lets see as far as i understand no matter whos in charge in Egypt:
Mubarak, Morsi, the Army...israel always controls them, just ask anybody here.....

Maybe "concerned" people like yourself should blame Hamas.

so no points there

Hamas is the ruling government in Gaza. Once they call off the dogs and show they want peace and coexistence, the siege should end. But not a moment sooner. They're still at war with Israel.

well...are you going to blame israel for it?

does israel also control the egyptian army?

what makes asking such a question "dishonest?"

such as Hamas id suffering instead of telling the truth it is the people of Gaza, not just Hamas

Fascinating.

seems some here want a diversion from the obviously inaccurate weasel worded headline from the Lebanon Star

Hard to take your posts as seriously after that comment.

the same establishment that supported the Israeli invasion of Israel, and which, according to Wikileaks, would support it happening again.

It's dishonest and weasel-like to not report on that, isn't it?

I pointed out the inaccuracy in the headline and how pro-Israel media has used the same technique in the past

hamas is the govt and the headline reflects that...the article explains it further.

but now for the fun stuff....well?
israel or egypt to blame for the tunnel shut down...come on, you can answer, its just an opinion

the headline is misleading, whether by design or 'accident' is immaterial

i had no problem with the headline..to me it was clear and i assume it was to the writer and tp most others. Hamas is the govt they get the responsibility. The fact that you read it through your own filter is simply the way you see things.

im just glad that you've finally freed Egypt from the Israeli/US choke hold.
____

as to why they've shut it down, its probably as punishment for having their soldiers attacked and killed in the sinai, which is being turned in to a lawless land partially due to all the weapons that get smuggle through there.

hamas is not very good at diplomacy.....apparently they have a problem with consequences for their actions as Egypts reaction, they are shutting everything down...with no other alternative route in. (and dont worry I doubt any intl group will even protest.....we wont hear a peep out of them as the Gazans really get screwed....

and your going to clam that they "care" about the Palestenians?

I think the US may have some influence there

however this has more to do with Egyptian security

now you've got me confused:

what egyptian security are you talking about? are you excusing and defending the egyptians for cutting of the gaza food supply? buildings supply?

for some "security" excuse....

As Egypt fights terror in Sinai, Iron Dome deployed near Eilat

Egyptian army deployed near Gaza to stem flow of terrorists from Sinai through underground tunnel network • Israel permits Egyptian army to send armor brigades to demilitarized zones in Sinai

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=10857

Not saying I agree or that Egypt is 100% responsible for blockading Gaza however

thats what i'm curious about....is egypt shutting down the tunnels justified? or in your view is that just an excuse to punish the Palestinians or something or other

the tunnels were reopened, if they continue in this vein then perhaps, I can not say for sure without any knowledge of exactly what went on

The Daily Star of Lebanon is not promoting "the notion that the entire population every man, woman, and child equates to Hamas."

more accurate

also of interest from the Lebanon Star about us page

The end of 2010 saw The Daily Star acquired by new investors determined to raise the bar in order for the paper to continue its evolution and development in harmony with global media trends and advanced technology. The Daily Star, in this regard, sped up its reconstruction program, recruiting more professionals and young talent to enhance the newsroom and spread the source of coverage regionally and internationally.

Read more: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/AboutUs.aspx#ixzz2ZuYMaasn
(The Daily Star :: Lebanon News :: http://www.dailystar.com.lb)

wonder who those 'new' investors are eta as to new investor I do not mean Israeli or Jewish there are other closer to home possibilities Qatar the Saudi's other Western friendly Arab countries

They should have a UNHCR commission enquiry immediately and some BDS sanctions and calls from every nation on earth to condemn Egypt .

( wont happen though .. No Jews live in Egypt )

there is another but my guess is he'll wait 3 weeks or so

Please explain :
Incomplete , 3 weeks ?

Huh ?

is being so enthusiastically celebrated by "liberal Zionists". I guess you'll never die wondering with some people.

Maybe they can even take old man Mubarak off ice and bring him back from Saudi Arabia. Its certainly looking that way.

Certainly nothing that you wrote relates to anything mentioned in the OP.

certainly, it must warm the cockles of Egypt's old guard to see such undying love for the old dictators amongst the hasbarado community.

