Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumHaaretz's Amira Hass: Hamas has a right to dig tunnels
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.552745
Hass isn't even trying anymore to hide her animosity towards Israel's civilians or her support for Hamas' grotesque terror operations vs. innocents. She wrote just a few months back that Palestinians have a birthright and duty to throw rocks at civilians that cause suffering and deaths. That said, why not support terror operations against the likes of Amira Hass and her likeminded friends?
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dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)When you wrote "civilians" were you referring to settlers ?
shira
(30,109 posts)As for Hamas' recent tunnel that was just blown up by the IDF, which Hass is referring to, it was a massive dig that went from Gaza some 300 meters into Israel. So it's not as though Hamas and co. restrict their attacks to just civilians over the green line. Look at their charter sometime soon. They're genocidal, religious fundamentalist psychopaths.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)you did mean settlers but you said civilians to attract sympathy Did they tunnel into Israels defined border ?
shira
(30,109 posts)...not subhuman settlers deserving of death.
At least we know where u stand now.
And for those lurking, it's shit like this that exposes the entire pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel movement for the vile, disgusting & pathetic movement that it is. The vast majority of anti-zionist, anti-Israel advocates are of like mind. This is the Palestinian 'cause'. If I had to guess, I'd say it's easily more than 9 out of every 10 who feel the same way and fight the same 'cause'.
There won't be any push-back against Hass or anyone else like her (Richard Falk, Ben White, Ali Abunimah, Norm Finkelstein, George Galloway, etc.). All are terror supporters. Every major (and minor) anti-zionist organization like the ISM, FreeGaza, Mondoweiss, ElectronicIntifada, and PSC are the same way and support this shit.
I challenge the so-called pro-Palestinian "humanitarians" who post here to come out and condemn this crap.
Give me some fucking hope.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira: And for those lurking, it's shit like this that exposes the entire pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel movement for the vile, disgusting & pathetic movement that it is. The vast majority of anti-zionist, anti-Israel advocates are of like mind. If I had to guess, I'd say it's easily more than 9 out of every 10 who feel the same way.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)You do seem to have a problem with consistency.
Can Iran or Hezbollah fly drones over Israel? And if not, why should Israel be allowed to fly drones over Lebanon?
Is Hezbollah allowed to dig tunnels, even within its own territory? Would Israel likewise be precluded from digging tunnels into the territory of its neighbours?
If Israel is allowed to drop cluster munitions in Beirut, does that mean that Hezbollah is allowed to drop cluster munitions?
Etc.
shira
(30,109 posts)...you'd have a point. As it is, stats prove they're the most careful military in the world when it comes to protecting civilians & minimizing casualties.
Israel's enemies, OTOH, all look to maximize civilian casualties.
You're comparing apples to horse shit.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)in the last 72 hours of the July War, didnt kill any Hezbollah. Not one, except for one Hezbollah member who was killed a month later whilst clearing unexploded submunitions. On the other hand, the unexploded bomblets killed about 30 civilians in the year following the war, mainly youths and children.
From HRW:-
In the first two weeks of the conflict, Israel launched a relatively small number of
cluster munition strikes. Attacks increased in the days after the 48-hour partial
suspension of air strikes from July 31 to August 1, 2006; Israeli soldiers serving with
an MLRS unit told Human Rights Watch that it was in August that they fired many of
their cluster rockets.
The overwhelming use of cluster munitions took place during the final 72 hours of
the conflict, when Israel engaged in saturation cluster bombing, hitting more than
850 strike sites with millions of submunitions. According to the United Nations, 90
percent of Israel’s cluster munition strikes took place over this brief period. A
commander of an IDF MRLS unit told a Ha’aretz reporter, “What we did was insane
and monstrous; we covered entire towns in cluster bombs.” He said that, in order to
compensate for the cluster rockets’ imprecision, his unit was ordered to “flood” the
area with them.
These strikes occurred after the UN Security Council had adopted Resolution 1701 on
August 11 calling for an immediate ceasefire, but before the Lebanese and Israeli
cabinets met individually to set the time for the formal ceasefire to take effect on
August 14. At that time, Israel knew a settlement was likely to be imminent. At this
late stage of the war, the majority of civilians had fled the area, but the imminent
settlement would clearly lead civilians to return to their homes, many now either
directly contaminated by duds or surrounded by contaminated land. It is inconceivable
that Israel, which has used cluster weapons on many previous occasions, did not
know that that its strikes would have a lasting humanitarian impact.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)snip* A commander of an IDF MRLS unit told a Ha’aretz reporter, “What we did was insane and monstrous; we covered entire towns in cluster bombs.” He said that, in order to compensate for the cluster rockets’ imprecision, his unit was ordered to “flood” the area with them.
snip* It is inconceivable that Israel, which has used cluster weapons on many previous occasions, did not know that that its strikes would have a lasting humanitarian impact.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)calling her anti Israel is sort of folks who didn't feel war was the thing to do after 9/11 were called anti-America
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)right kind of child of Holocaust survivors. She is disobedient to the state...
can't have that.
King_David
(14,851 posts)She is anything but a reliable reporter .
"Hass, for example, reported in June, 2001 that Palestinian eyewitnesses saw Hebron’s Jewish community celebrating the shooting of a Palestinian by Israeli border police. She described the Jewish residents spitting on, stomping and kicking the Palestinian’s corpse and then shouting with joy and passing out candies. Televised accounts of the incident, however, proved Hass’s story was entirely bogus. A Jerusalem court found Hass guilty of lying with the malicious intent of damaging the Hebron community’s reputation and fined her more than $60,000."
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=6&x_article=439
A huge chunk of Israeli population are children of Holocaust Survivors... One of the main reasons for Israel's being.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)strangely though she remained employed by them, it should also be noted that this 'landmark' decision came about at the height of the Second Intifada, it would also seem that the Judge disregarded Hass's testimony perhaps because it came from Palestinians, simply btaking the word of the settlers over those of Palestinians
This page was last modified on 27 July 2013 at 02:15.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amira_Hass
King_David
(14,851 posts)Amira Hass was caught LYING... She is a liar and totally discredited journalist . She is unfit to write a supermarket flyer let alone fabricated articles.
Amira Hass was caught lying and found guilty and fined.... That's who this lying "Journalist" is.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but I'm sure those nice Hebron settlers would never ever do what was described
King_David
(14,851 posts)Amira Hass lied , and that's wrong , if it's about settlers or Al Quada or Hamas if a journalist lies they are a liar and don't deserve any respect or credibility.
Amira Hass is a liar ..
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)and probably eats cheese too.
shira
(30,109 posts)You guys never acknowledge facts when they're inconvenient to you.
Ever.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I guess you like the judge discount them out of hand
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)or do you have yet another rightwing video your wishing to post?
but I will note how easily you dismiss Arabs or is it Muslims as liars
shira
(30,109 posts)
delrem
(9,688 posts)"The people are suffering daily from the settlers' presence in the city.
We are not against the Jewish presence but we are against the radical and
fanatic settlers who are declaring Hebron to be an Israeli city."
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)they are a discredited hasbarado outfit that has been caught out fabricating quotes before. They did so in the case of an alleged quote by Hassan Nasrallah, for which the Canadian govt could find no evidence:-
http://www.cbc.ca/story/news/national/2002/12/12/hezbollah_rxn021212.html
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The majority of their quotes have been accurate, with a few errors over the years (like the one you cited).
Though it would be great if there more Arabic media were translated into English by folks who have less an agenda in doing so.
Unfortunately, there seems to be a decided lack of enthusiasm for such an endeavor for some reason.
King_David
(14,851 posts)She has been found guilty of lying this discredited "journalist " called Amira Hass.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)She claimed that the body of a Palestinian militant killed in Hebron was kicked by settlers.
Now, frankly, the settlers have done far worse than that, but that is besides the point. Apparently the decision was made by a magistrate by default after Haaretz failed to file a defence in time.
Frankly, it is unusual for a group of residents to be able to sue for defamation. It is typically only available to individuals or distinct entities rather than potentially nebulous "groups" of people.
A rather strange decision all round. Haaretz said it would appeal, I cant find any record of what happened thereafter.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Their was NO appeal because they knew she lied, She is a totally discredited 'journalist' found guilty of LYING and fined.
