She starts into her act when the camera is close enough.

At 2:30, a boy is being pushed into an IDF soldier so that those with cameras can hopefully get an exclusive of an IDF brownshirt nazi SS stormtrooper in his jackboots attacking a poor defenseless child for no reason.

This type of activism is child abuse.



There's so much more that's so very wrong with a video like this, when you really think about it.

ya that's really obvious that little girl is wearing a wig and

maybe even makeup to make her skin look lighter

even bet on a close up we'd see blue contacts in her eyes


or



maybe just maybe





someones quite full of 'it', but has failed to burp






take your choice I've made mine who's feelin' gassy, not me

What is really relevant and really salient in this video is how a bunch of little children are manipulated or pushed by their parents and a bunch of photographers towards a crowd of armed soldiers, where they stand right up close and in their face and proceed to scream - I don't know what, I don't speak Arabic, but I assume they are not admiring their pretty uniforms. One of the children even makes a lunge for a soldier's gun. Now you show me any other army where soldiers manning a checkpoint or border in hostile territory will not only allow civilians and photographers so up close and personal, but would do so with such forbearance, even smiling and laughing.

I dare you to send your children to a US Army checkpoint say on the Mexican or Canadian border, not to mention hostile territory like Iraq or Pakistan which would be more equivalent to the situation in the video, and see what would happen to the children, the parents and the press photographers. At the very least you would see mass arrests. You would also be likely to see lots of shooting and dead bodies.

The video proves that the IDF are not the monsters they are typically made out to be. The children are manipulated precisely BECAUSE the parents know they will come home safely.

But if you can't see that you need glasses and possibly a new insight test.

who regrets slamming his rifle into a Danish activists face - in front of a camera

everyone looks terrified that their children will be hurt in that video shown above.

Proof that this is what Palestinians do: Send their children out to try and antagonize soldiers into touching them in any way. They would sacrifice their children's lives for some decent footage embarrassing the IDF. What a truly sick, diseased society.

or are ya feeling frustrated today for some reason?

Last edited Thu Nov 8, 2012, 12:58 AM - Edit history (1)

'They would sacrifice their children's lives for some decent footage embarrassing the IDF'

Why would anyone at DU say something as nasty and bigoted as that, let alone come along and agree with it being said? That was ugly and bigoted and should be no more acceptable here than if it had been said about Israeli society.

I think your wrong, but try adress it to the dude who wrote the post, Shaktimaan.

I do not want to be drawn into that hostile game.

You said: 'His post is a bulls eye '..

It's really sad that anyone would think that calling Palestinian society sick and diseased isn't bigotry. The reason it's bigotry is because it's a broadbrush generalisation of another people. It's bigoted for people to say things like that about Israeli society, and it's every bit as bigoted for it to be said about Palestinian society. I don't see how anyone could see it as bigotry in one case and not the other...

The post did not call "Palestinian society sick and diseased".

Palestinians who do this with children are sick and diseased.

Just like Israelis who throw rocks at little girls on their way to school are sick and diseased.

I thought it was in reference to this comment:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=20509

My bad.

I reposted for you but if you say so ...........

I thought that person was critiquing a different post that didn't say the things they said they were saying. It was a mix-up.

I don't think Palestinian or Israeli society is sick and I strongly disagree with anyone who says either is.

I do, however, think that the abuse of children by people in any society is sick - and those who do it should be ashamed of themselves. And it's too frequent in every society.

Please adress the poster who posted it instead of following myself around .

( it's creepy )

which VC replied too, so it could hardly be called an exclusive conversation or following anyone around

I'm beginning to get paranoid about it.

Might make for a more agreeable experience.

I'm considering that .

Might not be for everyone - but clearly works for some!

This is a small group, and yr no different to anyone else, in that people who disagree with what you say are going to reply to you. There's nothing creepy at all about picking you up on agreeing with a bigoted post. Though if you think otherwise, yr free to stick me on ignore. But complaining that yr being bullied and stalked when that's definitely not happening is imo disruptive. What's really weird is only a day or so ago, you were appearing in threads and replying to my posts. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=20442 Do I get to shudder and do an insincere *creepy!* about that?

Now, I'll repeat it. When someone comes along and high fives a post that contains bigotry, I'm going to take it up with the high fiver, and I'm going to ask them the obvious question about why they wouldn't think that's bigotry when aimed at Palestinians, but think it was bigotry when aimed at Israelis. Which is what you've been asked, but for some reason you don't want to answer...

Greta Berlin's comments (which were posted and discussed extensively here) don't seem to warrant so much as a mild rebuke.

Seems like bigotry needs to be directed in a particular direction for you to take notice.

didn't you claim on that thread the only reason US Palestinians activist Ali Abunimah condemed Berlin was antiWhite bigotry and in fact went so far as to insert Jew into a title where it did not occur, in an attempt to make a point

here's a link to that thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=18727

and

btw if your wondering why I'm replying for VC she has you ignore bet ya did not know that huh?

1. No, I did not claim that that was the only reason, but race was definitely clearly and explicitly a factor. In fact, there was a whole discussion about the role non-Palestinians can and should be permitted to have in "the struggle".

