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Sharon warned Begin Israel ‘could be accused of genocide’
Archives release protocols of cabinet meetings on the findings on the ’82 Sabra and Shatila massacre<snip>
"Rejecting the recommendations of an investigative report into the Sabra and Shatila massacre, defense minister Ariel Sharon told prime minister Menachem Begin in February 1983 that Israel “could be accused of genocide” were the report to be accepted. Six months earlier, Israeli forces in Lebanon had let members of the Christian Phalange fighters into the Palestinian refugee camps, where they killed hundreds of people.
Thirty years later, on Thursday, the state archives released protocols from the six cabinet meetings that dealt with the massacre and the possible implications of the ensuing investigation, led by Judge Yitzhak Kahan. Though some of the material is still classified, dozens of pages were uploaded and made visible to the public.
In light of heavy public pressure to look into the September ’82 massacre, Kahan, then the president of the Supreme Court, was appointed chair of a special investigative commission. In its conclusions, the commission recommended the removal of Sharon and two IDF generals from their posts, but did not lay direct blame for the massacre on Israel’s doorstep. After hours of debate, the cabinet approved the findings and Sharon was forced out of office."
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King_David
(14,851 posts)The Lebanese Christians Militias.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I remember entering into an argument with a dubious individual who just would not admit that Sharon standing aside and letting the militias enter these camps was the cause of the massacre.
If you let atrocities happen, when you could stop them but don't, then you are guilty of the crime by association. Yet some just dig in their heels to deflect away from the fact that Ariel's darkest hour was when he let a massacre take place when he could have prevented it.
I'm sure that there must be a few pensioners left in Moscow that dream of the good old days where Stalin never did any wrong and that it was that evil Beriya who was to blame for all those disappearances.
King_David
(14,851 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:49 PM - Edit history (1)
another dubious poster.
The apologistas never fail in their ongoing effort to paint Sharon in a glowing light.
"The Lebanese Christians militia had anything at all to do with the massacres?"
They sure did, and we can all tip our hats to the Butcher of Beirut that enabled them with the way in
Kahan Commission findings
The investigative Kahan Commission found the Israeli Defence Forces indirectly responsible for the massacre and that no Israeli was directly responsible for the events which occurred in the camps. The commission also asserted that Israel had indirect responsibility for the massacre since the I.D.F. held the area.
---
The Commission also concluded that Defense Minister Ariel Sharon bore personal responsibility "for ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge" and "not taking appropriate measures to prevent bloodshed".
Care to keep on pointing away from who was responsible?
shira
(30,109 posts)...Jordan, and Gaza. Since Israel is the "source", it's Israel's fault that Palestinians have it so bad outside of Israel. You're doing the same thing here and refusing to hold Arab actors accountable for their actions against the Palestinians.
You're wholly incapable of harshly criticizing violations of Palestinian human rights committed by neighboring Arab regimes and militias. From Syria, to Jordan, to Kuwait, to Hamas.
I'm sure they all appreciate your support via deflecting towards Israel.
You're doing wonders for the Palestinian victims who continue to suffer under these thugs.
Congrats!
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Hi Shira!
Now there is also this thing called the law. Perhaps you have heard of it before?
I am not sure about Israeli law and how it applies to the murder of Muslims or Palestinians and Lebanese, but there is a legal term that can easily be applied to this case called being an accessory.
Being a accessory to a crime is where one party assists in the commission of a crime but does not necessarily participate in the crime itself.
Ariel, the Butcher of Beirut, was an accessory to the the massacre at Sabra and Shatilla.
The Commission determined that the massacre at Sabra and Shatilla was carried out by a Phalangist unit, acting on its own but its entry was known to Israel and approved by Sharon.
Possibly if one were to read up on the massacre, you can read I hope, they may come away with the conclusion that the deaths of innocent Palestinians and Lebanese really don't rate that high with Israeli public opinion and can be swept under the carpet.