Nothing you are saying bears any relation to anything I can make sense of.

If you have any thoughts about the actual article in the OP, I'd be interested to hear them.

Also, if you have some insights into what is happening in Egypt and how it may impact the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, I'd be interested to read those as well.

You are usually very perceptive about the region and its politics.

They're "moderate" I hear.

About as "moderate" as the Hezbollistas you've supported for years, now fighting for Assad.

Must be difficult for you seeing these "moderate" factions losing so much popular support throughout the mideast.

funny, that. Are there any non-Arab countries that you can nominate where military dictatorship is preferable to democracy?

And for the ninth time: I do not support Hezbollah in the abstract. As I have said before a number of my extended family were killed by pro-Syrian forces during the civil war.

Between supporting democracy and supporting every government regardless of their policies just because they were elected. That Hamas and MB were legitimately voted in does nothing to mitigate the fact that their policies are dangerous, racist and ultimately undemocratic.

When Vietnam invaded Cambodia they stymied Khmer self-determination. But just bc I support self-determination doesn't mean I preferred the Khmer Rouge to Vietnamese occupation.

I can't recall when the Khmer rouge ever held elections. And if having racist and dangerous policies is justification for a military coup, I doubt that a third of western governments would remain in power, including Israel's.

Good to see that people are wearing their hearts on their sleeves though. Even though the army have managed to slaughter nearly 200 morsi supporters in little more than a week.

The United States government insists it is not taking sides in the Egyptian crisis but investigators at the University of California, Berkeley, say they have documents that tell a different story.
.......................................................

The report says that Washington gave money to senior figures in Egypt's opposition, many of whom wanted Mohamed Morsi deposed as president.

Among the groups that are said to have funneled millions of dollars to Egyptian activists, is the National Endowment for Democracy, a quasi-governmental organisation based in Washington.

Money from the state department is said to have been given to opposition members under the guise of "democracy assistance".

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2013/07/201371392855688681.html

...........................

However in a grand and surely crippling show of disapproval

U.S. Halts Delivery of F-16 Fighters to Egypt, in Sign of Disapproval

President Obama, in his first punitive response to the ouster of Mohamed Morsi as president of Egypt, has halted the delivery of four F-16 fighter planes to the Egyptian air force.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/25/world/middleeast/us-halts-delivery-of-f-16-fighters-to-egypt-in-sign-of-disapproval.html?_r=0

surely the loss of these jets will all but ground the Egyptian air-force, here's a list of their present aircraft that'll show just exactly how damaging this is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Egyptian_Air_Force

...than those they're replacing.

should be left to the Egyptian people, not to foreign intelligence agencies and happyclappers like you.

Does supporting the American democratic republic mean I have to support when some right wing asshole passes a law in his/her state that further makes it harder for people to vote, make it harder for women to have a say in what happens in their bodies? Nobody here called for a military coup in Egypt even when the odious Muslim Brotherhood took power and proceeded to form an Islamic dictatorship. Being free to vote doesn't mean anyone is going to support whoever you elect in the name of democracy - all elections have consequences. Go blame the people in Egypt.

doesn't mean that you have to support the a "right wing asshole" when they come to power. However, it does mean that you need to recognise that they won the right to govern through a free and fair election, and that therefore they should not be ousted by means of a military coup.

Something apparently lost on you, as well as quite a few folks here.

Egypt had a military coup that ousted Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood pals - am I supposed to be upset at that?

This is, after all, "Democratic Underground", and many of us here actually value democracy.

In particular, some of us take a dim view of military coups against democratically elected governments, particularly if they are helped along by foreign intelligence agencies, as seems to be the case here.

I am not a fan of the CIA-backed coup against the democratically elected Iranian government in 1953, or the US-backed coup against Salvador Allende in 1973, or the US-backed coup against Hugo Chavez (even though Chavez had attempted a coup himself in 1992), or the US-backed coup against Mohamed Morsi in 2013.

But I suppose as long as there is an official line there will always be people prepared to toe it, I suppose. Four legs good, two legs bad, and all that.

absolutely right. Given this is far from a perfect world, I'm not going to cry about a group like the Muslim Brotherhood getting booted out of power - especially when it seems it was done with the approval of so many citizens. It wasn't as if the military swooped in when everyone was satisfied with what was going on and seized power. Do I think elections should be decided by how many people take to the the streets? Of course not. But I watched as Morsi and his band of Brotherhood pals consolidate their power and make individual rights a pipedream for Egyptians....watching the people take to the streets was something I would like to see more of right here in the US. I'm honestly not the least bit upset that the Brotherhood was kicked to the curb.