She is a LIAR.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)if it sprouted out of your arse and grew spangly yellow flowers. Can you back up anything you just said?
King_David
(14,851 posts)She was found to be a liar and fined $60k .. She has no credibility ... She is a "journalist "caught lying.. What's to backup ?
shira
(30,109 posts)But they're still significantly more reliable and trustworthy than the sources you quote here.
delrem
(9,688 posts)and can't be accorded respect at anytime. Especially in these instances, where she's talking about cluster bombs.
This is in spite of the fact that her claims are correct.
Hasbara doesn't impress me. It's like hasbara only employs rejects. Oh well.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Thanks for the contribution .
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It's like magic.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Meanwhile it's just an ordinary Hebrew word...
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Typical hasbara hasbara!
King_David
(14,851 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)Hasbara ignores the fact that that the Israeli court is a kangaroo court w.r.t. to matters like "defaming a Jewish settler community". As explained upthread, the Israeli kangaroo court didn't allow any credence to the (not-Jewish) Palestinian account.
What you're doing in this exchange with oberliner, King_David, isn't "debate". Nor is it "stuff for the lounge", however much you have "the lounge" in your mind. The two of you are just doing a high-five over what you think is success on a "totally defame the messenger" campaign. IMO hasbara's criterion for "success" is far too low.
King_David
(14,851 posts)
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)i haven't read any of her stuff but hamas is`t looking for a peaceful democratic state.
paywalls suck
King_David
(14,851 posts)And Israel has a duty to protect its citizens against the terrorists within and do whatever it takes to destroy the tunnels and terrorists.
aranthus
(3,385 posts)Isn't Hamas the de facto government of Gaza? As a government don't they have the sovereign right to do what they want, just as Israel has the sovereign right to stop them?
delrem
(9,688 posts)It's cool that as Dave says, "Israel has a duty to protect its citizens against the terrorists within and do whatever it takes to destroy the tunnels and terrorists."
Dave is a fan of Israel's military might. He imbibes it. He posts pictures of it. What Dave needs are "terrorists" to destroy and he finds them within and without his paranoid bubble.
shira
(30,109 posts)Apparently, there are "progressives" here who don't believe Israel has any right to thwart Hamas from killing innocents.
No zionists are innocent to some "progressives".
King_David
(14,851 posts)But turns out your reading every single word in every single post of mine ..
Kol Hakavod. Lol
delrem
(9,688 posts)shira is just being totally shrill and senseless, as we've come to know.
shira
(30,109 posts)Just as you acknowledge you're for Hamas and the PA encouraging little kids to become sacrificial martyrs and suicide bombers for the cause you support...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113440238#post7
Amira Hass also wrote recently it is the birthright and duty of Palestinians to throw stones, presumably at baby girls like this...
Clarity.
I appreciate the honesty.
King_David
(14,851 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)perhaps because it doesn't fit the narrative that's being foisted on us?
Last Thursday, when the discovery of the tunnel running under the Gaza border toward Kibbutz Ein Hashlosha was revealed, the spokesman for Iz al-Din al-Qassam, Hamas’ military wing, boasted that “the resistance” could dig a thousand tunnels. The website Falastin, which published the boast, also reported that 56 percent of Israelis are thinking about leaving the country. With Hamas, a demonstration of power betrays its vulnerability. You’ve got it good with us, the Islamic movement warns the 1.6 million prisoners in Israel’s most sophisticated detention facility (see: pseudo-state), so don’t complain. What the Palestinian website doesn’t tell you is the high ratio of Gaza teens who want to emigrate.
now note that these "terror tunnels" are equipped with electricity and phone lines, sounds rather long term IMO perhaps more like smuggling tunnels, but that doesn't fit the narrative either
King_David
(14,851 posts)That expert opinion? Your also an expert on tunnels as well as other things?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)But about those tunnels -didn't Israel cut off building materials from Gaza claiming they were used to build these tunnelswhile at the same time claiming that the tunnels had been under construction for 2 or more years and then it came out that Israel had only been allowing building materials into Gaza for less than 1 year?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)clearly you have little understanding on how it works...ready for a lesson?
tunnels that bring in food, building materials, gas, cars etc need trucks to bring the supplies to the openings which are usually hidden in houses whos in habitants are working with the Palestenians....Their trucks have to park outside the homes and then the materials are brought in..its a rather slow process that is quite visable to the neighborhood
since on the north and west are only israeli (jewish) homes within kibbutzim and small towns that have been the recipients of rockets, mortars, anti tank missiles and machine gun fire for gaza, its pretty funny to believe that the jewish inhabitants are helping the Palestenians in their smuggling attempts and the neighbors know nothing about it.
but i guess you want to believe that......
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)seems a bit sophisticated for just a quickie terror attack, but whatever makes you comfortable
pelsar
(12,283 posts)its called a "quality attack" when they kidnap a soldier......and its an intricate process if they want him alive from the planning, to the actual attack and then when they bring him in to the tunnel
since you like the idea that obviously the israelis are helping the Palestenians with the smuggling, please explain how it works
this should require a lot of imagination and fantasy....but i'm game.
you know, who is helping, how it works, how the tunnels remain hidden once in operation.....
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)still your so called lesson does not explain the phone lines and electricity but that's okay I understand
pelsar
(12,283 posts)phone lines...
communication, since israel is constantly looking for the tunnels there has to be a way to communicate with the diggers, when to stop, when to start, when to get the hell out if discovered
any kind of wireless would obviously and i do mean obviously would be incredibly stupid....i assume that you do understand
electricity? they need fans (very hot down there), lighting (its dark)
this stuff is not rocket science, but one does need a basic grasp of the environment.....
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and is installing phone really the most expedient way to track Israeli movement? There are several less labor and time intensive ways I can think of here
also we have a 3rd hand claim the IJ or someone claimed that the purpose of the tunnel was to kidnap IDF (a popular claim since 2006) because it was the best way to deal with Israel, but on that first I can almost hear the howls of how many prisoners were released to get Gilad Schalit back, but never a mention that it took more than 6 years to do that and that Schalit was said to be at fault for his own kidnapping after all was said and done, once again expediency doesn't seem to be met with here
and remember it took we're told 2+ years to build these tunnels
pelsar
(12,283 posts)that tunnels that extend in to israel are for commercial smuggling?
do you seriously believe that?
and if you believe this...on what basis, what is your information (a link would be nice)
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)there have been no 3rd 2nd or even 1st reports released in English save the one posted here, so run with it 'cause it fits the scenario but myself I'll reserve judgement on reason the reasons in fact I have already posted most of which can be filed under expediency,unless you think that Hamas is engaging in some really, really long range plans-lets see 2 years at least working on a sophisticated tunnel all to make what they almost have to know would be a one shot strike to get some prisoners released in 5-10 years or so
vs
the tunnels were built for smuggling that could in could drugs, consumer goods, and weapons I hear Israel manufacturers some excellent ones all of which make a handy profit
pelsar
(12,283 posts)deep tunnels are used as bomb shelters.....
and you underestimate the value of a captured soldier in israel
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)we just had an example a live performance if you will, it took 6 years for Shalit to be released and did not stop 3 major military campaigns by Israel-none of which seemed to make Shalit the priority
There is a reason that most countries do not consider police or soldiers valuable hostages
pelsar
(12,283 posts)within those campaigns were attempts to find him as well....(a high priority)
There is a reason that most countries do not consider police or soldiers valuable hostages
cleary we have a different value system......we dont leave nor forget our kids/father/husbands whom are soldiers....and even trade for their bodies, if need be
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)that shows just how much soldiers lives are valued
pelsar
(12,283 posts)was gilad not part of the countries conscience...as was Ron Arad.
clearly you have no appreciation of whats its like to "give the country" your son / daughter...we expect our country to do the best they can and and when things go bad, to do what they can....for the most part the country does.
Ron never made it back home, Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev bodies were traded for....with the search continuing for lost israeli pilots in egypt
or the 31 year search for the lost dakar
-------------------
as israeli likes pointing out...your culture is not ours.
Response to pelsar (Reply #136)
shaayecanaan This message was self-deleted by its author.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Now I've seen it all.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)And they are gaining support in the international community while Israel is losing support.