Perhaps I am wrong, and thanks!
shira
(30,109 posts)...but you're totally okay with the non-Israeli perpetrators getting off scot-free. That's what your "advocacy" amounts to when you never call them on it, nor care to do so. Not once have you or your lot even attempted to hold the Phalange accountable for what they did (and they never were held to account which isn't surprising given your comrades don't care, but it's something none of you should be proud of either). It's not as though Sharon knowingly hired assassins to murder Palestinian innocents. He didn't do that, but you're going on as if he did.
WRT all other violations going on today in neighboring countries surrounding Israel, at least your lot doesn't go off the deep end absurdly placing blame on Israel for what happens there (as you do in your lame attempts). However like yourself, they do ignore, explain away, deflect from, and whitewash it all in an attempt similar to yours to never see that the real perpetrators and oppressors are held to account & that these bad guys stop doing harm to Palestinians you and your comrades purport to care about.
Pretty despicable.
FAIL.
============
ps,
I can't let your argument about Israel being the cause of all Palestinian suffering everywhere and for all time since 1948 go on w/o the ridicule it so richly deserves. You realize the Palestinians initiated a civil war against Israel that preceded the big one (Arab nations combining to fight Israel)? What would you have Israel do? Take them all back in and start again at step 1 - the civil war again? How you have the audacity to blame Israel (for everything) given the circumstances goes to show how morally bankrupt your position is.
Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)A hint that yr going off the deep end is to goin through yr post and look at all the 'you' (insert accusation here) bits are peppered throughout it. Nothing in the post you responded to warranted the vitriolic response it received. If you have a problem with the findings of the Kahan Commission, go complain to whoever came up with those findings, but don't take it out on other DUers...
btw, who's 'your lot'?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)In fact, they can complete ignore what you are saying here.
King_David
(14,851 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Especially when they are completely hypocritical about it.
shira
(30,109 posts)There's one side here that tries to be understood clearly and attempts very hard to understand the other.
Then there's the other side, very harsh and critical, which is not as interested in clarity. They do not wish to understand the other as well (calling them Israel firsters and rightwingers) and they're wary of clearly explaining their own views. The more they hide their views, the less they can be criticized and attacked for holding them. And consequently, the more they can remain on the offensive and smear the other.
It's an online game.
Must be from some anti-Hasbara guide.
King_David
(14,851 posts)The post could have easily been directed to him/herself as much as anyone it was directed to.
delrem
(9,688 posts)
Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)I guess you must be busy in some other thread and yr too busy to bother answering 
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)people on the same day...give her a break now, will ya.
Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)It's possible to be concerned about the supposed lack of attention people pay to Tibet while not knowing enough about it to even know it's landlocked and to have not participated in any discussions at DU about Tibet.
I know I was impressed!
I had the misfortune a few years ago to encounter a bunch of zealoted and very nasty supporters of the Chinese occupation. Guess who they reminded me of...
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Now there is also this thing called the law. Perhaps you have heard of it before?
I am not sure about Israeli law and how it applies to the murder of Muslims or Palestinians and Lebanese, but there is a legal term that can easily be applied to this case called being an accessory.
Being a accessory to a crime is where one party assists in the commission of a crime but does not necessarily participate in the crime itself.
Ariel, the Butcher of Beirut, was an accessory to the the massacre at Sabra and Shatilla.
The Commission determined that the massacre at Sabra and Shatilla was carried out by a Phalangist unit, acting on its own but its entry was known to Israel and approved by Sharon.
So I don't blame Israelis for having a butcher in their midst and finding out about it afterwards, but I do have to scratch my head and wonder how they, or you for that matter, can live with themselves after letting him off so easy and then voting him in later as PM.
Possibly if one were to read up on the massacre, you can read I hope, they may come away with the conclusion that the deaths of innocent Palestinians and Lebanese really don't rate that high with Israeli public opinion and can be swept under the carpet.
shira
(30,109 posts)But looking back at how the Phalange escaped all accountability for their actions and the way in which Arab regimes do the same WRT their crimes against Palestinians outside of Israel......what do you think about your efforts to shield these folks by focusing exclusively on Israel? Do you think Palestinians are better off when you cover for the acts of their Arab oppressors?