2. I did not insert Jew into a title where it did not occur. I pointed out that AA made (and continue to make) a point of identifying the nationality (and by extension the Jewishness) of one of these supposed sock puppeteers.

3. The poster you mentioned is definitely not ignoring me. In fact, that poster has responded to me on numerous occasions as recently as last week. I actually consider that poster to be one of my closest friends on this board as we go back quite a long time together. I get the sense that, in spite of some disagreements, the feeling is pretty mutual.

Edit to add: I think of you in a similar way.

care to expand on that any?

Here they are:

1. Didn't you claim on that thread the only reason US Palestinians activist Ali Abunimah condemned Berlin was antiWhite bigotry?

2. Didn't you go so far as to insert Jew into a title where it did not occur, in an attempt to make a point?

3. If your wondering why I'm replying for VC she has you ignore bet ya did not know that huh?

My responses above comport with those three questions you asked in the post I responded to.

And I consider you one of my closest friends and sparring partners on this board (like VC) since we go back so far and have exchanged so many posts. I certainly don't think of you as a bigot.

...of the pro-Palestinian activist movement.

After all, western anti-Israel activists make up the bulk of the demonstrators at the weekly protests in Nabi Saleh.

And they actually pay Palestinian children to confront the soldiers....

Last edited Fri Nov 9, 2012, 06:56 AM - Edit history (1)

...out repeatedly in harm's way, hoping an IDF officer reacts in some violent way towards your child? In order to procure a photo intended to bring about more hatred vs. Israel and the Jews?

Or is it only okay when Palestinian parents do that to their kids?

It's okay for the brown people; not so much liberals like yourself?

=======

As to sick societies, I doubt we can even agree the parents of Shirley Temper are sick. Or that Mahmoud Abbas is sick for encouraging and rewarding this behavior. Or that the western activists who have for years been involved in this 'game' are sick for encouraging it...

I most definitely do, and find it every bit as bigoted as saying something like that about Israeli society. I'd be curious to know whether you see it the same way...

...as political props who they deliberately put in harm's way. Hoping their child is attacked by a soldier.

If we can't agree that this is sick, why move on to how society views it?

That's all I wanted. A simple answer which would have been forthcoming with no games involved if we were talking about Israeli society being labelled sick and diseased...

If you don't want to answer the question, that's fine. I'll leave you to getting back to whatever it was you were doing. Clearly bigotry aimed at Palestinians is just far less important than talking about, well, just about anything else....that is unless it's Palestinian on Palestinian bigotry and then I bet there'd be a new thread that quickly grows on a steady diet of manufactured outrage into over 100 posts

Last edited Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:07 PM - Edit history (1)

...as political props, daring soldiers and/or wanting soldiers to harm them.

I think it's sick for western leftists to encourage such behavior from Palestinian adults when they wouldn't do this with their own kids. Shows how they value non-western 3rd world people and their children. They don't think much of them b/c they're disgusting bigots.

I think it's sick for Mahmoud Abbas and his Fatah henchmen to encourage & reward such behavior. As well as disgusting for western mainstream media reporters who know about this but never report it - and instead - report only Israeli "brutality". In effect, giving these horrible people who abuse kids a green light to continue.

I have no respect for major NGO's who say they're for human rights but turn out to be sick, twisted fucks who go along with this 'game'.

=====

And I'll go beyond Palestinian society. If a majority of the world think this is alright, whether the UN, major NGO's, academic elites, etc.... then they're all disgusting, twisted fucks and the world is still as sick and unenlightened as it was a few generations ago.

A simple yes or no will suffice. Do you think it's bigotry to label Palestinian society diseased and sick? I'm taking a very educated guess that your answer is yes, and if it is, that's a nasty, ugly, and disgustingly bigoted position to take. So if you ignore the question again and go on about something else, I will take that lack of answer as you saying that you do believe Palestinian society is sick and diseased. In which case I'll point out the breathtaking double standards of someone who'd erupt into a 100 post condemnation frenzy if someone were to say the same about Israeli society (which of course is every bit as much bigoted), while believing that very same thing about Palestinian society...

Whether we're talking the majority 'culture' or society, I'd have no problem condemning it as disgusting and/or sick.

I don't have a problem labeling any society that way.

I did it WRT a world not only indifferent to evil, but one that supports it.

I hope I made myself clear now answering you.

The hot topic now WRT Israelis is that they're pro-apartheid (which is utter bullshit). But let's imagine a twisted Israel run by terrorists from KACH running an apartheid state; brainwashing a high percentage of the population into maintaining it in every cruel imaginable way. From the state-run government, to the courts system, to the media and educational institutions.

THAT, to me, would be a sick, nasty, disgusting Israeli society (not just regime).

And I don't see anything bigoted in saying so.

Now if the charges are complete bullshit and Israel is condemned for being a disgusting, sick & shitty nation (despite being demonstrably not & very much the opposite) then I'd say the charge of bigotry enters the equation. What else would motivate the accusers?

Then again, I think it's probably bigoted when people call for the destruction of Israel (anti-zionists and their supporters). You'd probably think the same WRT people calling for no Palestine or its annihilation.