Democracy might be messy, discordant and painfully slow, but its still the best model we have.

Meanwhile, it looks like the military in Egypt look set on returning things to how they were before:-

I'm fine with whatever group does it and maintain it's something I'd like to see more of here. I'm staunchly and without apology against any group that wants to institute religious law anywhere. Religion is used to make women's lives miserable. I'm in full agreement there should be free and fair elections in Egypt but I still aint going to cry about the Brotherhood losing their grip in Egypt. I don't have to respect whatever group is in power just because they won an election.

Not supporting democracy would mean I don't want elections. If you think anyone who wins an election deserves a freeking parade, that's your problem.

A bit fucking pointless holding elections if you're not prepared to abide by them.

Not me, not you. Next time you bitch about someone trying to put American values where they don't want them, try and remember this conversation.

Egyptian Magazine: Muslim Brotherhood Infiltrates Obama Administration

http://www.investigativeproject.org/3869/egyptian-magazine-muslim-brotherhood-infiltrates

thanks shira you never disappoint

wonder how those numbers would look now, that is if people dared to answer honestly, saying that they did then after a brutal military coup

People are craving stability at this point in time, the guy who sells pancakes just wants to sell pancakes, and democracy can go to hell.

Thats understandable. Perhaps less understandable is the willingness of the youth protest movement to throw their lot in with the military. I imagine with the secret police force being brought back (they never really went away) hopefully the more prescient amongst their numbers would have already realised their mistake.

Morsi, for his part, played a bad hand pretty poorly. The Army was always his biggest threat, but given that they are the only vaguely functional institution in Egypt he couldn't do much to curb their power. The one attempt that he did make to clip their wings was greeted with shrill cries in the Western press that he was trying to seize power for himself.

Meanwhile, unemployment was at 25%, there was no money in the public coffers, revenue streams such as the tourist trade had dried up, and you had the secular liberal elites in the cities trying to stir up support for a coup.

starting with this poll in late April (same pollsters as above )

that Mubarak is still in Egypt and in a prison hospital.

Maybe he can have a medical miracle and suddenly be healthy again?

But seriously, I do not agree with coups, but Morsi also was basically ruling as a dictator and going against the will of the people, who were expecting him to be moderate, fair, bring a change of breath to Egypt.
Instead he brought in Sharia law (or near sharia law) and devastation to the Egyptian economy.

however, its testament to the pap-extruding, sphincter-like tendencies of the Western media, and the suggestibility of most of their audience, that that nevertheless seems to be the prevalent view over there. Reminds me of the Soviet scientists arriving in the US and marveling that the supposedly free media nevertheless excelled in parroting the one-eyed, government-mandated line.

the MB is a religious based political group, who believes in the implementation of shari law which is simply anti democratic, anti western values.

the only reason one needs to white wash it is, is because one has blinders on and has some agenda. The MB has been waiting to take power since the 1920's and have never traded in their values for being hounded by the govt. When they finally got power, they were not going to suddenly change their values and accept "western values'
_______

Politically Morsi was just too impatient and went ahead to fast. If he watched what the religious did in Turkey, he would have realized that you need to control of the army, and to do that is to send in MB members to join the army and slowly climb the ranks until they are in influential posts...then you can take over the country with your religious law and the army has been neutered.

the guy simply went to fast but for those with their eyes open, it was obvious that MB is simply a variation of hamas

As betwixt Israel and Turkey, which one forbids civil marriage and divorce, which one has official clerics that are appointed by the government and which one has a religious test as the primary means of acquiring citizenship?

israeli democracy to turkey?
whereas israel is going more and more liberal turkey is going more and more towards shari law...or are you not up to date on the latest happening?

are you seriously attempting to tell the non educated here that turkey is more liberal that Israel?

lets see you state that clearly:______________________________________

I would never compare Turkey to Israel. Turkey is far more secular than Israel.