If you're not going to answer that, then don't bother responding.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)And anybody shielding these people should be charged as well.
Any and all human rights violations the world over should be met with justice.
I know that you desperately want to always divert attention away from Israel, since as the only Democracy...ahem in the M.E. that it has the misfortune of being ruled my murderous assholes, but the OP was about Sharon warning Begin that Israel could be accused of genocide.
shira
(30,109 posts)The Phalange and their leader have never been held to account and that hasn't bothered the pro-Palestinian contingent one bit. It's that vile hypocrisy that's so disturbing.
I wouldn't know you're disturbed by it one bit as you can't seem to stop blasting Sharon as if he was the Mafia boss ordering a hit.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I just did, Shira. Do you need glasses?
Also, at the time I was very outraged by their actions: which were allowed to bear fruit by Sharon and the IDF.
Imagine that. A democracy in the Mid East allowing such carnage to happen.
Look at it this way. Sharon also walked away to become PM. Does that trouble you that he was involved with the massacre by sitting on his hands when he could have stopped the Phalange from entering Shatila and Sabra?
I'm not sure why you want to build that straw man so high, Shira.
Sharon wasn't a Mafia Boss. He was a policeman that looked the other way, and could have stopped a crime but let it happen.
I'm not sure what part of the world you live in, Shira, but I would hope that if you saw a crime or knew one was about to take place that you would stop it. Perhaps you might even lift a finger to save the lives of some innocent Palestinians.
shira
(30,109 posts)It seems you're accusing Sharon of more than he was found guilty of...
I'm serious, BTW.
You're badly misinformed.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Frankly he should have never served in office ever again let alone climb to the height of PM.
He's not alone. The US let some people off the hook with regards to the whole Viet Nam war. Mi Lai? Ever heard of it?
shira
(30,109 posts)I had this discussion recently here with someone else and brought up the Kahan findings.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=10228
You're wrong.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Shira, when you post to your own links on DU, where you are torn apart by another DUer It does not make your point look any more valid. It makes your point look lazy for at least not trying to make your argument appear original.
Just go away, Shira.
I asked YOU, Shira, if you would stop a crime if one were happening or about to happen. Would you?
I don't believe that I ever have written where Sharon had advance knowledge of the massacre. Could you point out the quote verbatim where I wrote that?
The closest thing that you could cite was this:
Sharon wasn't a Mafia Boss (as you try to set up a straw man). He was a policeman that looked the other way, and could have stopped a crime but let it happen.
I never said that he had advance notice. He just didn't do the job he should have. Why let these militias into the camps to begin with? What did he expect that they were doing, coming to afternoon tea?
shira
(30,109 posts)...or assisting in murder, while at the same time assigning minimal blame to the Phalange who have never been held accountable.
You're making up charges the Kahan Commission rejected.
=============
If you care so much about justice being served, why are you not laying into the Phalange leadership with at least as much passion as you do Sharon?
I really want to know why you hold Sharon more accountable than the actual perpetrators of the massacre.
Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)And he was partly responsible for the massacre. That's fact. Deal with it.
shira
(30,109 posts)Stunning rationalization there.
Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)You must be to be sitting there getting offended because he got called exactly what he was...
shira
(30,109 posts)Makes no difference either way, your mind cannot be changed.
Yes?
He's a butcher if he's an accessory and even if he's not an accessory he's still a butcher?
Amazing.
Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)Of course he's a warmongering butcher. Are you totally unaware of his history?
You must be to be sitting there getting offended because he got called exactly what he was...
-------------------------------
I'm taking it yr totally unaware of not really caring about his history, or you think he didn't exist and hadn't done anything bad prior to the massacre?
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Perhaps you need to look up the legal definition of accessory.
I never assigned "minimal blame" as you suggest. Bad form there on your part.
"You're making up charges the Kahan Commission rejected."
Now you are the one just making things up.
And the rest is just your usual cadence of untruths and distractions to push any blame of old fat bastaad out of the picture.