It's pretty easy to read between the lines and see you try to justify bigotry against Palestinians by clinging to an invented one-dimensional vision of Palestinian society built from a mixture of ignorance and hatred.

For anyone to support bigotry against one people while claming the same thing is bigotry when aimed at another is disgusting. It doesn't matter what excuses they want to try trotting out...

...that way when it's warranted; including Israeli society.

How was that not clear to you?

And there's nothing bigoted about it. If you still detect some kind of double-standard where I condone one type of bigotry over another, I'm sure you'll let me know.

I'll tell you why, not that I think you'll care. Let's talk in a language of bigotry that you appear to understand so it might sink in. Antisemites will usually insist that their 'criticism' of Jews is warranted and they'll trot out example after example of something they think supports what they're saying. What they and other sick fucks like them don't realise is their ignorance of a people combined with hatred does not equate to warranting ugly and disgusting stereotypes being used to label any people.

You can also see RW types using the same 'but it's warranted' to try to justify their bigotry and hatred of Arabs and Muslims. And of course what that means is they think it's warranted when it comes to the group they hate, but when it comes to anyone holding the group they support to the same 'standards', suddenly they'll be trotting out excuses as to why it's not warranted and my guess is within five minutes they'd be flinging accusations of bigotry at the person pointing out the double standard...

Claiming that either Israeli or Palestinian societies are sick and diseased is bigoted, and it doesn't matter which society that's aimed at, or who's doing the aiming. It really is that simple. Making ignorant and ugly broadbrush claims about entire societies like that is bigoted, and it really does suck that support of bigoted comments against Palestinians are allowed at DU

You don't. I just explained in some detail why it's bigoted when aimed at either society, and that yr using an 'argument' I've seen used by antisemites and others to justify bigoted comments made against the groups they hate. You ignore it.

But you just go ahead and pretend that this is about my views. I honestly couldn't give a stuff what someone who in this very thread has expressed support of a bigoted comment about Palestinians thinks when it comes to anyone else in this group...

Palestinian society is whatever the ruling power defines it as. That ruling power is Hamas in Gaza or Fatah in the WB. Their fascist, theocratic ideology, denied by many in the West who support their cause, is known to anyone familiar with PMW or MEMRI. This tactic (child abuse) may seem extreme to us, but I can assure you it's what radically repressive Hamas & Fatah have made mainstream in Palestine, by force, along with idolization of Samir Kuntar, and suicide bombers. They made it mainstream thru their government & educational institutions, & state-run media. That is what has led to nearly 75% Palestinians agreeing with the hadith in Hamas' charter about wanting to kill Jews hiding behind stones & trees. Moderates for peace & co-existance have no voice in this fear society.

So yes, it's sick.

Go back and read the post yr replying to where I've explained why. Right now the way yr trying to justify the bigoted comment in this thread (the person who said it had their post hidden for returning and saying it again) in exactly the same way that antisemites try to justify antisemitism, and that's through a complete and utter ignorance and hatred of the people they are making the comments about. We've been through this before. You have no knowledge of Palestinian society, and when I offered to give you some pointers on what to read to learn about it, you showed zero interest. You also have no idea of what a society is....

So, yes. It's bigoted and sick that some here seem to think their own hatred and ignorance justifies supporting bigoted comments. What will you do next? Compare Palestinian society with Nazis? Oh, you've already done that back at DU2.

I fail to see any difference between yr posts and what you rail against...

You equate Palestinians to them.

I've quoted Maryam Namazie before, but I'll do so once again to show the fallacy of your position WRT bigotry of any and everything Palestinian:

I've criticised both Hamas and Fatah in the past, so not sure where yr pulling that nonsense from. Please try and focus. The offensive and bigoted comment you have returned again and again to try to justify was NOT aimed at Hamas or Fatah. It was aimed at Palestinian society. It said that Palestinian society was sick and diseased. Are you following? There is a difference between criticising the political leadership of a people and making revolting stereotypes of an entire people, which is what someone is doing if they talk about Israeli or Palestinian society. I honestly think yr totally incapable of telling the difference...

They are POISONING it with their views and their "resistance" or "struggle" against the Jews.

This latest video from the OP demonstrates how acceptable it is to bait Jews into reacting, in order to demonize them and bring about more hatred against them.

The very fact that 73% of Palestinian polled AGREE with the Hamas Charter hadith to kill the Jews shows how successful Palestinian leadership has been in poisoning and destroying Palestinian society.

There is NO dissent that we know of against this sickness within Palestinian society. Not for lack of critics, but because it's a FEAR society and dissent there isn't allowed without paying BIG penalties.

I stand by my comments.

The fact that you're incapable of responding intelligently goes to show you're desperate and that rather than debate anything, your immediate knee-jerk reaction is to label legitimate criticism as racism and bigotry. Your attempts to stifle all discussion with cries of racism is obvious.

