Some good information in there. Thanks for posting.

This man is a very sensible Israeli. Frankly there are not many of them left.

just not in this Government ,

trying to think of examples to give you and staying away from the politicians this is a group I'm involved with :

http://www.onevoicemovement.org/

OneVoice is an international grassroots movement that amplifies the voice of mainstream Israelis and Palestinians, empowering them to propel their elected representatives toward the two-state solution. The Movement works to forge consensus for conflict resolution and build a human infrastructure capable of mobilizing the people toward a negotiated, comprehensive and permanent agreement between Israel and Palestine that ends the occupation, ensures security and peace for both sides, and solves all final-status issues in accordance with international law and previous bilateral agreements. The 1967 borders form the basis for the establishment of an independent, viable Palestinian state, with permanent borders and any modifications to be agreed upon by both parties. The Movement recognizes that violence by either side will never be a means to end the conflict.

Do you have direct contact with any of the other organizations listed under here:

http://www.allmep.org

these organizations :
http://www.allmep.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=4

I've heard of most of them , have had direct contact with the Givat Haviva Educational Foundation , been to many a seminar there its not far from where I live. Our kibbutz is from the same federation ...
the Kibbutz Artzi Movement , HaShomer HaTzair .

Had some contact with Keshev in the past .

in the Israeli government

Your wasting your time and effort Jefferson23
shira is no moderate
she is also not Israeli she is American , she is defending her religion
cant expect reason and facts to get in the way now can you ?

Mosby
and I'm an atheist

I'm with Yoram Kaniuk :


The author Yoram Kaniuk is expected to ask the Tel Aviv District Court this morning to order the Interior Ministry to permit him to "leave the Jewish religion" by altering his entry under the heading "religion" in the Population Registry. Kaniuk wants any official state document on which he appears as "Jewish" to be changed to "Without Religion."

An earlier request to the Interior Ministry was turned down and Kaniuk explains in his petition that he does not wish to be part of a "Jewish Iran" or belong to "what is today called the religion of Israel."

Because the State of Israel does not recognize the Jewish nationality they suggested at the Interior Ministry that I convert to Christianity or Islam, but to be a member of the Jewish nation without the religion is impossible.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israeli-author-yoram-kaniuk-asks-court-to-cancel-his-jewish-status-1.361720

Already posted as a reply to shira which she conveniently ignored,see :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=36730

I'm for 2 states for 2 people and would've been delighted to see the Palestinians accept the Clinton Initiatives, Geneva, or Olmert's offer.

I doubt you'd say the same, making you the extremist.

and you do not understand us at all shira

You seem to assume that leftists are one-staters and liberals are two-staters; or that leftists are anti-Zionists and liberals are Zionists - or what? Or are you simply using 'leftist' as an insult?

As far as I'm concerned, the difference between the terms is primarily economic. A liberal supports a predominantly free-market capitalist economic system, but, unlike a right-winger, does support a safety-net for those who cannot manage in the free market. A leftist supports an economic system that emphasizes the public sector - at the extreme (communism) without any private sector at all; but more usually a mixed economy where the public sector plays a prominent role. There may be some correlation between liberal vs leftist views on economics and positive or negative views about Israel, but views on Israel certainly don't define or determine whether someone is a liberal or a leftist, or the other way round for that matter.

it was a very good question

Signatories range from some excellent progressives to some fairly disgusting people; so I'm sure do its opponents, depending on their reasons for opposition. I cannot support it in its full form because it supported the Iraq war, and some of its signatories do so to this day. Also one of the main signatories was Gisela Stuart, MP, a MONSTER in my opinion because she went out of her way to express support for Bush over Kerry in 2004. (Ironically, if I lived in her constituency, I would have had no choice but to vote for her, as she is technically Labour, with a relatively narrow majority over the Tories who are even worse monsters.)

I do agree with the basic economic and social attitudes of the manifesto (e.g. pro-trade union, anti-poverty, liberal on most social issues).

At any rate, you don't need to be a Marxist, Stalinist, or even a left-winger at all, to have been firmly opposed to the Iraq war from the beginning. Most people in the UK were!

neither do I

she is as much as a liberal as MK Orit Struk is a human rights activist

Demonizing & Dehumanizing Jews on a daily basis.