The "latest happening" is that Erdogan has allowed religious schools to accept students as young as eleven. Whereas Haredi schools in Israel of course can take students as young as they like.

Clearly, if Turkey has "sharia law", Israel is being run by the Taliban.

Reminds me of your insistence that the MB was moderate, or that Hezbollah wouldn't be helping Assad in Syria.

How wrong can you get over and over again before it starts becoming embarassing for you?

that someone like you would have the opportunity to engage in substantive discussion with someone like me. Its a pity that you don't make the best of that opportunity, but it is remarkable besides.

I marvel at the superior intellect.

Are you deliberately trying to make yourself into a parody?

simply scoffing, rolling your eyes and making an incredulous expression might serve you well on a Fox News breakfast television panel, but they're not going to do you much good here.

To recap:-

1.

a) Israel has no constitution, but holds itself out as being a Jewish state.
b) Constitutionally, Turkey is a secular state:-

"The Republic of Turkey is a democratic, secular and social state governed by the rule of law" - Article Two of the Constitution of the Turkish Republic

2.

a) People acquire citizenship in Israel primarily by means of a religious test
b) It is impossible to acquire citizenship in Turkey by means of a religious test

3.

a) It is forbidden to wear religious head-dress on government property in Turkey, including universities and hospitals (a recent law overturning the ban on headscarves was struck down by Turkey's constitutional court)
b) There is no similar impediment to wearing religious headwear in Israel

4.

a) Israel makes political appointments of religious clerics - there is a Chief Rabbi of Israel
b) Turkey does not appoint a Chief Imam of Turkey - religious appointments are left to the religious authorities

5.

a) Israel pays social security benefits to yeshivot to enable them to pursue full-time religious studies
b) Turkey does not pay financial stipends to people who wish to read the Quran full time.

6.

a) Israel funds state schools and religious Jewish schools, but not Islamic schools
b) likewise, Turkey funds Islamic schools, but not Jewish or Christian Schools.

7.

a) Turkey funds mosques (including financial benefits to imams)
b) Likewise, Israel funds synagogues, including financial benefits to clerics.

I'd say thats five points to Turkey, and two draws.

In fact, "scoffing" seems to be the norm around here.

Incidentally, all of your points about Israel are wrong.

1. Israel is a secular state, with secular laws. It does not define itself religiously in any respect.

2. There is no "religious test" to acquire citizenship in Israel. In fact, countless atheists have done so.

3. Allowing any and all head-wear regardless of religion is a hallmark of most secular societies (such as the US).

It's hard to take all this seriously - which is why I think you must be parodying yourself.

Could you not come up with five reasons that Turkey is less secular than Israel if you tried? I'm confident that you could.

steaming crock of shit than if you had tried.

The law of return is open to those who are Jewish, or that have at least one Jewish grandparent.

In order to satisfy this requirement, an applicant is required to produce:-

Religious documents, such as evidences of Jewish marriage, bar mitzvah, or a conversion certificate from a recognized Jewish authority, either in relation to the applicant or at least one of his or her parents or grandparents

A letter from a rabbi or recognised Jewish authority vouching for the applicant being the member of a Jewish congregation or alternatively at least one of the applicants parents or grandparents.

Either way, it takes a fair bit of intellectual dishonesty to insist that there is no religious connotation to the law of return. And just to clear the air, yes, I regard you as habitually dishonest.

Israel does not have laws that are entirely secular. Marriage and divorce, for example, is almost exclusively the province of religious authorities in Israel, whereas in Turkey only civil marriage and divorce are permitted. Apart from minor exceptions it is not possible to have a civil marriage in Israel.

Israel is not a secular state. That doesn't mean that it is a theocracy. Iceland, for example, is officially a Lutheran state but is not a theocracy. Instead, like Israel, it is somewhere in the middle.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ...

LOL

if converted to fluid ounces would barely suffice to put lead in the pencil of a kyphotic caterpillar's cock. Keep trying though, I'm sure someone will give you a job one day.

Last edited Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:18 PM - Edit history (1)

I said that it was more secular. France also has banned religious headwear in schools - not necessarily more democratic, but certainly more secular.

By the way, you do realise you've gone from arguing that Turkey is a "sharia law" state, to arguing that Turkey is a state that oppresses Muslims due to the ban on headscarves? I don't expect much consistency or knowledge of the subject from you, but still this is pretty piss-poor even by your standards.