What part of what I'm telling you isn't sinking in for you to be going on about standing by yr comments. Apart from the bleeding obvious fact that I have criticised both Hamas and Fatah in the past, the bigoted comment you've done multiple posts trying to defend was about Palestinian society, not Hamas and/or Fatah. Seriously, what has to happen for you to actually take notice of what gets said to you? Right now it appears like you don't read anything that anyone says to you...

And for someone so determined to justify bigotry against Palestinians in this thread, you sure go all out to try to portray criticism of Israel (oops, or as you now call it 'The Jews') as being antisemitic. And I'm pretty sure yr not even comprehending that yr doing that...

Also, I'm very capable of responding intelligently. Maybe they define it differently wherever you are, but I do take the time to read, comprehend and respond to what's being posted. I'm also intelligent enough to understand what a society is and I'm so totally not interseted in any more attempts to justify what was most certainly a bigoted comment about Palestinians.

For their incitement to kill the Jews? For poisoning the next generation of Palestinians wanting to do the same? For succeeding at making this type of child abuse in the OP video acceptable and justifiable?

Show me where you've done this.

Once you come face to face with what the Palestinian leadership is, but not before then, will you realize how toxic their views have been on the Palestinian population (and greater society). As someone who professes to be pro-Palestinian, I fully expect you to come all out against Palestinian leadership for what they've done to the Palestinians you say you love so much.

I've done it many times since I joined DU back in 2002

It's been pointed out to you several times now and which you've totally ignored each time, the bigoted comment you've been energetically defending in this thread weren't talking about Hamas and Fatah, but about Palestinians themselves and their society. So for you to start throwing around weird accusations that it's not bigoted because criticism of Hamas and Fatah isn't bigoted is incredibly bizarre and suggests that you don't bother reading anything that's said in response to you.

Oh, and I've never said I love Palestinians. Where do you come up with this totally incorrect rubbish?

...and their efforts to brainwash Palestinians into believing the same thing. Or their success at making the OP video acceptable anti-Israel "resistance".

You either ignore or deny this is happening. And by doing so, there's no need for you to criticize Palestinian leadership for it.

So like I wrote earlier, you're against legit criticism of Palestinian leadership.

Once we get past that, we can continue on with how their ideology has poisoned and sickened Palestinian society. I realize you're uncomfortable discussing the really ugly side of Palestinian leadership. Now here's where you're probably thinking that if you do respond, you're going to have to create some moral equivalency fallacy and argue Israel does the "exact same thing", so it's hypocritical for Shira to rant about it. That's how you'll "address" the OP video, if at all.

I can even go back and drag out some old posts where I criticised Hamas for their antisemitism, but it'll have to wait till tomorrow sometime, coz I'm not going to be rushing seeing I doubt you'll retract what you've said even if you do actually bother reading the link.


Once we get past that, we can continue on with how their ideology has poisoned and sickened Palestinian society.

What is it that yr just not comprehending about the fact that saying Palestinian society is sick and diseased is bigoted? What do you not get about being told repeatedly that the tactic you've used in this thread to justify a bigoted comment as not being bigoted is the same tactic used by antisemites to try to justify their bigotry against Jews? what people do when trying to justify bigotry is to trot out 'examples' based on their own ignorance and hatred and use that as *proof* . And it's apparently *proof* because they believe it is, and even though the same bigotry aimed at a group they support is quickly denounced by them as bigotry because they don't believe whatever *proof* accompanies that, they just don't see what they're doing...

So like I wrote earlier, you're against legit criticism of Palestinian leadership.

And it would be just as untrue as when you wrote it earlier. This time seeing it repeated after being corrected on it, I'd also point out that it's at the point where repeating it is dishonest.

...about Palestinian leaders' incitement to and the encouragement and rewarding of attempts to kill masses of Jews? We're not talking ordinary antisemitism here, but murderous intent which goes WELL beyond antisemitism. There's a world of difference b/w garden variety stupid western bigots joking about kikes with big noses vs. intent to mass murder Jews. The latter is what you will not touch. You probably figure all antisemitism is the same (your Moral Equivalency kicking in again) so when you bust Hamas for knocking on Jews like WASPS do when they go on about crooked nosed Jews, that's enough in your view.

Let me put this another way:

All that content we see at PMW has a decidedly negative effect on Palestinians and their society at large. Agree/Disagree? Why or why not? I'm predicting you won't touch this one either and you'll just choose to continue minimizing the extent of Hamas/Fatah Jew hatred. Deflect with PMW is bigoted, etc... so it's not happening. Lieberman is just as bad, etc. Anything to avoid criticizing Palestinian leadership. Please correct me if I'm wrong. You're unwilling to really discuss the very ugly face of the Palestinian "cause".

Can't say I've done that because I leave that routine to others better armed.

See, you originally insisted that I NEVER criticise Hamas or Fatah. Then you must have realised you were soon to end up with egg on yr face, so you switched it a bit to have you criticised Hamas for their antisemitic swill. Then when you realised I had, you've gone and switched it a bit more to the pro-settler frothing. Because apparently being critical of Hamas or Fatah isn't legitimate criticism unless it's OTT ranting about genocide and Nazis and a good link or two to some bigoted anti-Arab pro-settler site...

Let me put this another way.