Constantly pointing fingers at others and calling them terrorist while terrorizing everyone you can isn't working anymore. We have tunnels in this country too. Not for terrorism, built for transporting people and cargo (drugs) underground to avoid detection, from Mexico to the US.
People need to be able to import and export what they need, not what Israel allows them to have.
Why would you say that? Disgusting Shira, advocating terrorism against Amira Hass and her friends!!!!! You support terrorism against civilians?!?!?! You have officially showed your true colors.
Ms.Hass advocated throwing rocks, you support terror operations against her and her friends. Disgusting!!!!!!
oberliner
(58,724 posts)“This tunnel was made by the hand of the fighters of (Izzadine) al-Qassam and they will not sleep in their efforts to hit the occupation and kidnap soldiers,” the group's spokesman Abu Obeida told Hamas's al-Aqsa radio, according to Agence France-Presse.
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2013/10/21/Hamas-says-dug-tunnel-into-Israel.html
Do you support those efforts?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Soldiers are fair game in an occupation.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Not sure if you knew that.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Or, end the occupation and try to make friends of your neighbors and the tunnels won't be necessary. People will find ways to move about and import items that they need or want. Sometimes even items to help fight soldiers who are occupying them. You can't force people to submit.
King_David
(14,851 posts)That's my first choice.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That's how these things work. They will never submit.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)they are not occupied.....they are under an egyptian/israeli blockade as a result of their constant attacks against both countries...
so what exactly are they "not submitting to"
and please before you answer educate yourself on the history and events since the israeli pullout, rather than me having to educate you...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That's what they will not submit to. Being blocked in. Israel wouldn't submit to anyone telling them what they can and cannot do, so why not Gaza? Israel doesn't own Gaza right?
As for the occupation, I was speaking of Palestine as a whole. Until everyone is free, no one is free.
Like with slavery. You can't be free while your brothers are in bondage right?
I love your patronizing tone! You seem to be of the belief that everyone is as stupid as... And that you are so superior. A regular internet warrior you are.
I will not submit to you educating me, because you are intellectually dishonest at times, and you are so chock full of talking points and propaganda that I'm not quite sure you're human at times.
Would Israel submit to their neighbors? If no, then why should neighbors submit to Israel?
The world is watching and we don't like what we see or hear.
And learn how to capitalize before you start talking about educating anyone. Please.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Especially if what they want is more murder kidnap terror and general barbaric behavior , so they better learn to "submit" else the seige will never end and conditions in Gaza will never improve...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Y'all can't keep this up forever, your majesty.
" they better learn to submit" To whom should they submit, your grace? To their betters?
That's part of your problem right there.
You find them barbaric, they find you to be barbaric.
You think they are terrorists, they think you are terrorists.
Unless you're willing to treat those other humans as your equals there will never be peace for you.
And they will do what they want. They have been doing it obviously.
You may catch some people but you won't catch most.
And since they are the underdogs, they get much sympathy.
They will build tunnels. You can't stop them. Your rage is impotent.
King_David
(14,851 posts)This tunnels toast, history , gone ...
Gaza's people would of been much better
off if Hamas had built an apartment building or a medical clinic or a planetarium or a shopping mall or a museum or a casino or a discotheque or a strip club or a bar or a gay bathouse .
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That's all I'm saying. We blow up tunnels from Mexico all the time. They build more. Our efforts are futile. So are yours.
King_David
(14,851 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Last edited Fri Oct 25, 2013, 12:32 AM - Edit history (1)
They're secret.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)dont confuse stuipidity with ignorence...
this however is an example of stupidity
I will not submit to you educating me,......
whether you agree or disagree with my viewpoint, i still have more knowledge than you of the area, of the events, so having a view point that declares i refuse to learn more becuase i dont like the source, is hardly an intelligent point of view.
and this is a ridiculous statement....one of those "first year at college" things that naive kids learn
Until everyone is free, no one is free.
Like with slavery. You can't be free while your brothers are in bondage right?
people in sudan, in saudi arabia, in nigeria, in russia in the US are not free...so I assume you too are not free? So please tell me how their lack of freedom actually affects yours (outside of "feeling bad"
_____
more to the point, the gazans have options, one of them, and its their choice was to live in peace with both of their neighbors and start a process of trust, that would extend to the westbank as well....
attempting to kill israelis (civilians being the most targeted) as well as Egyptians (indirectly) and with their continued attempts was and is poor choice. As a result the egyptians have closed down their side of the border and its tunnels and israel has additional restrictions on imports.
they chose options with consequences....its called real life. If and when they decide to choose other options their lives will improve, as a result so to will their "brothers."
a history lesson (you can close your eyes now, i'm sure you dont want to know this): israel was under a 3/4 blockade since its birth, but learned to play nicely with its neighbors and slowly got it removed.....despite constant attacks from those very neighbors.
israel did not try to kill the citizens of the neighboring countries because they refused to trade with israel or agree to israelis entering in their countries....
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I never said I refuse to learn. I just won't take your word for it. I don't care what you think is an intelligent point of view.
My brothers in bondage would reference other African Americans living in slavery in the United States before the emancipation. Those that were free helped rescue those still held in bondage, risking their lives for freedom. Slavery is no longer legal in the US, therefore my brothers and sisters are no longer in bondage as I was speaking from a strictly historical perspective. I was not referencing those residing outside the United States and it's territories. But you knew that, didn't you?
Back to current affairs. If you are so much in control, why worry about tunnels that they can't do anything with?
Because I'm not seeing where they have used these tunnels to commit acts of terrorism or murder of civilians. I asked Shira and she says she can't find anything, so maybe it doesn't exist.
The rest of what you said was just warmongering.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)are just limited to the national borders of the US and you dont consider other slaves to be your "brothers and sister" because they live in different countries? pretty nationalistic of you. (isnt nationalism a right wing value?)
stupidity in my mind is refusing to accept information and knowledge because you dont like the source. To further the point, its requires quite an imagination (or lack of experience in life) to believe that someone who has never been to a certain area would know more than those who actually live there.. (as in your belief that tunnels in to israel are for toothpaste)
two examples of how tunnels are used
2008 two israelis civilians at a fuel depot attacked byPalestenians that used tunnels to get close
2003 3 israeli soldiers and one civilian killed in erez (n. gaza), where the Palestenians used a tunnel to approach them on a foggy morning.
more 'everyday" are the bombs planted on the border fence, that use tunnels to get close, but i understand from your point of view that killing soldiers is perfectly ok.
i have no idea what "warmongering is" ...
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Warmonger is a pejorative term that is used to describe someone who is eager to encourage people or a nation to go to war.
Surprised you have no idea what that is.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i really hate the use of loaded expressions. its a way of cutting off a discussion, of dismissing the parts one doesn't like.
King_David
(14,851 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I think that's the formulation.
shira
(30,109 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)You know exactly what warmongering is. I mean I do and I'm stupid right. So you must know being so much superior in intellect than me.
I never said the tunnels were for toothpaste. I asked if they would be able to get toothpaste through.
Or a box of paperclips, or medicine, or people, and you said no.
Now you say yes.
You gave two completely different answers to the question I asked which is why i don't understand what your saying.
You make strange accusations.
Have no idea what the heck you're talking about.
Yes I do believe soldiers are fair game in a siege/occupation situation. Just as members of Hamas are fair game. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
You were the one who said that they couldn't get anything through because they have no one on the other side to assist or support them. Why did you say that if that's not the truth?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)wow...you are one cold blooded, callus person.
i assume you dont know that just because someone is a member of hamas that it doesnt mean they are some kind of war mongering fanatic that wants to kill all jews or israelis?
it could be that they simply want a job in the govt and have to be a member to retain their job.
according to you that means they are 'fair game' to be killed...the only way i can describe that is simply one "cold-blooded", person.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I am cruel. Soldiers and freedom fighters will fight each other I and I wiil not take a side unless it involves my country.
I don't want them wiping you off the face if the earth and I don't want you wiping them off the face of the earth.
But yes. If you guys want to throw rocks at each other. Enjoy! You are all grown.
I'd prefer if you'd just make peace with each other, but that's out of the question right?
Why don't you want peace if you love your country?