You really need a new shtick.
Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)It really does appear that you haven't...
btw, the poster yr now flinging invective at isn't making an attempt to shield the Phalangists, so that question from you was a loaded question along the lines of 'have you stopped beating yr wife yet?' I'm not sure why you demand that people answer 'questions' that are posed to be insulting and offensive.
Oh, and given that you admitted openly in this group that you can't recall expressing any concern for Palestinian victims of Israeli abuse and mistreatment, and then immediately deny that Israel mistreats or abuses Palestinians, it's hypocritical to run round accusing people of doing the exact mirror image of what you admit you do yrself...
shira
(30,109 posts)...
Contentions and accusations were advanced that even if I.D.F. personnel had not shed the blood of the massacred, the entry of the Phalangists into the camps had been carried out with the prior knowledge that a massacre would be perpetrated there and with the intention that this should indeed take place; and therefore all those who had enabled the entry of the Phalangists into the camps should be regarded as accomplices to the acts of slaughter and sharing in direct responsibility. These accusations too are unfounded. We have no doubt that no conspiracy or plot was entered into between anyone from the Israeli political echelon or from the military echelon in the I.D.F. and the Phalangists, with the aim of perpetrating atrocities in the camps. The decision to have the Phalangists enter the camps was taken with the aim of preventing further losses in the war in Lebanon; to accede to the pressure of public opinion in Israel, which was angry that the Phalangists, who were reaping the fruits of the war, were taking no part in it; and to take advantage of the Phalangists' professional service and their skills in identifying terrorists and in discovering arms caches. No intention existed on the part of any Israeli element to harm the non-combatant population in the camps. It is true that in the war in Lebanon, and particularly during the siege of West Beirut, the civilian population sustained losses, with old people, women and children among the casualties, but this was the result of belligerent actions which claim victims even among those who do not fight. Before they entered the camps and also afterward, the Phalangists requested I.D.F. support in the form of artillery fire and tanks, but this request was rejected by the Chief of Staff in order to prevent injuries to civilians. It is true that I.D.F. tank fire was directed at sources of fire within the camps, but this was in reaction to fire directed at the I.D.F. from inside the camps. We assert that in having the Phalangists enter the camps, no intention existed on the part of anyone who acted on behalf of Israel to harm the non-combatant population, and that the events that followed did not have the concurrence or assent of anyone from the political or civilian echelon who was active regarding the Phalangists' entry into the camps.
It was alleged that the atrocities being perpetrated in the camps were visible from the roof of the forward command post, that the fact that they were being committed was also discernible from the sounds emanating from the camps, and that the senior I.D.F. commanders who were on the roof of the forward command post for two days certainly saw or heard what was going on in the camps. We have already determined above that events in the camps, in the area where the Phalangists entered, were not visible from the roof of the forward command post. It has also been made clear that no sounds from which it could be inferred that a massacre was being perpetrated in the camps reached that place. It is true that certain reports did reach officers at the forward command post - and we shall discuss these in another section of this report - but from the roof of the forward command post they neither saw the actions of the Phalangists nor heard any sounds indicating that a massacre was in progress.
Here we must add that when the group of doctors and nurses met I.D.F. officers on Saturday morning, at a time when it was already clear to them that they were out of danger, they made no complaint that a massacre had been perpetrated in the camps. When we asked the witnesses from the group why they had not informed the I. D. F. officers about the massacre, they replied that they had not known about it. The fact that the doctors and nurses who were in the Gaza Hospital - which is proximate to the site of the event and where persons wounded in combative action and frightened persons from the camps arrived - did not know about the massacre, but only about isolated instances of injury which they had seen for themselves, also shows that those who were nearby but not actually inside the camps did not form the impression, from what they saw and heard, that a massacre of hundreds of people was taking place. Nor did members of a unit of the Lebanese army who were stationed near the places of entry into the camps know anything about the massacre until after the Phalangists had departed.