You appear to be having great difficulties comprehending that when you repeatedly make completely false claims about what I do or don't believe, and then get abusive and imply that I'm antisemitic, and then follow it up with making more crap followed by 'correct me if I'm wrong', I'm not interested in that sort of 'discussion', which is just you yelling at me telling me I believe things I don't and that I haven't posted things I have. I mean, you've been told several times now that I have criticised Hamas and Fatah, yet here you are again with 'Anything to avoid criticizing Palestinian leadership.' Is there some communication problem that's happening? Do I need to put that sort of stuff in bold red font and make it Heading1 so you will notice it? Or is it that you do see it, do comprehend it, but discard it because you've embarked on a specific track where you have everything all sorted out ready to post and little things like factuality suffer because of it?

Last edited Sat Nov 10, 2012, 11:42 AM - Edit history (1)

...and deflection. I once posted videos showing how disturbing Hamas & Fatah's murderous Jew hatred is:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11343829#post90

It doesn't get more foul, sick, and despicable than that.

Apparently that's all RW settler bullshit to you and doesn't exist except in the fevered imaginations of frothing-at-the-mouth bigots. It can safely be ignored. Those posting it can be ridiculed. That way, you never have to confront it. IOW, this is what you've done from the moment you started posting here at DU about I/P.

Hell, you won't even confront the recent OP video above except to say (very reluctantly) that it's child abuse no worse than what was captured in the settler video.

That must be bullshit too.

Same WRT 73% of the Palestinian population being in favor of killing Jews as per the Hamas hadith. You scream bigotry against those condemning all that rather than stepping up to the plate to condemn it yourself. How proud you must be of yourself!

Is it any wonder why people would question your motives WRT anything I/P related?

Once you choose to confront head-on the foul content of those PMW videos as well as the OP above, certain PEW polls, etc, we can then have a REAL conversation about what constitutes bigotry WRT claims about Palestinian society.

Until then, take your games elsewhere or play with yourself.

Sorry, but this is really getting extremely silly. As I've said before, I've been critical of both Fatah and Hamas openly during my time here at DU, so I'm not sure what you think yr achieving from ignoring that and continuing to make false accusations...

As for that link to one of yr own posts. It's very interesting that in a thread where the OP was about Romney and his hatred of Palestinians, you appeared in there to support what he was saying.And anyone who believes the vast majority of Palestinians are wannabe genocidal Nazi types is someone who has some pretty major issues, imo.

But you digress. Again, you seem to ignore that only a moron would want to have a REAL conversation with someone who's idea of a REAL conversation seems to be repeating false claims about the other person even after being corrected multiple times, and who keeps on making the mistake of speaking on behalf of everyone else rather than herself....

Last edited Sat Nov 10, 2012, 04:28 PM - Edit history (1)

"Society" is a set of ideas. Ideas are subject to criticism are they not? Was Nazi German society sick and hateful? Is North Korean society problematic? I believe so, and that doesn't make me at all anti-German or anti-Korean. You are correct that antisemites say that their criticism of Jews is warranted. The issue isn't criticism however, it's that the antisemitic criticism of Jews is a lie. With that in mind, is it fair to say that Jews tend to see antisemitism behind every critique? Not every Jew, perhaps, but it's a fair generalization. That isn't bigotry. I'll give you another one. If Israeli society encourages a belief that Palestinians are animals and "untermenschen" isn't that sick and evil? I don't believe that Israeli society does do that, but if it did, I'd sure say it was sick and evil. So the real issue on this thread is whether the claim of the video is true. Does Palestinian society (whatever that might be) encourage the mis-use of children in this way? Hamas sure does. Is that enough to generalize to all of Palestinian society? I don't think so. But if the generalization is supported by sufficient other evidence, then it isn't bigoted. Broad brush generalizations about entire societies are always suspect, but once in while they are true, and then they aren't necessarily hateful.

A person appeared on another forum I used to belong to and came out with some antisemitic crap about how there were more Jews in Hollywood than in proportion to their numbers in other areas. And when she got told it was antisemitic, she informed me that it was true so therefore it couldn't be bigoted and proceeded to start rattling off long, long lists of people who she claimed were Jewish and in Hollywood right up till she got banned. I don't see how that can be seen as anything other than bigoted.

"Society" is basically a group of people who are related to each other and share common experiences etc. It's closely related to culture, another thing that Shira has in the past equated with Nazis when it comes to Palestinians. political leadership at any given time doesn't have anything to do with the society. For instance, Australian society didn't change when we had the misfortune to have a RW leadership that followed Dubya around fawning over him, and society couldn't be blamed for what the leadership did...

What concerns me a lot in this thread is the way one instance of something is being used to portray all Palestinians as being the same. Should we do the same when it comes to Israelis? I bet if one instance of something really ugly (for example the settler taking their small child into a volatile and dangerous situation where they're attacking a Palestinian farmer) is used to portray all Israelis as being like that, there'd be a whole different reaction. And in this case, the attempt by two in this thread to portray what happened in the OP as somehow being something to judge all Palestinian society on is clearly suspect. I remember reading an interview with Barghouti where he interrupted the interview to order his teenage son not to go doing any stonethrowing at Israeli soldiers because he feared for his safety. Why is it that would get ignored and not used as a generalisation about Palestinian society if people are pulling out one instance of something to make sweeping generalisations about an entire people?