I am so happy that we are leaving the Middle East and finished with these ill advised wars. I would protest in the streets if we decided to go back and fight a war for any reason. I have friends serving right now and I want them home and to go snowboarding again like when we were younger. I want to see their faces again. I want them alive. And I don't want them to have to go back over there to help you guys fight off whomever.
Yes I am cold blooded. I don't want my friends to be in danger fighting for your government. You all need to get it together, cause Uncle Sam is not going to be there. Over a decade of war and nothing to show for it, except dead people. Dead people.
Now you have your leader pushing for us to bomb Iran for him? No. We will not.
That's why I say go ahead and throw rocks at each other. When you all grow up, we will help you make a peace deal, but we won't fight Iran for you.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)but i do believe you have confused the iraqi war with this conflict.
The US has not fought any wars for israel, and if they decided to bomb iran, the US will do so because they themselves dont want to a nuclear iran....
countries act in their own self interest...its pretty much the standard of international politics, they never go against it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But your Netanyahu is beating the drums of war and is pressuring us to strike Iran. He went to the UN and drew a picture of a bomb with a red line on it so that we would know his dangerous they are to Israel. He wants somebody to bomb them and since we have the biggest military I'm guessing that he wants us to do it. Otherwise he'd have to go it alone. Well, it's otherwise and we don't want to come over there.
The US is not bombing Iran. Period. It is not not in our self interest. We don't care if Iran uses nuclear power, we use it too.
There is no proof that Iran has or intends to obtain nuclear weapons.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)some people in your govt obviously are considering the idea, Probably because they have oil interests in the mid east and dont want to see the Lybian fiasco be repeated or lose Saudi Arabia to Iran (learn about Iran and Saudi Arabia and other oil producing nations in the mideast...you might note that israel is not involved).
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Netanyahu is involved and he represents Israel. He is the main one pushing for war with Iran.
Pretending and deflecting won't work this time.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What about the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Got let out in exchange for a but load of prisoners. What about him?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What does that mean?
He was abducted inside Israel by Hamas militants via underground tunnels.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Soldiers should be prepared for skirmishes. IDF goes into whatever area they want and 'arrest' people. The people who have been arrested probably consider themselves to be abducted or taken by force. Have the IDF never taken a Hamas member by force brought him to israeli territory and imprisoned him?
Why would you not expect them to try to do the same to you?? I don't understand why there should be two sets of rules; one set of rules for them and one set for you. Separate but unequal?
Didn't this soldier say he was treated reasonably well and they knew he was frail and very valuable to them for prisoner exchange?
Most times during siege, war, occupation, or battles soldiers die and some are taken prisoner. It's part of the ugly reality of war.
Being a soldier he should have prepared himself, but he says he fell asleep a was wakened by the skirmish. He was not prepared and dud not have his vest or flack jacket on which was fortunate for him.
He says he left his weapon when he exited and could have taken them out if only he'd had his rifle, correct?
He then surrendered. Said don't shoot, don't shoot!
They captured him and took him away.
He seem to feel like he got himself caught and did nothing to save himself from capture. So yes, I think he got himself caught by not being awake, aware, and prepared.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Not that your attempts are good tho
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 27, 2013, 08:02 AM - Edit history (1)
He said it was his fault and he didn't try to fight back. Never fired a shot even though he was inside of a tank. Nothing wrong with being a pacifist, but maybe he should not have been required to do military service. He doesn't seem to have wanted to be a soldier.
On edit: Btw. You were the one who said he got himself caught.http://www.democraticunderground.com/113438308
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Gilad Shalit Could Have Avoided Capture by Hamas Attackers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113438308
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You mean to tell me that I got that ideas from him? I knew I'd read it before this morning, and I knew it was on here.
Thank you.
King_David
(14,851 posts)This one is .. Toothpaste , used for smuggling , and lots of other comedy in this thread.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 27, 2013, 08:04 AM - Edit history (1)
And you know it. You're LOLing on a regular basis over here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113438308
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it's okay I do not expect understanding
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)60. Or smash ,destroy,pulverize and eliminate the tunnells and all within them ?
View profile
That's my first choice.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=49546
interesting comment indeed
King_David
(14,851 posts)But if they in the tunnel to do what they gonna do , for the reasons the tunnel was built , Israel must follow Obama a lead and do to Hamas what was done to Bin Laden .. Same thing .
shira
(30,109 posts)...for the crime of being Jewish. It's in their vile charter. You should look it up sometime.
They don't have a right to do that & anyone supporting them is in effect supporting their antisemitic attacks.
As to Amira Hass (from the OP) she also believes Palestinians also have some birthright to throw stones at civilians, including this baby girl...
http://thetruthaboutrockthrowing.wordpress.com/the-victims/adele-biton/
Pretty sick, huh?
It's amazing there are numbers of liberals/progressives who support and glorify deliberate attacks against civilians, showing utter disregard to victims they obviously see as subhuman.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And fight the occupation.
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)isn't occupied
Hamas considers all of Israel to be 'occupied'
So even if Israel pulled out of the entire west bank, Hamas would continue its terror activities.
Not to mention the fact that they do not have the right under any international law to tunnel under another country.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Or few according to the Israeli government.
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)have plenty of rights.
Violating another nations rights is not one of them. Israel (along with every other country in the world) has a right do decide who and what is allowed in and out of its country.
I think the people of Gaza have more rights violated by Hamas than they do by Israel.
Imagine how many buildings for housing, roads, etc could have been built with the supplies that went in to building those tunnels in to Israel.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Gotta get what they need somehow. Make it easier for them to have free trade and this should stop being an issue.
Shouldn't they get to decide what goes in and out of their land?
You hate the tunnels? Collapse the tunnels. They will just build more tunnels.
Or you could solve the issues that cause them to need to build the tunnels.
And I don't think the people of Gaza have enough rights. You say they have plenty, I say give them more.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Hamas says they did it to kidnap and terror , do you guys know better than Hamas what the reason is that they built this tunnel huh ?
LOL
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They can use the tunnels to bring things in. It doesn't have to only be used for kidnapping Israeli soldiers. They can do that on the weekends.
Like how I can use my knife to cut my food, but I can also use it to stab an intruder. Multi-use.
Do you ever get tired of your shtick? Or is that just how royalty behaves?
You're all " LOL I'm so incredulous, but amused at the same time. LOL!" " I'm so LOLING at your naïveté, har, har, har"
How about this.....
LOL! Enjoy trying to bomb everybody in the Middle East into submission. LOL! It's not going to work. LOL! You're just breeding more hatred. LOL! The world is looking at you with a critical, more discerning eye, LOL. We don't like what we see, LOL.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Else it would be obvious that the can't be importing anything from Israel to Faza through a tunnel .
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Or toothpaste? Or people? Or medicines? Or electronics?
You know, something not exactly sinister?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)the tunnels do not extend much beyond the borders where there are only army patrols (lots), some jewish settlements and no one on the israeli side that would actually have contact with them, given the potential bad results and the history of the tunnels that enter israel (attacks).
commercial tunnels go to egypt.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If they're as secure as you say, why the outrage? I don't get it.
I thought they were baby killing terror tunnels or some way to get goods in. If they aren't dangerous then they should be able to build them.
shira
(30,109 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I don't remember that.
shira
(30,109 posts)...and they stated that their goal was to kidnap soldiers or civilians.
The former may be alright with you, but the latter is terror.
Again, this should come as no surprise as the Hamas charter calls for much worse against the Jews.
Hamas is not made up of freedom fighters. They're the worst of the worst thugs who not only hate jews but also women, gays, christians, and blacks. They have no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Did it happen or not? All I'm asking.
I mean attacked. When did they attack people with tunnels?
shira
(30,109 posts)The journalist (Amira Hass) who wrote that they have the right to build these tunnels also believes it's okay to throw stones at civilians, including babies.
Do you agree with that?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And use the tunnels to fight the occupation.
Having lost my first child to a genetic disorder at the age of ten months, I am never okay with harming any babies. Don't try that talking point with me, I have actually suffered that loss. It's cruel.
But if grown ups want to throw rocks at each other then who am I to tell them anything.
So yes, if you are fighting a violent occupation of a well armed superior military force and all you have is rocks, you may throw them.
shira
(30,109 posts)...despite whether they're used to kidnap civilians.
Just as you support rock-throwing, even when it results in babies being hit or killed.