Our conclusion is therefore that the direct responsibility for the perpetration of the acts of slaughter rests on the Phalangist forces. No evidence was brought before us that Phalangist personnel received explicit orders from their command to perpetrate acts of slaughter, but it is evident that the forces who entered the area were steeped in hatred for the Palestinians...
Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)Maybe you should try educating yrself on things like this and drop the zealotry that leads to blind defense of extreme RW warmongers like Sharon. Israel was found to be indirectly responsible. I'm not sure what you think bolding random bits of text achieves, except for showing how much yr willing to bold to try to defend Sharon. The Report recommended that Sharon be dismissed as Defence Minister, and the uproar in Israel at the time over it was what led him to resign in the end. Or are you going to insist that didn't happen?
Anyway, here's a link to the actual report, and here's the Commission's recommendation when it comes to Sharon
The Minister of Defense, Mr. Ariel Sharon
We have found, as has been detailed in this report, that the Minister of Defense bears personal responsibility. In our opinion, it is fitting that the Minister of Defense draw the appropriate personal conclusions arising out of the defects revealed with regard to the manner in which he discharged the duties of his office - and if necessary, that the Prime Minister consider whether he should exercise his authority under Section 21-A(a) of the Basic Law: the Government, according to which "the Prime Minister may, after informing the Cabinet of his intention to do so, remove a minister from office."
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign%20Relations/Israels%20Foreign%20Relations%20since%201947/1982-1984/104%20Report%20of%20the%20Commission%20of%20Inquiry%20into%20the%20e
No offense intended to yr killer and finely honed 'research' skills, but it really does help if you read the entire Report. I did a few years ago, but I think it's time I'm going to sit and read through it again in case you try any more of that selective stuff again...
shira
(30,109 posts)The report you cited states:
Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)What I pointed out was that you were doing some whitewashing and very selective reposting and bolding of bits of the Report. Which is why I did what you didn't do and supply a link to the full Report for people who want to read the thing in context...
btw I have read the Report. You'd have known that as well if you bothered to read other people's posts and weren't so busy creating alternate versions of what you would have preferred they said...
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)It also recommended he be fired from the position of Defence Minister. These aren't my claims, they're what happened. They're right there in black and white in the report...
btw, I've mentioned several times now that I had read the report. If you read my posts, you'd know that!
King_David
(14,851 posts)The way you bark out orders to us all.
Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)Yr schoolteacher must have failed or been a terrible teacher, as to give orders, someone has to be actually telling people what to do. I wasn't. I don't know what's up with getting rude and nasty, as I'm not rude to you, so I'd appreciate it if you could try again to be civil. After all, I saw you only a week or so ago in other threads telling other DUers that they needed to be civil. You should really try leading by example, don't you agree?
Have a lovely afternoon!
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)The Kahan Commission determined that Ariel Sharon and several others were at least negligent in their duty and should have known that there was a danger that such massacres might occur. Under these circumstances they should not have permitted the Phalangists to enter the camps, or should have at least taken steps to ensure that no massacres occurred, or should have intervened to investigate and stop the massacres once suspicious reports began coming out of the camps. Sharon was forced to resign his post as defense minister. Despite the widespread disgust and distrust that he inspired in Israel because of his role in the Lebanon war and in the massacre, Sharon was eventually was rehabilitated and became Prime Minister of Israel in January of 2001.
http://www.mideastweb.org/kahan_report.htm
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Carry on, shira.
shira
(30,109 posts)...that one. What's so difficult about it?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)all IDF did was unlock the door and let the Phalangists in, then look the other way, why that is no responsibility at all
King_David
(14,851 posts)Of this massacre .
In fact if one were learning about it from some people they would be forgiven if they understood that Israel actually committed the massacres themselves and not the Lebanese Christian Militias ?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)however it seems you do feel Israel is responsible for what happens in it's militarily held areas?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Now there is also this thing called the law. Perhaps you have heard of it before?
I am not sure about Israeli law and how it applies to the murder of Muslims or Palestinians and Lebanese, but there is a legal term that can easily be applied to this case called being an accessory.