I wrote;
whereas israel is going more and more liberal turkey is going more and more towards shari law..

you'll notice both words liberal and shari law ....israel being the more liberal country than turkey, by definition will have less religious law

turkey,whos prime minister is taking more and more power to himself, is as product of the religious community and a believer,
that by definition will be less liberal, Apparently some turks also believe so......
____

one cant be more liberal and have more "religious" law at the sometime, they are in conflict. I just tossed out a few anti-liberal examples that turkey has....like i wrote took me 5 minutes.

the slow move toward a more religous country can be seen in the subtle moves by the turkey religious movements: The army once the bastion of secular turkey, is now powerless in that respect, nothing wrong with that in strong democratic country, but for one that has had 4 coups by the army to preserve its secularity is most significant, as well as the dumping of the old officer corp


more than half of Turkey’s admirals are in jail, along with hundreds of generals and other officers (both serving and retired), all on charges of plotting to oust Turkey’s mildly Islamist Justice and Development (AK) government.

The Gulenists have made a comeback under AK and are said to have infiltrated the police and judiciary


http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21571147-once-all-powerful-turkish-armed-forces-are-cowed-if-not-quite-impotent-erdogan-and-his


The symbolism of the reception, as well as the Republic Day rallies in Ankara and Istanbul to protest what many secularists view as the increasing authoritarianism of Mr. Erdogan, underscored Turkey’s deep divides and the threat they see to secularism. Mr. Erdogan’s Justice and Development Party has roots in political Islam and close connections with Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/30/world/europe/in-turkey-protests-reveal-break-from-the-past.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
______


Like i wrote earlier, Erdogan is simply a lot smarter than Morsi of egypt, he's taking his time, first putting in the his "co religious" in the judiciary, in the army, taking more power....and slowly adjusting Turkey to a new reality. Whether or not it will be stopped is only for those who can read the future, but his first steps are very obvious for those who simply keep their eyes open......
___

now you can try to compare to israel, but you will find, that the direction is the opposite, such a marriages (that being the obvious place where the religious have considerable power)

Knesset approves 'thin' civil marriage bill
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3863253,00.html

small steps, but the direction is clear

The Soviet union, for example, was both militantly atheist and decidedly illiberal. Compared to the soviet union, Great Britain was both less secular and more liberal.

Last edited Tue Jul 30, 2013, 07:47 AM - Edit history (1)

particularly those in beit shemesh, for instance:-

There was I leaving you alone .... but you just had to drag me into it .

"but its local......repeat that, its local not national. Now go find something similar happening to israel on the National level and you'll have an argument equal to that of the turkish women.
(maybe the poster israeli has something for you, she believes the right-wing in israel has 'won.&quot "

and therefore are in a poor position to judge whether Turkey is more secular than Israel.

The fact is that just about every Turkish supermarket sells pork, presumably mainly to Muslims. Likewise, you can buy a beer on just about any street corner. The government recently banned the sale of alcohol from convenience stores after 10pm (pubs can keep selling for as long as they like). If that's sharia law, then sharia law exists in every Western capital.

Whether ultra orthodox goons are beating up girls on a local or national basis hardly matters. The fact is that that sort of thing is virtually unheard of in turkey. You can attend even the great mosque in Istanbul with your head uncovered and the worst reaction you will get is a hard stare.

Face it mate, you're wrong.

Hell, that's when the partying begins.

Here's Turkey banning airline hostesses wearing lipstick....
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=58478

Kissing in public is obviously a problem too (see end of article)....
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/31/istanbul-protesters-violent-clashes-police

But oh yeah, Israel's worse.

I'm truly in awe of your superior intellect....

however in my Northern Blue state liquor sales in grocery and convenience stores are banned entirely save 3.2 beer and not allowed after 10pm even in liquor stores

Bars can serve alcohol until 1am Monday-Saturday and until 11:59pm Sunday

as for the claimed lipstick ban it's garish colors that are banned

from your little piece

That's unheard of in western capitals. You're also once again confusing state/local laws with federal laws. Here in MA, there is no convenience store law banning sales past 10pm.

The lipstick ban is also federally mandated in Turkey, as opposed to private business rules here in America. You do realize the difference b/w federal mandates vs. state, local, or private business? You act like you don't.