That's NOT Hamas fighting occupation. It's punks and thugs who hate women, gays, blacks, and jews terrorizing civilians.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I said nothing of the sort, but of course I can count on you to completely miss the point on purpose so that you can avoid critical thinking and gaining some understanding of humanity.
Where did it say kidnap civilians? Am I missing something or are you prevaricating?
Did I not just say I do not advocate violence against babies? Why are you lying? Trying to make me into a monster? A baby killer supporter? The great other?
Do you even take time to read the responses to you,or do you just have a list of pre made responses? Do you take in what people say to you and think about it for even a second?
1. I do not advocate violence against babies.
2. I do not support kidnapping civilians.
I will never repeat myself to you again.
You do realize it appears as if you are crafting your responses from a script, right?
Israel has its fair share of punks, thugs, male privilege artists, bigots, and islamaphobes, so...
to me it appears most likely that shira is a "false-flagger", something absurdly outrageous designed to make one think less of Israel - if that were Israel's voice.
I refuse to associate shira's posts with Israel. All her talk about "babies", throwing rocks at Jewish babies, Palestinians using their own babies as human shields...
That's too fucking much, bravenak. It can't be real.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I don't believe she speaks for anyone but Shira. She has made herself into a caricature of a right wing Israeli by using talking points, aggressive accusatory questioning tactics and equivocation.
I should not allow her to consume my energy, but I'll just make sure not to attempt a honest discussion anymore. I am a fool.
I once thought she was a computer program.
shira
(30,109 posts)You could have just said your support of the tunnels is based on whether Hamas is transferring humanitarian supplies or using the tunnels solely against Israel's military. You could say you support just that. BUT if they're being used to attack civilians in any way, you're against them - entirely without reservation - no bullshit.
Same with stone throwing. You're for it, but you could have simply said since there are many cases in which Palestinians have maimed or killed innocents with those stones, including baby children, you're totally against.
You can't say it.
So what else am I to conclude?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I just use my own words.
I said if ADULTS want to throw rocks at each other, go ahead.
I said I do NOT advocate violence against babies. My own baby died. Why would I want someone else's baby dead? I told you to stop that, so let me try too now.
I don't have to say what you want me to say the way you want me to say it. I don't owe you that.
Why don't you start by telling us what types of violence against Palestinians you are against?
You never said you are against killing Palestinian babies, so how am I to conclude that you are not supporting killing Arab babies and mothers?
Or do you support the killing of innocent women and children by Israeli soldiers?
Why don't you denounce the siege and occupation of human babies?? Do you want them all to die Shira?
How should I know whether you support the murders of Palestinian civilians, when you never denounce it? Are they less human than you Shira? Have you no compassion for those dead Arab babies??
How come you have never spoke out about and denounced the killing of Palestinian children.
I for one am against the killing of all babies and innocent civilians, what about you Shira? Or do only some babies and some civilians matter?
I really want to know what you think, since you never do come out against the violent murder of Palestinian civilians.
At any time you can just say, Bravenak, I am against the killing of Palestinian babies and mothers, and children and civilians. If you could just say that I could start to believe you really care about dead babies.
shira
(30,109 posts)How about we get more specific. Is this the kind of rock-throwing resistance you support? Yes or No?
I'm assuming you see the above video as legit Palestinian resistance. If I'm wrong, let me know.
I'm against the deliberate targeting, harming, or killing of innocents...whether women, children, elderly, babies, etc.
I fully support Israeli defensive actions against Palestinian terrorists/militants, so long as Israel does its best to protect innocent civilians. Facts prove Israel is more careful WRT civilians than any other nation on the planet so I believe Israel is doing their best to protect innocent people.
I can't say I'm against the siege. I'm for it, as I don't want Hamas arming itself, attacking Israel, and provoking more war...which means more lives lost on both sides. I don't see why anyone rational would support Hamas attacks on anyone, whether civilian or military. That's usually bad news, and mostly for Palestinians when Israel counters Hamas.
Bravenak, I'm against the killing of Palestinian babies and mothers, and children and civilians. But that doesn't mean I oppose Israel's right to self-defense against terrorists. Do you understand?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You just make it seem like the only lives that have any value are Israeli lives.
Stop accusing people of wanting babies murdered with rocks and I won't accuse you of the same.
I believe The government of Israel has over stepped its boundaries with the settlement activity and the constant expansion. Honestly most of the world thinks the settlements are a violation and an incitement to violence.
If someone came to your town where your family had owned property for years and bulldozed it to build Israeli only settlements, would you be happy? Would you not want to protect what you have and keep your home for your family? Would you not want to throw rocks ?
If you were being kept as a prisoner of war, like Shabbat hunter just pointed out that the people of Gaza are, would you not want freedom of travel? Freedom period?
You just need to learn some empathy, and that Those people are just like you. You may even be related. Make a peace agreement now before you lose all international support. Because it's happening right now and you can't even see it.
shira
(30,109 posts)Is that what you support?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)People are throwing rocks idk why or at who or for what reason, so, idk. I have no idea what's happening in that video, that's why I never responded.
shira
(30,109 posts)Either you support Palestinian kids throwing rocks at Israeli cars, which could include anyone from Arab babies to elderly Jews, or you do not.
Here are Palestinian child militants hiding behind the press throwing rocks at the IDF. Do you support the PA and Hamas encouraging children to be militants who then hide behind and amongst the press to fight the IDF?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It may seem like something very significant to you but I have no idea wtf is going on.
I've seen worse than this after Kobe and Shaquille led the Lakers to a championship. I was riding down Crenshaw blaring my horn and screaming out of the window, waving my laker pennant flag thingy, when somebody threw a rock at me. I was as shocked as you please!
I mean really, what had I done to deserve this? You bet your butt I drove away as fast as I could.
Next thing I know gunfire!! Wtf? It was supposed to be fun, but to my surprise it had turned violent.
A woman died that night and a young man went to prison for life. Somebody ( probably the same person who threw a rock at me) had struck her windshield with a rock and she couldn't see to drive away. She was stuck by a stray bullet fired into the air blocks away, and her baby was in the back seat.
You have no idea what I'm talking about right? That's the same way I feel about video with narration that is not in English, completely confused.Me and you are just talking right past each other.
shira
(30,109 posts)...in those videos is Palestinian kids throwing rocks at civilian vehicles on a civilian road and also Palestinian kids hiding amongst the press throwing rocks at the IDF, is that the kind of resistance you support?
You don't have to believe that's what's going on, but try to assume it is for the sake of argument.
Do you support that kind of Palestinian resistance?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Like-
Why are they throwing rocks?
Where is this scene located?
Is this in Palestine? Is is a segregated area? Is this one of those Israeli only roads or something?
Why are those people driving through there when there is an obvious disruption?
Who are those kids?
Why are they angry?
Did they get bombed or assaulted by soldiers recently?
Did those people just harm them and are trying to make a clean getaway?
If I could understand the narration on either if the videos I'd be able to give you a more informed answer.
I try to get a look at a situation and make a case by case judgement.
Those people could gave just had a great tragedy occur and I just don't know what's going on there.
There is a lot of info missing.
shira
(30,109 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)It's seems that the rock was thrown at another vehicle and the driver braked and the person behind him did not brake and crashed into the back of his vehicle, causing injuries to the occupants including the infant.
This is why we need to practice defensive driving. I live in a place that has ice on the road for half of the year, and we know to leave a large space in front if your vehicle in case you have to break rapidly. In my town the person would have also been ticketed for tailgating.
This is the West Bank in Palestine right? Why are they settling there if there are going to be tensions? Why are they inciting this violence by building settlements in the West Bank? Are they trying to cause a war by making settlements right smack dab in the middle of Palestine? Did you think they'd send out the welcome wagon with pies and cakes? Your all like " ha ha, I'm going to build a town on your land that you can't live in, it's not for your kind!!"; and then you wonder why they are not pleased to welcome you for a long stay.
I don't think Canada would be too pleased if America just started 'settling' there and making American only towns, with garrisons of soldiers to stop them from coming in. They'd be pissed and rightly kick our asses out. Don't understand why you don't get that.
shira
(30,109 posts)As though Jews don't belong in East Jerusalem and they shouldn't raise babies or bring their grandmothers there. Jews in East Jerusalem are a legit target in your view.