Not giving a rip about Arabs unless Israel can be blamed.

Using Palestinian kids (as the ISM does) as child militants who oppose IDF soldiers.

Essentially doing the anti-Israel bidding of extreme, totalitarian regimes (Syria, Iran, Gaza, etc..)

In favor of RoR and eventually 1-state (Arab majority Palestine) ruled via sharia law, etc...

===============

Let's not pretend there's any difference b/w the extreme Left and extreme Right, all coordinating and working together, all with the same goals....

===============

So tell me, Israeli, were and are you still a supporter of the ISM, FreeGaza flotillas, and BDS movement? You know, being the good leftwing liberal/progressive you say you are? Or are you appalled by their actions?

Do you agree w/ your fellow advocates like Judith Butler of BDS that Hamas and Hezbollah are part of the progressive, global Left?

Will you answer these questions, or dodge them? I notice this a lot from you and your peers...never really willing to discuss what you actually believe and advocate for.

...when this was happening at the time of the arrests of the Fogel murderers:

the settlement of Itamar :

Bnei Akiva youth against Rabin memorial

Students from settlement of Itamar demand that youth movement's secretary-general cancel his participation in rally commemorating slain prime minister, accuse him of contributing to commemoration of 'heritage which led to the murder of many Israelis'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4297411,00.html

Yitzhak Rabin: A Peacemaker Who’s Legacy Still Divides

The event was notable not just for its immense crowds but for the presence for the first time of a representative from Bnei Akiva, the national religious youth movement ideologically opposed to Rabin’s Labor Party and the Oslo Accords, which the general-turned-peacemaker signed with late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.

Some within Bnei Akiva were not happy about the representative’s decision to speak at the event. Pinchas Michaeli, the head of the branch in the settlement of Itamar, wrote of “the deep shock and sadness” that members of his movement felt when hearing of the decision, according to the Jerusalem Post.

“Yitzhak Rabin as prime minister worked, advanced and strove to create an Arab entity which works tirelessly to destroy the State of Israel,” Michaeli added.

The debate is nothing new. Rabin was a divisive figure in Israeli politics for signing the Oslo Accords, which right-wingers viewed as overly conciliatory to the Palestinians and creating a security threat to the Israeli state.

"We have here unprecedented political radicalization. We've gone farther than ever and now it turns out that the murder was just a stop on the way. The violence has become more widespread; mosques are torched, churches are damaged,” she said of the “price-tag” phenomena.

Rabin Yaakov warned that if radicalization amid some sections within Israeli society isn’t stopped, her brother’s murder might become “illegitimate,” the Israeli public “apathetic,” and Yigal Amir, the gunman, might be “released from prison.”

"Yizthak's murder didn't happen in a vacuum," she said. "It was preceded by incitement and a terrible atmosphere that was foreign to the Israeli society and culture I knew.”

Rabin Yaakov’s words come months after the release from prison of the killer’s brother, Hagai Amir, who assisted in the assassination. He told reporters in May that he had no regrets, adding, “I am proud of what I did.”

http://www.jspace.com/news/articles/yitzhak-rabin-a-peacemaker-who-s-legacy-still-divides/11510

I'm no fan of extremists of any type, be they rightwing or left, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or Atheist. They should all be put on an island together to sort their problems out. Unfortunately a big island will be required, probably a continent. Maybe several continents...

What was your point of bringing that up?

And how about that episode with Machsom Watch?

"What was your point of bringing that up? "

"And how about that episode with Machsom Watch?"

Yes, some settlers are so extreme, they are thugs and terrorists themselves. It's a big problem and the law should come down harder on them.

So does this mean the Fogels are just as extreme & had it coming to them - the little children included? And that it's natural for Machsom Watch members to console the mother of the 2 boys who murdered them? A mother who not only helped to cover up what her sons did, but later said she was proud of them?

The Fogels lived in Itamar they moved there from Gush Katif , they could have moved to Israel proper but chose to live on land that does not belong to them in a settlement know for its extremism .

