that's about the same level as America.

first it seems to fly in the face of the claim that most Israeli's are secular, but there is more here is he study itself and keep in mind that the publication was apparently delayed for more than 2 years


http://www.idi.org.il/sites/english/events/Other_Events/Documents/GuttmanAviChaiReport2012_EngFinal.pdf

The stricter a respondent's worldview, the less he identified with democratic values, and vice versa.

this we see here all the time.....the more rigid a person is in their beliefs, the less they believe in democratic values. For instance:

"The Palestinians must have their own independence" belief, this supersedes everything, no matter what the cost in terms of democratic values....

oh I am sure there is something

...both Israeli and Palestinian. No occupation in Gaza resulted in OCL. If Gaza was fully occupied with Israel in charge of all law and order there, no war. Hamas also wouldn't have killed all the Palestinians they've killed since 2006.

Human rights (you know, everyone's human rights including Israelis who have a right to live too) is a democratic value. Arguably the most important of all democratic values.

so the occupation saves Palestinian lives how again? oh wait it doesn't does it, if I remeber lets see how many Palestinians has Israel killed? thousands? so you say it would be even more without occupation?

the right to self determination is a human right one that is denied Palestinians and that your reply and says a right you would see continued to be denied cause it saves lives
how noble of you how humanitarian but you seem confused here

"Hamas also wouldn't have killed all the Palestinians they've killed since 2006"

tell us shira how many is that? oh wait I'll bet you do not hold Israel responsible for its actions do you? Hamas killed all those people even if IDF was dropping the bombs and manning the tanks behind the gun sights controlling the drones ......... nope IDF is never responsible its always the Palestinians fault

...Palestinian authoritative governmental and civil control over almost all Palestinians in the territories (as Oslo called for).

the Palestinians need to be completely controlled is that your point?

Last edited Wed Feb 8, 2012, 03:48 PM - Edit history (2)

The argument is that the occupation saves lives. Thousands have died due to the lack of occupation. I never argued Palestinians need to be completely controlled.

Most Palestinians, if polled privately without any chance of retribution, actually prefer the occupation over PA/Hamas control...
http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=370185&mesg_id=370388

For someone as "pro-Palestinian" as yourself, what do you do with the quotes in that post? Dismiss, ignore or deny them? That wouldn't be very "pro-Palestinian", now would it?

Oh, and here's the best part. As those quotes show, most Palestinians would vote (privately without any chance of retribution) for the occupation to return. That's democracy in action for you, isn't it? How do you like that democracy? Would you support the Palestinians?

all societies do not have the right to declare independence, but all societies (new) have to be democratic. i.e. it doesn't appear that the kurds have any right to their own state, nor does it appear that the Igbo in Nigerial will get their own country anytime soon.

The Palestinians, being politics what it is, unlike the kurds, and the Igbo, are on the path to gain independence, however they lack the basic foundation for a western democracy, infact they have been removing rights since oslo.

having "independence' is not a democratic value, Assad and Syria are independent...hardly democratic, so too is Saudi Arabia, Iran etc

as far as i understand you agree that if the majority of some defined society votes in a theocratic dictatorship and tramples the rights of the secular, then that is ok with you.

i.e. the secular don't have their rights to be "secular" or the reverse, if there is a secular govt, you don't mind having the rights of the religious trampled, those who believe the govt should implement religious law and that is their right

is this not correct?

"Democratic values" are not just meaningless waffle.

*The* democratic value is that all adults should be allowed to vote for the government of the state that rules over them. That's what democracy *is*.

Either Israel must allow the formation of a Palestinian state, or it must allow the Palestinians to vote for the Israeli government.

It's ignorant, stupid, delusional, or plain dishonest to argue that point.

WRT to what Israel must allow....Israel must allow the formation of a Palestinian state as long as it's a real liberal democracy, or at least headed that way.

1) A Palestinian state would be headed in the direction of democracy; the peace deal you so hate is a big step in that direction.

2) Even were it not, it would give Israel no right to control land outside the Green Land, let alone to settle it.

"A Palestinian state would not be a democracy" is a pathetic excuse for "we do not want to give up our illegal settlements", which is the of course the real reason Israel won't allow the foundation of a Palestinian state.

1) A Palestinian state would be headed in the direction of democracy; the peace deal you so hate is a big step in that direction.

The "direction of democracy". Okay then, what kind of democracy? How is some make-believe, pretend peace deal a big step in that direction? Are you unaware of how anti-democratic, anti-west, anti-liberal values, the PLO and Hamas are.

2) Even were it not, it would give Israel no right to control land outside the Green Land, let alone to settle it.

And once again you're pretending Jews have zero claim to land over the 1948 armistice lines. They're not borders. Do you think that Jordan ethnically cleansing the Jews of historic Judea and Samaria gives Palestinians the exclusive rights to all that land? For someone non-religious, you sure do hold all that land sacred for Palestinians, as though it's a crime to negotiate land swaps.