As to banning public smooching in Turkey, there's this...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/25/turkey-kissing-protest-subway_n_3337004.html

Obviously, this is problematic to secular Turks, not that folks like yourself have problems with sharia societies. Let Israel do this at the federal level and you'd be having a field day, right? Right. Gee, I wonder why...

Some people were shocked by Erdogan's language, but even Turkey's tipplers have to admit that he has a point. The restrictions in this law – no television advertising, no alcohol sales within about 100 yards of a school or place of worship – are the kind of limits already in place in some Western democracies. Furthermore, establishments with tourism licenses are exempt from the law's ban on sales after 10 p.m.

But that exemption doesn't apply to the numerous small convenience stores, called "tekels," that dot Turkish streets. In Beyoglu, arguably istanbul's most Westernized district, one tekel owner would give only his first name, Ramazan. He says the new rules are an economic nightmare for him, unless his customers radically adjust their schedules.
........................................................

Around the corner at the Urban Cafe, young Turks and visitors are enjoying their libation of choice in a setting that might be found in any Western city: premium spirits behind the bar, a lounge cover of Nirvana on the sound system, and cigarette smokers mingling out on the sidewalk, happy for the warm spring night.


http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/06/07/187334924/not-everyone-cheers-turkeys-move-to-tighten-alcohol-rules

my state has similar rules about point of sales distances

and the kissing ban it's on subways, first paragraph from your HuffPo link

If Israel were to do it, you'd be all over it and feign concern.

Go on, tell me it wouldn't be such a big deal if Israel did this. I'm waiting...

and no it would not be a big deal if Israel did it, as I stated my state has liquor laws that are quite similar and in some aspects more restrictive than Turkey's

and a kissing ban in the subway meh bt make as much hay of it as you wish, but for the cow's sake I hope it's a very small herd

They don't know anything about religious fundamentalism and sharia-by-stealth.

Nothing to see here...

oh and within 300 ft of schools and places of worship too, where alcohol is concerned

and sharia by stealth now that's original maybe you could run that past the liquor industry in Minnesota the Congressman from Minneapolis is a Muslim who knows they might just bite

oh and for reference here's a repeat of the Turkish regulations

Some people were shocked by Erdogan's language, but even Turkey's tipplers have to admit that he has a point. The restrictions in this law – no television advertising, no alcohol sales within about 100 yards of a school or place of worship – are the kind of limits already in place in some Western democracies. Furthermore, establishments with tourism licenses are exempt from the law's ban on sales after 10 p.m.

But that exemption doesn't apply to the numerous small convenience stores, called "tekels," that dot Turkish streets. In Beyoglu, arguably istanbul's most Westernized district, one tekel owner would give only his first name, Ramazan. He says the new rules are an economic nightmare for him, unless his customers radically adjust their schedules.
........................................................

Around the corner at the Urban Cafe, young Turks and visitors are enjoying their libation of choice in a setting that might be found in any Western city: premium spirits behind the bar, a lounge cover of Nirvana on the sound system, and cigarette smokers mingling out on the sidewalk, happy for the warm spring night.


http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/06/07/187334924/not-everyone-cheers-turkeys-move-to-tighten-alcohol-rules

Apart from one state, convenience stores in Australia can't sell alcohol at all! I am officially living under sharia law!!!

Can one of you kahanists please get in touch with Barry Rubin and ask him how do I escape from this Eurabian hellhole! Quick, before they cut off my hand to stop me from typing!!! Aaaaaaaaaahhhhjjj!

An advertising ban is also federally mandated by Turkey. Regulation is one thing, banning it altogether? Who else does that?

In most Australian states or territories, alcohol can only be purchased from bars, restaurants or liquor stores!!! Quick I only have two fingers left with which to type help me!¡!!!!!!!! Sharia!!!! Eurabia IMG!!!"%-%$

bars and restaurants can continue serving alcohol as long as they like, as I made clear.

