drug-addled HAMAS were hiding at every major water and infrastructure facility and so...

the source of drug money?

No? Then it does not address the concern I raised. The report you are referring to does not show how much Hamas is spending on its military projects vs civilian projects. What I am implying is that Hamas spends enormous sums on frivolous things that do not benefit Gazan civilians one bit at the expense of projects that would benefit them.

And, even though you wouldn't find these statistics in the UN report, that's no red herring.

It goes to the PA. It is closely monitored by Israel to ensure nothing goes to Hamas.

Infrastucture projects are administered by various aid agencies, not Hamas.

I won't deny that corruption may go on with money they collect through taxes on their own people. There is very little accountability from what I read, which is very little so I'm no authority.

What I am saying is that to equate $3 pills allegedly found by Israel on the bodies of "several" Hamas fighters with responsibility for the decades-old water and infrastructure crisis is.. a red herring.

It distracts attention from the real problem.

Captagon is becoming problem for the Middle East. I'm sure you would find it in the pockets of many Arabs and perhaps Israelis as well. Though their problem seems to be fentanyl.

Drugs are a scourge, no matter what side you are on.

You might be surprised to learn Gaza has an anti-narcotics force that monitors all shipments from Egypt and Israel. In February they seized 50,000 captagon pills that came in thru the Israeli crossing. They claim it is part of a deliberate attempt to weaken their society.

Two sides to every story.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newarab.com/news/hamas-seizes-50000-captagon-pills-blaming-israel-source%3famp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/now-worlds-no-1-opioid-consumer-per-capita-israel-faces-addiction-epidemic/amp/

I am saying the real problem is not drug use on either side, or the money allegedly spent on drugs or other frivoulous things as you put it.

The problem, to me, derives from the policies and practices as outlined in the UN report and many other reports that corroborate it.

This is the money I am talking about. What prevents them from spending it on infrastructure instead?

The same thing that prevents the U.S. from spending all its money on its people. The war machine.

A statistic that blows my mind is that spending on the militay in the U.S. is HALF of all discetionary spending and 12% of all spending.

The same reason Israel does too. Though they get nearly a quarter of their military budget from the U.S.

The answer: Defense of their people and land.

For Hamas, aside from their social division which provides needed social programs, they are a military organization employing terrorist tactics. In their view they are defending their people by any means necessary. You have to admit they are far outclassed by the Israeli military.

In case you are wondering, I do believe they must be eliminated. No peace or solutions with Hamas around.
Peace.

Can you seriously compare the abject poverty of the Palestinians in Gaza and the Israelis or Americans? Can you really ignore the ratios of military spending to infrastructure spending in Gaza vs that of Israel and the US? It is beyond obvious that Hamas is obsessed with jihad and cares nothing for the Palestinians. They hide their missiles in schools, for gawds sake!

How can you possibly call it all the same?

I would love to see statistics on the ratio of infrastucture vs military spending for all 3. I assume you have them, since you are making these claims, so please share.

The abject poverty of Palestinians vis a vis Israelis is usually a point made when discussing the socio-economic and political power imbalances between the two. Usually in the context of occupation, oppression, effects of the blockade etc. As in these conditions leading to impoverishment. So your argument is interesting. You could bolster it by sharing evidence.

Whose land and whose people? Well there is no such thing as Hamas land or Hamas people. The Palestinians have a claim to that land too, as do the Jews. They should not be driven out of their ancestral lands either. They need their own state.

If you don't agree on that, we should just agree to disagree and leave it be for now. It's a bad time for everybody.

Last edited Sat Oct 21, 2023, 09:26 AM - Edit history (1)

The latest data available is for 2022:

Military expenditure as a share of GDP for Israel: 4.5%
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS?locations=IL
Military expenditure as a share of GDP for USA: 3.5%
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS?locations=US

I must disappoint you with the Gaza stats, though: they are not available (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS?locations=PS ), likely because Hamas doesn't want to embarrass itself with advertising its obscene military spending relative to its non-military spending. But it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that for the price of the 5000 missiles Hamas claims it fired at Israel last Saturday alone, Hamas could have purchased quite a few solar powered water desalination plants to last a decade or three, and for the cost of the estimated 200 miles of reinforced concrete tunnels under Gaza it is quite possible to fund a public transportation system for all of Gaza that will, assuming the revenues will not be diverted to provide luxury housing for Hamas leaders in Qatar, pay for itself. And if you choose to take from Peter (or the Gazans) to pay Paul (or Hamas), your lose all credibility when you claim to rule in the name and for the benefit of the Gaza Palestinians.

I don't want to go into insulting your intelligence in pointing out that I am not proposing a quality of life comparison between Palestinians and Israelis (oh damn, I just did. My apologies). Nevertheless, I am confident that you know full well the difference between this and comparing military spending relative to civilian spending between the two, and that deflecting into matters of socio-economic and political power imbalances between the two, etc., etc., etc., was purely unintentional and an innocent oversight on your part. The same goes for your proposition that there is no such land as Hamas. Of course there is not, but you must be aware that Hamas is in control of the land called Gaza. And you must know that Israel doesn't claim Gaza for itself. And if you want to stick to the apocryphal pro-Palestinian narrative, you shouldn't be calling Gaza their ancestral land. Supposedly, 80% of the Palestinian ancestors of current Gaza residents migrated there after 1949, after Egypt annexed the territory for itself.

Of course, you are free to choose any storytelling style you want in idle conversation, but keep in mind that the opinions expressed by you are yours and yours alone. Likewise, I will reserve the same privilege for myself.

And at what cost?

And what capacity water treatment plant could have been built for that sum?

on behalf of the Palestinian people depends on what the answer to your questions is?

Yeah, sure.

what sum of money are you talking about?

And your response was, and I quote, "So how many doses of that drug are they estimated to have bought in total?
And at what cost?"

YOU are the one who made inquiries into quantities and cost of the drugs Hamas procured for their cutthroats. YOU are the one who suggested that the validity of my judgement is dependent on the quantities and the cost involved in the fundamentally immoral transaction I am talking about. It is on YOU to tell ME what sums of money you are talking about.

You said money for A not for B. What money?

You held up A and B, two bad things, next to each other and connected them by talking about money. Yeah, of course they are both bad. It is facile to pretend that is in question. What's the connection?

I know of no instance of either one being procured without money, or its equivalent, and I was certain that this fundamental principle is self-evident and does not require any additional connections to be established.

The OP makes it evident that Hamas procures drugs. It is self evident that money is being used for this transaction.

Media reports make it clear that most of Gaza water is polluted and is not suitable for drinking. This presumes that the water treatment infrastructure in Gaza, which Hamas is responsible for maintaining, is not being adequately maintained. Hamas, which, as a matter of priority, seems to have money for drugs, doesn't, as a matter of priority, seem to have money for the maintenance water treatment plants. This is my premise in principle, and it has nothing to do with transactional value of each proposed instance of procurement.

This is the long version of what I said in the OP. I can't believe I had to go into this protracted explanation, but here it is. Sorry, I cannot make it any easier for you to grasp.

of US dollars. It would be astonishing if Hamas's drug use were an opportunity cost so large it could move that needle, which is why I asked for numbers. Can't explain it any simpler than that either.

Quit deflecting to it, I explained myself pretty thoroughly.

Meantime, you are not showing any evidence that Hamas spent a single penny on the Gaza water infrastructure. So what grounds do you have to even bring the subject up?