It seems like you're saying that, as I don't see anything from you that shows disagreement or disgust, in any way, at these incidents.
This is why I can only conclude that you support such attacks.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Do you support me coming into your home and taking it over and telling you that you can live in the yard?
If I did move you into your yard would you fight me?
Where do you live? I'm looking for a new place to live. Do you have a bathroom in the bedroom, cause I like my own bathroom. I hope you have closet space, I have a lot of shoes.
How big is your yard? I can't have you living too close to the house, it would be unseemly if the neighbors saw you just hanging out there. Do you have Native American blood? Cause if you don't I don't know if I can let you stay in the yard, i mean, it's sort of on my ancestors homeland and the old gods gave it to us, so you can maybe go to Canada and get refugee status... No you can't come back, once you leave. So what if I held a shotgun on you to force you out, you left, you live in Canada now. Oh, so you moved into this little lot next door, that's nice, but I don't feel safe with you there, the way you fought to keep this house makes me worry you may try to harm me.
I going to have to have my fence moved over so I can monitor you. These mobile homes? Oh I'm just going to settle my cousins on your lot with you, stay away from their trailers or the dog will get you. My cousin is harassing you? Yeah right, your always complaining, be happy I let you live on that lot, but were going to have to move you further towards the neighbors yard, you're scaring my cousins, they say you've been throwing rocks at them. They threw rocks at you first? Tattle tale, you just a thug trying delegitimize my cousins.
This is what you sound like, only meaner.
You sound like a segregationist.
Back to the subject.
Idk. I need more info. But the rocks didn't injure that baby, crashing a car into the back of a truck caused that babies injuries. No rocks hit the car that the baby was in. The parent who was driving evidently didn't leave enough space to make an abrupt stop and may have been tailgating. Should be cited for following too closely.
We don't know who threw the rocks, could have been settler kids, could have been Palestinian kids.
Tell me this.
If it were found out that it was some Israeli settlers kids playing a dangerous prank, do you want them to be charged with terrorism? I hope so, but we both know that would never happen in a million years.
You have got to stop deciding for people what they support or you'll never actually know what they support. I've already said at least 3 times on this long thread that I don't support violence against babies. Or civilians.
I did say soldiers are fair game. Are you going to ask me again if I support attacks on women and children?? I bet you will. Even though I just said I don't. You just like to make me deny it, right?
I hope one day you stop supporting the incitement of violence and grow your circle of compassion to include all of humanity.
shira
(30,109 posts)You sound like a segregationist.
But that's not what I believe. The segregationists here are the ones arguing Jews don't belong in East Jerusalem. They agree with Hamas and PA management that no Jews should be allowed there.
Idk. I need more info. But the rocks didn't injure that baby, crashing a car into the back of a truck caused that babies injuries. No rocks hit the car that the baby was in. The parent who was driving evidently didn't leave enough space to make an abrupt stop and may have been tailgating. Should be cited for following too closely.
Unbelievable how you'd charge the mother driving the car of ramming the truck.
The rock-throwing caused the crash that resulted in an injured baby and in no way can you bring yourself to say that you're totally against it.
So assume Palestinians did it. Then what? You support this "resistance" or not?
If it were found out that it was some Israeli settlers kids playing a dangerous prank, do you want them to be charged with terrorism? I hope so, but we both know that would never happen in a million years.
If settler kids did it, of course the book should be thrown at them and they should be charged.
I did say soldiers are fair game. Are you going to ask me again if I support attacks on women and children?? I bet you will. Even though I just said I don't. You just like to make me deny it, right?
So if you're against attacks on women, children, civilians, and babies I would expect you to come right out and condemn the videos showing Palestinian kids attacking civilians in their cars. Your general statements aren't cutting it when it comes to these specific cases. I'm now wondering what kind of specificity you're looking for so that I could know for sure exactly what it is you're against. All these deflections, justifications, and evasions are what makes me doubt what you're saying.
So to summarize:
a) You said you're against attacks on women, children, babies, civilians, etc. I'm showing you the results of such attacks and I don't see you criticizing the Palestinians responsible for attacking those you say deserve protection.
b) You said you're for Palestinian attacks against the IDF, and I can now see you're for children carrying out those attacks...even when they're hiding amongst the press, using them as shields (whether the press is willing or not to be shields). I find it amazing you can't acknowledge the child abuse going on here (by their parents, by the PA/Hamas, by the media all encouraging them to risk their lives out there). Hiding behind human shields while attacking others is also a war crime. It appears you can justify (and thus support) all this in the name of "fighting occupation".
=================
You're part of the general trend I see here with the anti-zionists, so you're not alone. The problem is NONE of you, when asked, can come out and condemn terror attacks vs. civilians. You all justify it in your own ways. NONE of you have a problem with Palestinian leaders and parents encouraging their children to go out and put their lives on the line attacking soldiers or civilians.
What else am I to conclude other than that the fiercest critics of Israel are pretty bad, unsavory characters?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You go first.
shira
(30,109 posts)There's a lot to criticize Israel for.
Where should we start? Do you have 2-3 things in mind for starters?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You go first. I'm still waiting for you to start. And.... Go!!!
shira
(30,109 posts)1. I think when Israel builds in areas that won't be part of Israel in any legitimate future deal, it's wrong.
2. I think some of the things Israel didn't allow into Gaza earlier during the siege was bullshit. Israel was wrong.
3. I think when Israel drags its feet dealing with crazy settlers who do harm to Palestinians, that's wrong.
You're on the clock.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)exist.
I think that using suicide bombers was deplorable and inhumane.
I think they should not attack civilians on purpose, although idk if they do it on purpose.
I think they should have been working harder towards international recognition and UN membership, regardless of how the leaders of Israel felt about it.
I think they have sucky ass rockets and should not bother shooting projectiles that have no effect. Might as well use Roman candles. Really ineffective if you're trying to scare somebody.
shira
(30,109 posts)I think that using suicide bombers was deplorable and inhumane.
Congrats. Your pro-Palestinian colleagues here are unable to type that. I can no longer categorize you as I do them. I don't think they're good people, btw.
Of course they attack civilians on purpose. The rockets are aimed at towns/cities. Videos show youth throwing rocks at civilian cars. The PA/Hamas leadership encourages, glorifies, and rewards terror operations against innocents. I can't imagine what kind of evidence you need to acknowledge it.
I'd be for that, so long as they recognize Israel's right to exist, which they don't.
I don't know how to read this. If the rockets were better and more effective at killing, then they should consider shooting them over the border into Israel?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think they seem like good people. I can support Palestine without wanting the distraction of Israel.
The world isn't black and white. Nobody is completely good or evil.
Those kids throwing rocks are kids throwing rocks. Nothing more or less. They're kids regardless of what you think and they have been confined, are under siege and being occupied by an enemy military force. I think the army can handle a few teenagers without making it into an international scandal.
The PA has recognized Israel's right to exist. Just not as a purely Jewish nation. As an atheist, I agree. There are atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and I'm sure other religious groups living there.
They do recognize Israel's right to exist. Stop saying they don't because it weakens your argument when you lie. I think you meant to say " as a Jewish nation" because that's the part they leave out when they recognize Israel's right to exist. You're not being honest with yourself.
As for the sucky rockets. I question the tactic of using rockets that a high school physics class would laugh at. I just don't understand the point.
If the rockets were better and more effective at killing, Israel would have them. Period. You'd never let them own high grade weaponry. How would they get them? Who'd bring them in? The IDF? Egypt?
It's okay for Israel to bomb Palestine and 'accidentally' kill civilians, but it's not okay for Palestine to shoot rockets at Israel and 'accidentally' kill Israelis? Why?
I think that if it's okay for Israel to bomb Palestine, then it'd okay for Palestine to bomb Israel.
I'm all about equality. Same rules for everybody.
What about you? Do you believe in the same rules for everybody? If not, why not?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If you do, you are a segregationist.
I believe that if Israel were not occupying Palestine, they would be more welcoming.
They don't want you there because you are an occupying force.
Make a peace agreement and end the siege and occupation and one day they will not harbor such hatred toward your government. As it is, they are being occupied.therefore, they hate their captors and aren't loving you settling there. Because, the occupation makes it hard to feel happy about new neighbors who have more rights than you popping up in villages that they can't live in.