[font color=blue]If anything, it shows that the claim that Jews see antisemitism in every critique or comment is true. The lady was almost certainly correct that there are more Jews in entertainment than there are Jews in the genreal population. Fewer in sports. That's not bigotry, it's statistics. Either it's true or it's not. In her case it was entirely true. Now, depending on why she posted that or what she made of it, she might be considered an antisemite. But merely stating the fact isn't antisemitism at all.[/font]

"For instance, Australian society didn't change when we had the misfortune to have a RW leadership that followed Dubya around fawning over him, and society couldn't be blamed for what the leadership did..."

[font color=blue]True enough, but Australia is a liberal democracy, not a totalitarian state. In fact, I think you are insulting Australians when you compare their Conservatives to totalitarian thugs like Hamas.[/font]

"What concerns me a lot in this thread is the way one instance of something is being used to portray all Palestinians as being the same."

[font color=blue]As it should. It concerns me too. My point is not to suggest that this particular instance justifies calling all of Palestinian society sick or disgusting. It doesn't. But the point of argument is not that all generalizations are wrong. It's that this generalization is wrong.[/font]

In fact, I'd reckon you support it.

Am I right?

at least the Israeli poutrage over it but as I said perhaps IDF has gained the insight to not beat children in front of a camera

Last edited Thu Nov 8, 2012, 06:21 AM - Edit history (2)

on the eve of the UN vote to upgrade Palestinian status with the UN, first you started out implying the girl was specially chosen because she was blond and that it was a staged incident
when that fell flat it became concern for poor abused Palestinian children, well as long as its Palestinians doing the abusing anyway, I see nothing of sort I don't speak presumably Arabic so I really do not know what was going except for the narration in the first video

Here's Shirley Temper from 2011 (a few pics down the page) suffering the after-effects of tear gas.

http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/nabi-saleh-4-year-old-child-on-his-way-home-attacked-with-tear-gas-by-israeli-forces-in-pictures/

Proving mom uses her as propaganda.

After all, what kind of mom takes her 4-5 year old daughter back to such a dangerous area after that?

imprisoned for a peaceful demonstration kind of abusive in a psychological sense anyway

and oh both girls are about 9-10 years old or about twice your claim but who's counting huh?

You see abuse by Israel jailing the father, but no abuse otherwise.

Wow.

Which goes to show Palestinian human rights comes a distant 2nd to you; way behind Palestinian nationalism.

Why not just admit it?

Or, that Palestinian human rights only mean something if Israel can be blamed.

========

Hey, can you admit the video shows activists goading the IDF for propaganda purposes?

and nothing happened most likely because there were cameras present and this incident happen shortly after an IDF soldier slammed his gun in the face of an activist for the cameras

as to propaganda purposes the only ones using this for propaganda are the Pro-Israel activist attempting to pump this for -----propaganda

Guess that'd be because it's Israeli settlers doing it to their own children. This video has only recently been posted in this forum, yet you and other Concerned Citizens don't appear to have the time or interest in saying anything about it. I wonder why?

Thankfully, Israelis aren't conditioned (sometimes by force) by their ruling elite into thinking this type of behavior is justifiable. Reminds me of mothers who smoke around their toddlers, who leave them alone in locked cars, and who scream or curse at others while holding them in their arms.

What makes the ISM video far more repulsive is how routine & how ugly this child abuse is (kick the jew & get him when/if he reacts). How such twisted propaganda is embraced by the "resistance" and tacitly supported by anyone (Westerners included) claiming to be pro-Palestinian. It shows the true face of western "humanitarians" claiming to be for Palestinian civil rights. Most activists in the video are there via the ISM. The video isn't an indictment of what passes as the Palestinian cause these days as much as it also an indictment of what their Western supporters are all about (from the UN to NGO's, BDS, the FGM, Mondoweiss/EI, and random academics). They're all sick fucks eager to make others become Jew hating bigots like themselves.

I don't even think you realise how absolutely revolting that post is. Thankfully? Are you fucking for real? I don't know what planet that post beamed in from, but there's no scale where child abuse is better or worse depending on who does it.

I support the Palestinians and I'm not a sick fuck who hates Jews. Neither are the many other Left Wing DUers who support the Palestinian cause. Given the disgusting attempts today in other posts to try to justify bigotry against Palestinians, I'm going to suggest to you that you may want to stop calling others bigots...

Here's the link to one of the many posts in this thread where you attempt to justify the bigoted comments made about Palestinians as not being bigoted, even though here you are now wildly accusing everyone and anyone of being bigoted against Jews. My how the standards are so very different when it comes to bigotry depending on what group yr talking about...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=20731

I've seen some sick stuff in my time, but that really takes the cake. For fuck's sake. The damage done to a child is horrific no matter who carries out the abuse. There's no 'thankfully' about it...