Did you read the link I gave you ?

" As if someone has to earnestly explain he objects to the slaughtering of infants... "

Machsom Watch was in the village to monitor the human rights of all of the inhabitants who were being collectively punished both by the IDF and the settlers ....a week before the names of the suspects were published

Its a smear campaign by the right against the left and if you cant see that and you see something wrong in a Israeli woman comforting a Palestinian woman then I feel sorry for you shira.

...they did so after the investigation was concluded and after the killers had already re-enacted the murder in Itamar.

Here's Yaakov Lozowick, and it cannot be said he's a right-winger or lover of extreme settlers....

The story of the investigation was under a gag order for a month, until its successful conclusion. Still, Israel being the very small place it is, anybody who cared to know had a pretty good idea what was going on. In brief, immediately after the murder trackers identified tracks of the suspected murderers from Itamar to the nearby town of Awarta. We now know that the two suspected murderers walked back home after the massacre of the Fogel family, where a number of their friends and relatives burned their clothes and hid their weapons near Ramallah. The investigators, who had reason to believe the murderers and potential accomplices were in town, but couldn't yet have known who, how many, how well armed, and if they intended to murder again, sealed off the town and began to investigate. At a minimum, the investigators knew the murderers had the two M-16's stolen from Itamar. At one point they collected DNA samples from most of the men. Had anyone come forward and admitted their part in the massacre the investigation would have been greatly expedited, but this didn't happen, so the investigators had to find their men in a hostile environment. They succeeded in less than a month. The week before the gag order was lifted the suspected murderers were brought to Itamar to re-enact the murder, so everyone in Itamar knew they'd been caught; soon, everyone else who cared knew, too, even if the precise identities of the murderers were not yet known.

At this point a delegation of radical Israeli leftists visited the town: after the investigation, mind you, since as they openly said in their subsequent reports, during the investigation itself they couldn't get in.

his report is wrong , I know who I believe and trust and they were in during the investigation
see here :

http://www.machsomwatch.org/en/news/02/05/2011/im_tirtzu_calls_criminal_investigation_machsom_watch

Quote :

The picture was taken about a week before the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) revealed the identities of the suspects.

In response to Im Tirtzu, Yaron said on Sunday that Machsom Watch had visited the village just as many other human rights organizations had.

“I was there like other human rights organizations on April 11, a week before the names of the suspects were published, and there were no soldiers in the area, and therefore the claim that we disrupted the soldiers’ work is baseless,” she said.

Nothing I say is going to change your opinion anyhow .

Your pro settler and pro occupation shira , I'm anti settler and anti occupation
its like oil and water .

As if murdering them was rational and they all had it coming. Why else would you have explained how extreme some settlers are?

Yaron knew where she was, didn't she? She knew she was consoling the mother of one of the murderers, right?

Lastly, refusing to dehumanize settlers doesn't mean I'm pro-settler and pro-occupation. I would describe you and those like youthat way. After all, I'm for 2 states and would've been delighted had the Palestinians accepted either the Barak or Olmert offer (or Geneva). It appears you guys are against those deals. The occupation and settlements should've been over in 2000 or 2001. You and your friends are holding out for a better offer, more Israeli concessions...but where's that getting you? 12 years later and the settlements/occupation continues. But that's okay because those deals weren't fair, right?

all Jews have a connection to Israel
and that it is based on religion
if it was based on Nationalism
then we would not be having this conversation because both you and shira would be living here .
As far as I am concerned American Jews can have their say, on one condition .... that they are never allowed to take part in our election process .

And it's true you can not be a true Zionist without making Aliyah .. Agreed

They have no vote at the moment
and hopefully it will stay that way

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/if-israel-lets-ex-pats-vote-what-s-to-stop-enfranchising-all-jews-1.265926

something that we've seen supported here by Israel's supporters recently, especially since the UNGA decision on November 29 2012

http://www.geneva-accord.org/mainmenu/col-ret-shaul-arieli

...when and after Israel gets rid of the far right lunatics who are currently ruining the country's reputation.

but according to some here anything should be good enough for them