As usual.

While I'm sure someone will be along shortly to disprove this article somehow rightly or wrongly, for the moment, let's take it as presented.

The government of Israel - that is, the elected, representative body of the state - "caved to pressure" from what is basically Israel's very own howling pack of religious fundamentalists, and now, an Israeli Jewish woman has been stripped of the freedom to go and do as she pleases, because the Rabbinate fears she might meet up with Israel's answer to Omar Borkan al-Gala?

I'm actually hoping one of the usual crew pops up with a good debunking of this, 'cause that's more than a little disturbing.

He's an emerati musician and poet, who recently made news by being deported from Saudi Arabia, because the theocrats ruling hte joint feared he would be a temptation to the women of the nation or something like that.



Now, I can't speak for any Saudi state clerics, but I look at this guy, and I'm like, you know, nothing wrong with making an exception now and then.

He wouldnt even need to travel, he could just have that falcon bring them over.

Its a good job they have the modesty patrols in Israel to protect their younguns from temptation.

first its a directive, not a law....
The director of Israel’s National Service Administration, Sar-Shalom Jerbi, issued a directive two weeks ago banning any volunteer shifts past 9:00 p.m.: “We reached the decision based on concern for our volunteers, and Minister [Naftali] Bennett gave his blessing.”

The government of Israel - that is, the elected, representative body of the state - "caved to pressure"

so you might want to correct yourself.....
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secondly
its a racist directive, based on religious fundamentalism, which in turn, will be reversed since it has been made public (hint: thats why freedom of the press and free speech is so fundimental to a democracy)......thats how working democracies work.....everyone gets a 'say" and then the democracy with its based foundations kicks in and 'fixes it" until the next time.

So do you think Sar-Shalom Jerbi will be facing some sort of official reprimand here? Exactly how did our good friend Dov Lior manage to bend this particular arm? Aren't there supposed to be like... balances to prevent that sort of thing? I mean of course, nothing is flawless, but this just seems surprisingly blatant and foolish.

Aren't there supposed to be like... balances to prevent that sort of thing? I mean of course, nothing is flawless, but this just seems surprisingly blatant and foolish.

people who believe, as in fundamentalist (look around u at the DU), simply never give up and don't accept the concept of "foolishness" when their following their god...anything goes to get their version of nirvana

democracies work when they are tolerant of the different factions, including those that are fundamentally against its very foundations. Since these fundamentalists are all involved in the country, which is a good thing, sometimes they get a "win" for a temporary period until they're kicked back to the curb again...and they will try again, and again and again...

it hardly proves israel is racist...it just means that in democracies, where everyone gets a say, the fight to retain its democratic values is never ending.

quite the contrary, this is to be expected, everyone gets to be involved and "fight" for their version of a "better society"
the alternative, of alienating certain groups is a much worse and dumber idea.
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if anybody will "pay" for this, your asking...i would assume not, politicians protect their own (and i tend to ignore "whos doing what to whom, since i assume their all lying anyway, so i'm not following who is actually involved) and cant answer your question

We're not really talking about a random chance here. It's not as if the government is a roulette wheel and the fundies' call just happened to come up this time. It was a conscious decision made by someone in the government - specifically Sar-Shalom Jerbi, but I would wager he answers to someone else and had to get their approval on this as well (I could be wrong on that one, bureaucrtic ladders aren't really my strong point )

So my question is how, specifically, does this happen. Look, as weird as America is about race, I can't imagine a member of the US government, in any capacity, issuing a "directive" forbidding white women from working late shifts specifically to keep them away from contact with hispanic men. That's over in twilight zone stuff, things that would make crazy-ass Louie Gohmert stop, blink, and say "wait, what?"

Well, maybe not Gohmert... point is, it's pretty much unimaginable in the United States. And I'm sure it's really not for lack of effort on the part of interested groups, either.

So what is it that led to this situation popping up? if it's not random chance - and it plainly isn't, then how? You thump on about Democracy, okay, so this guy was elected, or at least appointed by someone who is (again - bureaucracy, not my strongest point!) Did he campaign on this? was this an out-of-nowhere thing? What's up?

You say that this doesn't prove Israel is racist... well, it doesn't need to, thing is, pretty much all human societies are racist, and one with as much ethnic conflict as Israel surely isn't among those rare exceptions. A better question would be to ask, is this an expression of racism in Israeli society? To some degree yes - the people behind it are clearly part of Israeli society. Does it speak for Israelis as a whole? Nah, it's one politician, possibly more, and a group of dudes whose beards are taking over their brains. Hardly a representative sample.

Now, if this isn't struck down, by whatever methods there are for doing so... That might say something loudly in that regard. I share your certainty that it will be, but hey, the crazies won this thumb-wrestle, maybe they'll win another.

But again, I'm mostly a little dumbstruck because... well, does being dumbstruck need an explanation here? That fundy whackos could get something like this through boggles me.