Israel is like Nazi Germany, Apartheid S.Africa, Colonial & Imperialist forces from yesteryear, the deep racist American south from 50 years ago....

Why do you start coming out with random silly crap like that? Is it some kneejerk thing because I correctly pointed out that you have in the past compared Palestinian society with Nazis? I can go dig up the link to the thread at DU2 if you need reminding.

You're living by the Moral Equivalency Fallacy.

It's why you find Israeli defensive actions against Hamas equal to - or even more disgusting as - Hamas rocket attacks and suicide bombs.

It's impossible to take you seriously when you do this.

And you're doing it again WRT this incidence of child abuse.

There's no moral equivalency about it. Maybe you could explain exactly what it was about the settlers abusive treatment of her own child that somehow made it less damaging or wrong than the other one?


It would really really upset me if someone with yr views on what isn't bigotry against Palestinians, and child abuse, didn't take me seriously. Almost as badly as knowing that RW types don't take me seriously. I lie awake at night fretting over how to get them to like me and take me seriously. *sob*

But you have yet to really comment on what's happening in the video from the OP. The motivation behind it. Who it's aimed at. For what purposes is it being made.

Once you do that, you go ahead and try to compare what the settler mom is doing.

They're not exactly the same thing.

============

Seriously, you need to learn from the Moral Equivalency Fallacy. That way, you'd hopefully start to distinguish yourself from RW fundamentalist types who see all "sins" equally. As it is, you're "exactly the same" as they are.

They were both examples of children being put in dangerous situations with no thought to the safety of the child. There's no 'thankfully' when it comes to one or the other, nor is one to be condemned while ignoring the other because it suits yr agenda.

Again, you don't know any more about fallacies than you do about Palstinian society or the history of the conflict. Because of course they're not the same thing. One was done by Palestinians and the other by extremist Israeli settlers. And that difference matters a lot for some...

You probably believe the settler mother coordinated her remarks with the camera man, trying to goad her opponent into attacking her child for propaganda points. In order to make Palestinians appear to be subhuman Jew hating Nazi savages.

You must believe that.

It's why you said they're exactly the same.

What I said was that there's no sliding scale where some child abuse is worse than others based on who does it.

What I'm seeing from you is a burning desire to minimise the child abuse from the extremist settler, and I find that extremely disturbing. And I still find that 'thankfully' really disturbing.

The bottom line is it shouldn't matter if the abuser is Israeli or Palestinian. That should just so not come into things when it comes to child abuse. Unfortunately it's the most important thing for some folk such as yrself, and that's not good at all...

I'm not minimizing any child abuse. That's what you are doing.

You're running interference for the Palestinian mother by pointing to a settler woman who does "the same thing". You're deflecting criticism from the Palestinian mother and are avoiding at all costs the content of the OP video. If that's not minimizing child abuse, nothing is.

I'm just not playing your game, that's all. I'm not willing to equate "all sins" like you are.

Enough of this de-railing attempt. You want to argue about the settler mom, open a new thread. I have no objection discussing that with you. When you're ready to discuss the significance of the OP video, do let me know.

That's what was exactly the same.

And I'm not minimising child abuse. I'm not the one who sat there and went off on a 'but' to try to minimise the abuse of a child because the parent was an Israeli settler. That's all you.

I'm absolutely positive I'm not running interference for anyone. What I did was quite rightly point to a recently posted video of child abuse which you'd totally ignored. Ignoring one for what looks to be like because the parent and the child were Israeli settlers gives a big hint that the motivations for getting all outraged have nothing to do with concern about children, but to try to score some propaganda points or whatever it is people think they do when they go on like this. As I said before and you keep on ignoring, it shouldn't matter one iota whether the parent and child is Palestinian or Israeli...

You are avoiding at all costs the deliberate attempt to use her girl as a propaganda stunt; hoping to get a reaction out of an IDF soldier in order to send video out to the world portraying Israel and its Jews as monsters.

THAT is the Palestinian mom's motivation.

Otherwise, you're right about both moms putting their children in danger. However, those who don't fall for Moral Equivalency Fallacies know that what each mom did isn't considered the same from a legal or moral standpoint. You are so desperately trying to equate the two acts precisely because you want to run interference for the Palestinian mother and her vile attempts to deliberately put her child in harm's way. At best, the settler mother can be accused of negligence. The Palestinian mom gets the book thrown at her in comparison. Yes, both are guilty but their "sins" are not considered the same in the Lord's eyes.

Reminds me of your attempts to equate any Israeli defensive reaction to rockets with Hamas' attempts to rocket civilians.

You minimize Hamas' terror attempts by running interference via deflection just as you're doing now. That's your idea of "criticism".

It's a pretty simple concept to grasp. Tacking 'thankfully' and then galloping into a diatribe blaming politicians for one and making out that makes all the difference is really objectionable.

Oh, so yr reminded of my attempts to <insert some stupid thing here that has nothing to do with what was being discussed>. Strange how you can see all this stuff I supposedly say that isn't there, yet when it comes to things I actually do say (like my criticism of Hamas and Fatah) it magically becomes invisible. You'll have an idea of what my idea of criticism is if you bothered to take the time to go read in the archives and see what I actually say instead of what you invent for me...