You all have brass IMHO.
shira
(30,109 posts)If I did, how would that make me a segregationist?
Well then where was that welcome wagon in 1967 when Israel was attacked?
They don't want you there because you are an occupying force.
But they didn't want Israel in 1948 or 1967 either, before any occupation.
That's naive. The hatred existed prior to 1948 and also in 1967.
You all have brass IMHO.
Your understanding of the conflict is lacking. It would be like me trying to lecture you on something I have no clue about, like the way you've been treated as a minority in America. Now THAT would take brass IMHO.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Like when new people move in and harass those already living there and are protected by soldiers of an invading military force. Like that kind of segregation.
Like if I move to a town in Mexico and kick all of the locals out and bring in Mexican Americans and other Americans, I don't think the Mexicans living there are going to welcome me. They'll probably throw rocks at us or something.
I don't know where the welcome wagon was in 1967. My mom was 6. There's not a whole lot of smartphone videos out there for me to locate it. Maybe you guys blew it up on accident.
Of course they didn't want you there. Therefore you have to move deeper into their land so they'll hate you more. Gotta build settlements to show them that there is nothing they can do about anything. Why leave them any land to have a country? Better to get rid of all of them once and for all, amiright?
I'm sure while they were hating you you guys were all so sad about that. I'm sure you were like, we love you guys, please stay here with us and share the land. I'm sure nobody was even speaking of taking the entire place and slowly making it all Israeli territory. Why would anyone think that, just because that's what happened? Well not yet, but soon, I'm sure. They hated you and you hated them. Both sides harbored hatred and you know it.
Of course my understanding is limited. But I am not trying to lecture you. Trying to give you a fresh perspective, since there aren't many who bother to engage you on this particular forum. And I thought we were having a thoughtful discussion, much better than I've had with most anti-Palestinian members of this group.
You are an insular little group back here and do not welcome differing opinions and seem to be of mind that you are superior to those who challenge your narrow minded views. I'm not saying that to be harsh, just think a little empathy and clarity may do us all some good. Your propensity for evading questions is legendary as far as I'm concerned, kudos!
I can see good and bad on both sides, but I don't have a vested interest in a greater Palestine or a greater Israel. It's your children who will be murdering each other because of what happened in 1967, not mine. I'd tell my children to not relive my life or my parents life and be free of the hate. But that's just me.
I may not have all of the history memorized, but I do see that what's going on over there is appalling. I was against the Iraq war, Afghanistan, and I'm just not of a mind that long term military occupations should be normalized or seen as anything other than what it is. Militarized threat of force on civilian populations for the sole purpose of domination of one people over another.
It's not something you should feel comfortable about and supportive of.
Most people share my view, you just don't know it. That's why the world is constantly pressuring you for a solution. It's getting old and we're losing patience, and don't think your leaders are serious about ever solving the problem. And look, they just announced... MORE SETTLEMENTS!! I know yours just as shocked as I am.
shira
(30,109 posts)...in which settlements were built. They were built on land where there weren't any Palestinians. Israeli law makes it illegal for settlements to be built on private Palestinian land. There are few exceptions to the rule, and I agree they're bullshit, but the vast majority of settlements weren't built on privately owned Palestinian land.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Some were built on private Palestinian and you know full well I'm referring to that. And they were booted from some of the areas that settlements were built on.http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/settlers-in-west-bank-outpost-build-new-homes-on-private-palestinian-land-1.425151
http://www.haaretz.com/news/peace-now-32-of-land-held-for-settlements-is-private-palestinian-property-1.215530
http://www.yesh-din.org/infoitem.asp?infocatid=355
If Israel can do that to them, then they can build tunnels on private Israeli land. Fairs fair right? You do believe in fairness, don't you?
Why should there be a special set rules just for you? Do you believe you are above the other humans who live on earth?
And don't try to lie to me, I can read too.
And yes, once again so I never have to say this again, PALESTINIANS WERE BOOTED FROM THEIR PRIVATE PROPERTY TO BUILD SETTLEMENTS. I never do the all caps thing, but you need to see it in bold print. You trust Haaretz, right? I mean this article is from there and you posted it.
Click on the links and you will see that I am telling the truth and you are equivocating.
shira
(30,109 posts)...claiming settlements is the reason for all the hatred, ignoring all the hate pre-1948 and 1967. You then claim Palestinian hatred of Israel is because Palestinians are being kicked out in favor of settlers and this angers them to no end....they're so pissed over the handful of Palestinians this has unfortunately happened to.
Earlier you claimed you're okay with adults throwing stones at other adults, but when shown it's children you're silent, evading, deflecting, justifying, and equivocating. You're not sure they deliberately attack civilians or are encouraged to sacrifice their lives by adults throwing them into the line of fire.
Come on.
Enough bullshit.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)they hate you.
So, before 1967, no Palestinians were driven from their homes and replaced with Israelis? They made all that shit up to make you guys look bad, right? You mean to tell me that this never happened?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Day
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus
You better tell Wikipedia that they got that shit wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet never happened right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_Arab-Israeli_conflict
Lying about this too right?
Of course they hate Israel-and Israel hates them.
I have no idea why those kids were throwing rocks. I told you I couldn't understand the language they were speaking in the video, so I still have no idea wtf was going on. Was it filmed in Hasbarollywood? Not saying you would fake that, but you've been quite skeptical of some videos posted here and I feel that I should do the same, just to be safe. You never know when somebody is trying to pull a fast one. Especially when you can't understand what they're saying in the video.
I love when you say " enough bullshit". It makes me think you might finally be done bullshitting and we're getting somewhere, then I realize that you mean me. And I find that ironically funny. I'm still chuckling a bit at the biggest doo-dooer telling me I smell like poop.
And remember not to prevaricate next time.
shira
(30,109 posts)...who recruited for the Waffen SS. I posted a video from an old lady in her 90's who spoke of the 1929 Hebron massacre.
The stuff you're trying to cite are excuses for Palestinian haters who need no excuses for their hate. You should know that people who hate blacks don't need reasons for their hate either.
And I'm sorry, but posting evidence of Palestinian genocidal incitement and hatred is not racist.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The 1929 Hebron massacre? That's the excuse?
I don't believe you. I think that any excuse will do when you want to steal and oppress people.
You believe in occupation and war and cluster bombs on civilians, and you have nerve to call someone else genocidal? You, who calls all Palestinian youths terrorists and baby killers, and thugs?
Get out of your bubble. You're stuck Like chuck.
shira
(30,109 posts)Those you support want 1-state replacing Israel and more conflict.
I have no problem with one state if that what the majority of the people want.
Democracy. That's how it works.
Majority rules, protection for the minority.
You can still have peace with one state. It's been done before. Countries have split and come back together.
shira
(30,109 posts)....and about 10% of Palestinians are for that. Together, more than 90% of Jews and Palestinians combined are against.
The vast majority of Palestinians for 1-state are for a sharia based society. Very bad for women, gays, christians, blacks, and jews.
Zionists for 1-state would be for a greater Israel in all the territories.
Those for BDS and 1-state (secular democracy) would have to forcefully impose their solution against the wishes of the population.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'll wait to hear from them if They are allowed to speak for themselves.
Once they can vote in the elections for the government holding them hostage, we'll know what they want. Or they could tell us themselves, cause you are not a good spokesman.
shira
(30,109 posts)============
Of the 1,024 people surveyed, only 10.4 percent shared Mr. Abu-Lughod's dream of a ''democratic, secular'' Palestinian state. Instead, nearly 60 percent dream of a state founded on Islamic law (26.5 percent) or on a hybrid of Islam and Arab nationalism (29.6 percent).
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/06/opinion/l-who-wants-a-democratic-secular-palestine-807988.html
============
From 2011...
About how the respondents identify themselves, the majority, 57%, identified themselves as Muslims, 21% identified themselves as Palestinians first, 19% as human beings first and 5% as Arabs first.
The increase in adherence to religious identity is also reflected in the system preferred by the Palestinian people.