Last edited Thu Aug 1, 2013, 12:53 AM - Edit history (2)

the subject is which way are they "going" more religious or less, keep that in mind when you reply

perhaps you might want to address with the author wrote?..you know about the people who actually LIVE in turkey

Face it mate, you're wrong.
I dont live there, hence i depend upon what i read, obviously you do the same, (of course you dont live in israel and for some bizarre reason you believe you know more that those of us who do)

would you like declare that the turkish woman is wrong? the one who wrote the article and is on the editorial board? Rabia Kazan
SHARIA SHADOW OVER MY SECULAR TURKEY

nows your chance...

I Shaayecanaan do declare that i know more about turkish society than the turkish woman who wrote the article in this link, and do declare that she doesn't know "jack shit about her own society nor do the editors of the online website and that their fears are baseless

_____________
care to endorse it? (and if you would like I'll send it to them, maybe you'll get a reply)


and btw incase you missed my original point...and you're the excellent example: The implementation of religious law is done quietly, and through first a foundation of education (as per the article), influencing the courts, etc all the while that is happening people like u are arguing "no its not happening, because of this example or that example..... Except that if you read the article the woman is a lot more aware of her environment and sees the signs, one step at a time. (how do you think hamas got so influential, how shas got so many mandates for short period?)

you're the dupe...the sucker, the ones she mentioned in her article.....like i wrote, "sign' the email and i'll send it too her comment page

Last edited Wed Jul 31, 2013, 04:59 PM - Edit history (1)

can be read here:http://www.muslimwomennews.com/faces/sn.php?nid=23138

note that even this intelligent Turkish women says that at present Turkey is secular

Turkey today is secular, thats not my argument, its about the direction its slowly moving.

Apparently the author agrees with me not shaayecanaan.....

so, from what you believe, whom do you agree with, the author of the article who actually lives in Turkey and apparently has knowledge of her society or shaayecanaan who is busy arguing that she "doesnt know shit"
_____________________

i see a dilemma for you....agree with her, and by default with me, puts you in a very bad position. I can't recall you've ever really disagreed with anybody on "your side of the line" let alone agree with me.

i bet you try avoiding making a decision....and refuse to agree with the author

(who writes stuff like this:

And I have chosen to accept everyone He created, without conditions, prejudices and with love like He does. This new movement which saves Muslim women from the primitive image of Arabic nomadic life should rather be encouraged than being criticized. Women should be the sole decision makers on what they wear. )

to wear a hijab at universities if they wish and this is the slippery slope to sharia?

as to the rest as I pointed out to another poster Turkey has more liberal liquor laws than the state I live in -Minnesota and the public kissing ban is on subways

Last edited Thu Aug 1, 2013, 10:51 AM - Edit history (2)

in turkey today people can get stoned for not wearing the head covering (see the author's other articles)
honor killings are on an avg once a day (http://www.muslimwomennews.com/n.php?nid=6186)

in israel the can get stoned for walking on the wrong side of the side walk..and i could make a list of the influence of religion as well....
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so whether one is more than other, i don't believe one could honestly say....but that was never the subject that i wrote about, you keep trying to move it. my original assertion is that while israel is going more liberal, Turkey is getting more religious law and that unlike Egypt they are doing it quietly, and slowly
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and the article i found has a very good description of it (and why she is worried.)

you claim she (me) is full of shit....and that she doesnt know what she it talking about...that is your position is it not?

try to answer....and should i pass it on to her (you neglected to answer )

if Israel was more secular than Turkey she would probably say no. That would be my guess, anyway.

In terms of direction:-

a) the national religion of Turkey is not Islam but Turkish nationalism. An Arab is a tribesman first, a Muslim second, and a countryman a quite distant third. A Turk is a Turk first and foremost. They revere Ataturk, Mehmet, and even Genghis Khan far above what they would Ali or Muhammed.

b) The Turks feel spurned by the West. Their relations with the EU have stalled. They had a pretty good offer on Cyprus thrown back in their face. There is no doubt that they looked east for a time. They had that rapprochement with Iran a while back. That didnt last long. Recently they have split with Syria, patched things up with Israel and are now firmly back in the Western camp.

c) Erdogan toured Tunisia, Libya and Egypt back in 2011. At each stop he strongly advised each country to adopt secularism:-

http://www.worldcrunch.com/don-t-be-afraid-secularism-how-erdogan-s-egypt-tour-looks-turkey/world-affairs/-don-t-be-afraid-of-secularism...-how-erdogan-s-egypt-tour-looks-in-turkey/c1s3757/