"A Palestinian state would not be a democracy" is a pathetic excuse for "we do not want to give up our illegal settlements", which is the of course the real reason Israel won't allow the foundation of a Palestinian state.

First, I never said that. Second, the settlements are not a reason Israel won't allow the foundation of a Palestinian state. Israel offered to end the settlements and occupation twice in the last 12 years. It's the Palestinians who didn't attempt to counter with something reasonable. And now the PA has ripped the mask off, showing how "serious" they are about peace by joining forces with Hamas, an entity that will never recognize Israel or agree to peace with Israel. If you need more proof of the PA not wanting peace, I can direct you to at least a dozen PMW videos that prove it beyond a doubt.

this is precisely what the article and my comment is all about.

how long has it been since hamas was "voted" in, when MB and friends were "voted in" .....neither group believes in democracy, and just as hamas has been making gaza more and more theocratic, MB will do the same.....(are we done with the illusion of the their western democratic values yet?)

the concept that "voting" does not givesthe right of a people to REMOVE that very right from the people, to destroy a fledging democracy is not democracy.

this is the classic example of hows one "belief" can be so strong, that it ignores that infact its destructive toward democracy.

"Democratic" means "choosing your leaders by voting for them". It does not mean "sweet and cuddly", or whatever you're using it to mean.

so who is this "we"....

Is this something new, that i never got the memo on? Word definitions now being modified on forums as per some kind of "majority rule"

can we take public vote on this definition of democracy, who is for it and who is against?
__

and is this an example of your definition of "democracy" one person declares that they are a "we" and they are the majority and therefore they can make up anything?

lets see some names of this "we" of yours.....

which is why "voting out democracy" is not an option, which is why creating a democracy is more than just voting, it requires a whole education, foundation system to prevent such occurrences.

wasn't gaza/hamas clear enough? the gazans voted in a non democratic govt that has been destroying what little there was of freedoms under the israeli occupation and replaced it with a genetically correct much harsher occupation.

how about egypt? they just followed the hamas example......

and this is your definition of democracy?

Look up the definition of democracy sometime.

...does not a democracy make. Abbas' term ran out over 3 years ago. That's not a democracy.

It's rightwing to be for that.

as to his term expiring it seems once again that the problem has been Gaza is it in your mind "democracy" to hold an election when the people of Gaza would not have been allowed to vote? I'm going to venture a guess that if elections would have been held under those circumstances we'd be seeing salty tears being cried for the 'undemocratic' elections being held when not all Palestinians would be allowed to vote or conversely such elections being touted as proof positive that there are 2 Palestinian states, in any event it would be a case of damned if they do and damned if they don't where Palestinians are concerned for some here

...to their enemies like Islamic Jihad, for example, who would then make both Fatah and Hamas pay?

That you believe a real democracy means one cycle of elections and more of the same WRT insanely brutal rightwing totalitarian rule says a lot. Tell you what, why don't you try living in that "democracy". No rights whatsoever. Let's see how much you'd enjoy that.

As to one cycle of elections that has all there has been much of a chance for strange but it seems those who 'support' Israel expect the Palestinians to have a fully functioning government before they have a free country seems a rather unrealistic expectation but what ever serves the purpose eh?

just as the jews did in 1948, where the people have a say in their govt, and there is no reason not to have such expectations before they get their independence.

the concept that they should trade one occupation for a genetically correct one is beyond me....

Last edited Wed Feb 8, 2012, 07:39 AM - Edit history (1)

okay got it but I would suggest you review Israel's early history it was not quite as warm and fuzzy a picture as you paint

is another way of describing an occupation. Iraq had independence but was controlled by a minority, so too with Syria.. In fact one could describe their "independence" with their real torture chambers, or syrias way of handling their own "intifada" as 1000x worse then israel.

yet as i understand it, and feel free to correct me, you believe the actions of saddam or basham (son and dad), because of their genes is more "acceptable" than the israeli occupation....because they are in "independent countries" and have the proper genes.
____

your answer should be very interesting... (isn't this the "road" to democracy" that is so believed in....)

seems I remember hearing something similar from white South African's during the apartheid era "it'll will just be another Black regime like all the others in Africa" but it did not turn out that way did or will you claim it did?

you see the Left will condemn the those it supports when it's deserved, however that condemnation does not include the denial of self determination

Here's one example for you:

When has the Left condemned the insane antisemitic, homicidal hatred in all those PMW videos? Seems to me they ignore, excuse, deny it, or dismiss it as rightwing propaganda.

And you know this, so why did you make that foolish statement?