Again, this is a discussion forum, and I don't run interference for anyone. I really do think you take this whole thing far too seriously...

You're still avoiding the OP, btw, and it's obvious.

Simply pointing out that your Moral Equivalencies are shit isn't minimizing anything. Your fundamentalist view that all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord is nonsense. But I realize this is the best you've got.

What do you think of the ISM now that their tactics (in the OP video) have been exposed? Are you still very supportive of them now that their ugliness has been exposed once again?

I posted it as a recent example of a video of child abuse that got posted in this group that was studiously ignored by those who claim to be motivated by the welfare of children. Unlike you, I was quick to say I thought the OP was child abuse...

btw, since when has there been any rule at DU that says someone who posts in a thread has to address the OP? You certainly don't do that, so it's a bit hypocritical to demand something of others you don't do yrself...

Oh, and another bit of baloney to add to the massive pile. I don't hold any fundamentalist views and I don't believe in god or sins and have no idea what yr talking about. You really have to stop putting words in other peoples mouths.

Sorry, but if you ever want to have a genuine discussion with others, you should try being less hostile and nasty, and do a bit less of the implying that I'm a bigot, and a lot less of the repeating false claims about my beliefs even after being corrected on them.

Last edited Sat Nov 10, 2012, 11:47 AM - Edit history (3)

I know, it's a game changer for you here. A total and complete narrative buster.

You won't even comment on it other than saying very reluctantly that the video is child abuse. I can't help but believe you refuse doing so b/c you tacitly support what's going on there. No, not child abuse, but the overall tactic to convince others to hate Israel and its citizens. You won't ever admit that this sick, bigotry is one of the primary goals of Palestinian resistance. You certainly won't condemn it if you can't acknowledge it. So it seems you support it. The ISM sure as hell does and you support them too, without reservation.

That's sick.

The same ISM that set up and is still knee deep in the now discredited (and provenly antisemitic) FreeGaza Movement.

Takes some nerve of you to accuse others of bigotry.

Go back and read the post you hit the reply button on without reading the post. Then return and try addressing what I said rather than totally ignoring it all and continuing along as though no-ones bothered saying anything to you. The way you keep on coming back and making up stuff about my views despite the fact that I've been very clear as to what they are isn't a good debating tactic, imho....

Y'know, you don't really have any credibility at all when it comes to discussing bigotry, not given the amazing double standards that have been displayed in this thread. For some reason equating Palestinians with Nazis and saying their society is sick and diseased is embraced and defended, but everyone who supports the Palestinian cause is accused of being a bigot. That bar which is raised so very, very high when it comes to bigotry against Palestinians gets dropped a fair bit when it comes to bigotry against Jews....

So, I'm absolutely appalled that you think child abuse is worse if it's carried out by a Palestinian than it is if carried out by an Israeli. As I've said many times now, whether the person doing it is Palestinian or Israeli is totally irrelevent...

Last edited Sun Nov 11, 2012, 09:51 PM - Edit history (1)

All I see from someone who professes to be pro-Palestinian is you running interference distracting and throwing smoke screens away from the elephant in the room. That elephant in the room is wide-scale child abuse perpetrated for the Palestinian cause against Israel.

You keep writing that I'm hypocritical for not showing more concern about the settler mom and her abuse. You're missing the point, and I believe you're doing so deliberately. It's part of your attempt at moral equivalency where all "sins" are the same. The settler mom is just as bad. Well no, she's not just as bad. Smoking and cursing in front of your child or leaving them locked in the car for a few minutes is child abuse, but its not the same as raping a child or pushing that child into armed soldiers pining for a good photo op. I know that you know the difference but persist with the bullshit.

What's hypocritical is folks like yourself who agonize over anything Israel is perceived of doing vs. Palestinians. Well here's a prime example of what Palestinians and their western supporters are doing to Palestinian children. They're destroying Palestinian society. All of a sudden you're not interested. THAT is where the hypocrisy lies and it's monstrous. This child abuse is ongoing and you're pretending it doesn't even exist. That way, you don't even have to condemn it.

Here's a website dedicated to documenting child abuse during anti-Israel activity:
http://palestinianchildabuse.com/

When pro-Palestinian types are deliberately blind to wide scale abuse like that and pretend it really isn't happening, how can they expect for people to take them seriously WRT human rights in the I/P conflict ever again?

It's monstrous and evil to deliberately ignore, deny, and run interference for such horrendous child abuse.

That said, it's a joke when you pull out the bigot card WRT comments about Palestinian society. Palestinian society cannot be understood correctly without taking these things you refuse to recognize into consideration. I may not profess to be pro-Palestinian, but whatever people here think of me WRT Palestinians, I don't wish them ill like their so-called defenders do when they tacitly support such abuse.

against evil Palestinian children.

Really ?

That's ignorance .

my comment related to the silly claim she was chosen because she's blond but don't let that stop ya

but yes there are blond Arabs and there are Black Arabs too

...hoping the soldier strikes back in order to score political points?

You'd do that?

Or encourage only Palestinian mothers to do that?