Being a accessory to a crime is where one party assists in the commission of a crime but does not necessarily participate in the crime itself.
Ariel was an accessory to the the massacre at Sabra and Shatilla.
The Commission determined that the massacre at Sabra and Shatilla was carried out by a Phalangist unit, acting on its own but its entry was known to Israel and approved by Sharon.
So I don't blame Israelis for having a butcher in their midst and finding out about it afterwards, but I do have to scratch my head and wonder how they can live with themselves after letting him off so easy and then voting him in later as PM.
Possibly if one were to read up on the massacre they may come away with the conclusion that the deaths of innocent Palestinians and Lebanese really don't rate that high with Israeli public opinion and can be swept under the carpet.
Perhaps I am wrong.
Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)I'm pretty sure most DUers who participate in this forum know that Israel was an accessory to the massacre and that it was the Phalangists who carried it out. Do you know what an accessory to a crime is, Dave?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...and please define accessory to the crime for us, while explaining exactly how Sharon fit the description.
Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)I don't know why yr now referring to us with the royal 'we', but seeing you totally ignore anything anyone explains to you, you can go grab yr own dictionary and work it out for yrself..
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)And I'd warn anyone reading yr selective copying and pasting of the findings that they use the link I supplied in my reply and go and read the actual Report for themselves...
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)Or are you going to try arguing that the Commission didn't find him indirectly responsible?
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)Go back. Read that thing with the question mark after it and try responding to that.
Also, I'm not really understanding yr question. It's not about what I believe. It's about what the Commission's findings and recommendations were. Why don't you try sitting down and reading it?
shira
(30,109 posts)....when you accuse Sharon of the worst (for being an accessory, or not) or for being responsible (personally or indirectly). I don't think you know where you stand.
Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)And where the fuck are you conjuring me up saying that Sharon was the worst?
I'm not sure what bit of this post didn't register with you. Because there's no contradiction whatsoever on my part. Feel free to explain what bit of what I said there has confused you...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=32624
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)I'm not really getting what the point of yr question is...
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)and place all of the blame on the Phalangists.
Sharon was the bad, or lazy cop that looked away: letting the Phalangists entry to the camps. He's guilty of that.
delrem
(9,688 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Another Israeli official who feared a massacre was Deputy Prime Minister David Levy. On September 16, during a cabinet meeting at which the ministers learned that the Phalange had been allowed into the camps, he said, “I know what the meaning of revenge is for them, what kind of slaughter. Then no one will believe we went in to create order there, and we will bear the blame,” according to the documents Anziska found.
But Sharon told the Americans that the conquest of West Beirut was justified because there were “2,000 to 3,000 terrorists who remained there.”
At a meeting on September 17 that included Foreign Minister Yitzhak Shamir, Sharon, several Israeli intelligence officials and Draper, Shamir did not mention the slaughter that had occurred in the camps the previous day, according to Anziska.
They all knew what was going on. They let it happen. They chose not to stop it.
delrem
(9,688 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,976 posts)Even pointing out that Sharon was indeed indirectly responsible for what happened appeared to be too much to handle. That's in stark contrast to the protests in Israel by people calling for Sharon's resignation as Defence Minister.
Anyway, who wants dibs at breaking the news about Qibya, another fine moment in Sharon's career? 
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)at the very least, besides wasn't IDF supposed to be in control, we hear so much about responsibility ect
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Times of Israel all good?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)occasionally a source is stinky but not always
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Which sources make your stinky list?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)by occasionally a source is stinky but not always I meant articles or OP's not the source as a whole
IMO very few sources are entirely stinky however some do lean Right and others lean Left, I'd be open to almost anything used as a source, there are obvious ones such as Pam Gellers site or even Press TV but even then.......
Thanks for clarifying.
rateyes
(17,438 posts)Butcher is a good name for him. He knew what the LCM was up to, and looked the other way...and, he was right when he told Begin that Israel could be accused of genocide..because, Sharon himself was guilty of genocide in Israel's name.
Fat rat bastard.