Those PMW videos aren't exactly confidence building measures for Israel to end the occupation and negotiate only a paper peace deal. They're also not very indicative of a blossoming democracy.

one of its main sources for anti-Palestinian propaganda and it is true that that PMW's founder Itamar Marcus is not only a settler but was a major contributor to the film Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West, you may be familiar with it from the 2008 presidential campaign when it was used as anti-Obama propaganda

so in your mind this makes PMW a completely credible and acceptable source it must because you use them quite often here

Making the "rightwing" argument and pretending that the PLO/Hamas doesn't do that crap all the time.

I knew you wouldn't be able to deal with it in a straightforward manner.

If you can somehow dismiss clear video evidence, then you can continue to make bullshit claims about the Left always condemning those who they support when necessary.

Did you know that the PLO fired the mufti calling for the killing of Jews last month? They were pressured enough by the USA and EU to do so. The only evidence of the mufti's hatred comes from PMW. Obviously, the USA and EU don't just dismiss clear video evidence in a kneejerk manner like you do.

let me get this straight: the left promotes and aids in the establishment of non democratic independence as in syrian jordan, iran, egypt, Lybia, gaza, west bank...as per their definition of "selective self-determination."

and then gets all surprised when those particular regimes don't turn out to be western democratic and then "condemns them" (despite the fact that those regimes or parties never even claimed to want a western democracy).

did i get that right? promote a dictatorship and then get surprised when it remains a dictatorship and then "condem it"
____

i think the sole exception would be s.africa....but i can't think of any others...got any to prove me wrong?

If they win, they get full control.

If they don't get full control, what's the point?

And when they get full control, that's bad news for Hamas and Fatah. Rule or be ruled. When ruled, you're dominated. Hamas and Fatah know that. So Islamic Jihad will never have a chance to win elections, and even if they do Hamas and Fatah won't give up control easily.

That's "democracy" to you, right?

where do you cook this stuff up from shira?
are you hoping to snare an audience that is completely ignorant of the situation and politics in Palestine? because that would be the nearest thing to a logical explanation of that fantasy

hey I got one for ya the GOP says abortion is the number one cause of death in the Black community- it's about as believable

Or the fact that if given a chance to rule and dominate, they'd do it in a heartbeat and kick everyone else's asses in the territories.

Yet another dismissive post from you.

Can't handle a real debate, can you? Like I've maintained here for awhile, when presented with realistic scenarios or simple questions you guys never have any answers. You'd rather deflect.

It must suck to never have any answers and to be called out for your lame tactics, huh?

so since abbas has not declared himself president for life, that means he actually plans on restoring the election cycle one day....

his only excuse would be, that he wants to strengthen the democratic institutions, but that has not been the case...


Palestinian charged with insulting Abbas online
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4017346,00.html

both HRW and AI called the PA out on that one too so did al Haq, but there were if I remember many a salty tear shed by supporters Israels occupation I guess Israeli detention is more democratic huh?

i didn't ask HRW or anybody else....as i understand it your defending abbas move to suspend the elections, which as i understand, is your primary definition of democracy....

my comment was pointing out that the so called Israel hating NGO's also condemned the PA for its actions in this case but in your mind this constitutes defending the PA's action?

they may be pointing a finger and saying "nu nu nu" but they are not saying " whoa....stop everything" we are not going to be party of the the creation of a theocratic dictatorship or even a secular one. and then do something about it, like teaching about freedom of speech in the schools.

so after they condemned the PA, then what did they do? (hint: nothing)


not impressed.....

ever hear of freedom of speech?

a "right wing talking point?
....is that suppose to mean that if i don't like something or i disagree with it, i make a declaration that it is a "right wing talking point" and there for i don't have to answer it, because it is considered false or

is it because i lack the ability to answer, therefore i make such a declaration?

____

claiming we landed on the moon is a "right wing talking point" (whew! glad i got that out of my system)

so there's no point in arguing with an anti-Arab racist like you.

This kind of bigotry isn't welcome here.

Unless you think being an 'adult' involves making endless sweeping nasty generalisations about people who support Palestinian self-determination...

I've got a real problem with you complaining to the host about something that pelsar himself had done not all that long ago in this group. Maybe you should be telling him to vacate the group as well?

if you do, then address it.

What? You wouldn't consider accusations of antisemitism aimed at members of this group something that you'd complain to the hosts about? Why would I have to do it?

but if I missed it (I skim mostly) and no one else saw it, then who is going to address it?

I'm not afraid of the alert button, but I have to see it to alert on it.

i guess that too is a "right wing talking point".

i get the impression that your strong point is neither, logic, nor the ability to format an argument based on real information.

however, i shall humor you and i think you should explain your "comments" (i'm always up for the "challenge&quot

go for it, but don't disappear when your argument fail and your revert back to simplistic accusations.

The moment someone proves themselves to be more informed than you are, quickly make a radical statement implying great insight (while in fact demonstrating a lack thereof), and make a baseless charge of racism. Because if anyone disagrees with you they are clearly a racist, right?

Too funny. BTW, Israel is in fact a true democracy. I would love to hear why you might think otherwise though.