Last edited Sun Oct 20, 2013, 03:53 PM - Edit history (4)

So my question is how, specifically, does this happen. Look, as weird as America is about race, I can't imagine a member of the US government, in any capacity, issuing a "directive" forbidding white women from working late shifts specifically to keep them away from contact with hispanic men. That's over in twilight zone stuff, things that would make crazy-ass Louie Gohmert stop, blink, and say "wait, what?"

the US govt shut down the memorials (tried)....thats beyond the "twilight zone" here...totally incomprehensible,

we've got our fundamentalists involved in the govt, the US doesn't (at least not in a religious sense) in decision making positions and their beliefs about separation of the genders is a major part of their belief system, hence not only is it always "popping up...it actually never goes away:

you've got gender separation attempts on busses, on side walks, in the army (hearing women sing) why not "late night shifts".....the list is endless. These are people in decision-making positions, and they make decisions they like. When the press gets wind of it and it goes public, they pull back until another chance opens up to make different decisions that agrees with their religious point of view.

they also have their moral squads that roam the neighborhood kicking out any male that might be visiting a single female at an hour that is considered "too late" (i infact was a victim of such an intrusion, on leave from the army many many years ago-i did consider shooting them for a few micro seconds...hence i have my own personal peeve against them)

It will get struck down, as that is too far, but they definitely have their "wins"...one of the few places where the religious muslim, Christians and jews all agree, and they will never stop trying- god says so (all of them).

and they're politically involved, in the big picture they're losing, Israel is far more secular and liberal than in the past, but they're not going away and god keeps telling them to keep on trying....and so they will

.....even though most Israelis are pretty decent folks. Reminds me of all the racists we have in *this* country.......

The Knesset is the author of the new law.

that it was a directive (not a law) issued by "The director of Israel’s National Service Administration" (not the Knesset).

I shouldn't let my typing fingers do my thinking.

and religious than Likud tends to more secular albeit Rightwing too

In fact, I'm pretty sure I've explained it to you before. Can you remember what the reason was? Little test of your memory, let's see what might have sunk in. Even if you don't agree, do you remember?

It's not that they do it.

It's that they're far worse and you guys support that.

Hence, the hypocrisy.

Simple, right?

I mean since your entire argument hinges on it. Show me where I, or Azurnoir, or Delrem, or whoever, roll out our support and endorsement of the dysfunctions in Palestinian society. Please.

Your commenter is wrong, plain and simple. First, there is no claim that Israel is a "uniquely" racist country, just that it is a country with racist policies. Second, there's the lie that this directive focuses on men in general - it doesn't, it specifies Arab men, and is being promoted by anti-Arab and anti-miscegenation groups and individuals. The third lie is that there is some sort of support for the Palestinian equivalent of this shit, morality patrols and other anti-woman measures. There's not, you're simply not going to find anyone arguing that the chauvinist demands to keep women "pure" are any better from Palestinians than from Israelis.

The hypocrite here is the schmuck who is defending this directive, while claiming that it's we who think Palestinians can do no wrong. That's not the case at all, those of us who are pro-Palestinian recognize the dysfunctions in Palestinian society. He is running out proclaiming that everything is fine, that Israel is the shining city on the hill, how dare we talk about it as if it were not the paragon among nations he believes it is. And that's the problem. You see, Palestine has no one doing this. There are no brainless fucks squawking about how Palestine is perfect, a light to other nations, uniquely progressive, admirable on all ways. There is no cottage industry of exploiting gays and women - while ignoring the strictures and bigotry against both - to make Palestine look good, as people like you and David do on Israel's behalf. So long as people like you are goose-stepping around demanding all others in the world recognize the perfection of Israel, people are going to counter your bullshit by pointing out that Israel is in fact very far from the pinnacle of human achievement you guys claim.

...within Palestinian society. You guys constantly argue that criticism against Palestinians is racist.

Here's an example from just last week about Fatah/Hamas exploiting Palestinian children, encouraging little kids to become martyrs, suicide bombers, etc...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=48650

It doesn't get much worse than that, but check out all the deflection, denial, and justification on that thread.

I see that as tacit support. How else am I to understand it?



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At least in Israel there's a free & open society where criticism is encouraged. All one has to do is read their papers.

That doesn't exist within Palestine, making criticism of Hamas/Fatah crucial.

After all, the source is 100% unverifiable anecdotes of one person who admits strong biases against the subjects of her book. Further, as I point out there, it's written in a "field" that is about as scientifically rigorous as UFOlogy or perpetual motion. These are relevant problems with the claims presented.

It's sort of like your fawning over Caroline Glick - "It says what I want to hear so it must be true!"

...showing how Fatah and Arafat exploit children, encouraging kids to become martyrs and suicide bombers, etc.

You'll notice at least 3 of your colleagues here were either deflecting, denying, or justifying it.