About 40% of the respondents said that they believe that the Islamic caliphate is the best system for Palestinians, 24% chose a system like one of the Arab countries, and 12 % prefer a system like one of the European countries.
http://english.wafa.ps/index.php?action=detail&id=16042
Now that you know the natives of Palestine (both Jews and Palestinians) utterly reject 1-secular state, for different reasons, what do you make of BDS'ers trying to impose their own version of justice on the people of I/P?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I wanted single payer, we got republican health care reform.
People have the right to lobby for what they want. They don't always get it.
shira
(30,109 posts)...such a solution against the wishes of > 90% of the people.
It's a non-starter.
It's colonialists telling the natives they know what's best for them.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They can advocate for their idea. Free speech and all. Don't understand the hate.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They threw rocks at some dudes dressed like soldiers and some military vehicle.
No babies were harmed in the production of this film.
Let me watch it again and make sure.
Yep. No babies or grandmothers.
This is in Palestine correct?
Why are the Israeli soldiers there in Palestine messing with teenagers?
Of course kids throw rocks at enemy soldiers occupying their land?
Just for the sake of argument........
Let's just say Hamas conquers Israel. I know it's not likely but just go with it.
If there were Hamas soldiers in Tel Aviv I would think that Israeli kids would throw rocks too.
Wouldn't they? If Hamas occupied Israel, you would advise all Israelis to just kick back and not anger Hamas and just enjoy being dominated and occupied. Good to know. If it ever happens I better not see you encouraging Israeli civilians to fight off the invading forces. And if Israeli kids throw rocks at the occupying Hamas soldiers you better call them militants, thugs, terrorists, and any other colorful terms you can come up with. Accuse them of baby murderers and all of the other nice things you reserve to say about Palestinian teens.
If you didn't, wouldn't to be a hypocrite?
I think so.
Imagine Israel occupied by Hamas, then you can put yourself into the shoes of those kids. They feel just like you would feel if Israel were being dominated by Palestine. Then imagine the world did not care about you.
shira
(30,109 posts)They see Israeli license plates and they go to town throwing rocks. A baby could be in the backseat, maybe a grandmother. Who knows? These kids don't care. Does it matter? They're throwing rocks at civilian cars on a civilian road. Anyone could be in those cars.
Assume the worst, that all cars have settler drivers and families within them, driving on roads across the green line, most likely in East Jerusalem.
Are Jews in East Jerusalem legit targets for stone-throwing Palestinians in your view?
=============
If Hamas were in charge, Jews wouldn't be sending their kids outside to throw rocks at them as that would be suicidal. Hamas wouldn't hesitate to respond violently, whether by torture or outright killing.
I think it's vulgar for any parent to allow their child out to "confront the enemy" and risk being hurt.
It's even worse when the PA and Hamas encourage children to sacrifice themselves.
=============
Do you agree with Hamas and the PA encouraging children to go out and sacrifice themselves?
What do you make of parents who allow their children to go out and throw stones at civilian cars from the side of the road (or from an overpass or bridge)?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)When I was a kid we threw them at cop cars. I lived in Rampart division and the crooked cops would come into our neighborhood and abuse and assault our youth. Some got taken and beat up and dropped of in enemy territory wearing the wrong colors. This was a fun game for the cops in LA. They would go through our pockets and steal our money and call us thugs, and punks and criminals.
They would search us for no reason. Arrest young men and accuse them of things they didn't do, their word against ours, right?
How do I know this us not what is going on?? If your soldiers are mistreating the youths, that may be why they are throwing rocks.
I have now come to the conclusion by interacting with you, that the IDF is mistreating the youth of Palestine and violating their human rights. It's the only conclusion that I can come up with based on the videos and your words.
As for the article, no one know who threw the rocks that hit that truck that the car with the baby ran into. Maybe it was settlers?? They seem to like to throw rocks too, but it's okay when they do it, so I think it was them.
Why do you support settlers throwing rocks at Palestinian babies, cancer patients, and old grandmothers? That's cold.
shira
(30,109 posts)Israel isn't perfect and they definitely make mistakes, sometimes mistreat Palestinians, and do the wrong things. But I challenge anyone here to find another country in a similar situation - at war with its neighbors for over 6 decades - that acts better towards the enemy's civilians. You won't find one.
Maybe. But does that justify them throwing rocks at random Israelis, Jews, grandmas, babies? If so, why?
As for the article, no one know who threw the rocks that hit that truck that the car with the baby ran into. Maybe it was settlers?? They seem to like to throw rocks too, but it's okay when they do it, so I think it was them.
Why do you support settlers throwing rocks at Palestinian babies, cancer patients, and old grandmothers? That's cold.
This is all deflection. I asked you simple direct questions and you've done everything you can to avoid answering honestly. What do you fear by answering a few questions? We're both anonymous on the internet. If you have real questions for me, I'll gladly answer. I just expect the same from you. Deal?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I was trying out your tactic of accusing a stranger on the internet of supporting the murder of babies and grandmothers.
I don't know for sure that they're doing the things you accuse them of.
Besides I kinda wanted to talk about the impassable, baby killing terror tunnels. That don't exist.
Or the many tunnel murders of civilians and small disabled children. That aren't happening.
Or all of the tunnel kidnappings of civilians and families. That aren't happening.
How can I believe the baby killing rock murdering is happening?
The one video I did understand somewhat, I only saw them throwing rocks at soldiers. And I said it was okay to throw rocks at soldiers.
The other video, I could not tell what was going on or why.
Even if I say that they should sit back and submit, like David says, will they?
I don't think so.
If the IDF cant handle a few teenagers then they're screwed.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Tue Oct 29, 2013, 07:58 PM - Edit history (1)
Anyone could be in them.
You can doubt the content of 10 more videos, but I'm asking you to at least ASSUME that your eyes aren't deceiving you. And if they aren't, do you support or condemn what you're seeing?
Here's one more...
There was a boy in the car.
If you're in FAVOR of children throwing rocks at civilian vehicles that very well COULD contain children, just say so. I can only assume that when you make excuses and justify what's going on, you DO in fact support it.
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)prisoners of war, then Israel is fully justified in the blockade that it has on Gaza. And under international law Israel has every right to blockade Gaza as it has it now.
Israel does not control the southern border that Gaza has with Egypt. Egypt closed it down because of what Hamas was doing to arm terrorists, bandits.
As a reminder there are no Israeli troops in Gaza, and Hamas has said that it wants to free 'all of occupied palestine from river to sea' which means destroy Israel.
How about the people of Gaza fight against Hamas, who is the cause of the blockade? I believe that the majority of the people of Gaza want peace, but they are lead by a terror organization.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Does Gaza have a right under international law to fight against those who are holding them as POW's.
If they are POWS like you say, they should be trying to arm themselves and fight back. Or at least build tunnels to escape the prison.
Why should GAZA fight Hamas if ISRAEL IS THE ENTIYY KEEPING THEM HELD AS PRISONERS OF WAR??
You don't make any sense.
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)I was responding to your earlier comment that the people of Gaza have a right to kidnap Israeli soldiers and keep them as prisoners of war.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Siege- a military operation in which enemy forces surround a town or a building, cutting off essential supplies, with the aim of compelling surrender of those inside.
Blockade- an act or means of sealing of a place, to prevent goods or people from entering or leaving.
These things are acts of war. You do realize that don't you? Israel's blockade keeps GAZANS IMPRISONED. Therefore Gazans have the right to fight back!!
Soldiers are fair game in war. This is a fact that you cannot dispute.
When you take Hamas fighters prisoner, they are a POW.
When Hamas takes an IDF soldier prisoner, they are a POW.
If IDF has the right to kidnap Hamas soldier and keep them as prisoners of war, then Hamas has the right to do the same to IDF soldiers.
There is no rule that states that if you are fighting IDF, you must just lay down your arms and surrender. That would be ridiculous.
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)the southern border of Gaza.
Does this mean that Hamas is at a state of war with Egypt if they do not allow everything/everyone in and out?
The Israeli blockade of Gaza is not an act of war and is perfectly legal under international law, because a state of war already existed prior to the blockade, due to the attacks on Israel by Hamas with rockets, bombs.
and if Hamas wants to kidnap Israeli soldiers and attack Israel, then they have to accept that there will be consequences for those actions
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Are you sure you want to keep this going?
It's not going well for you.
All right, here goes........
I never said Israel controlled the southern border of Gaza. Obfuscation.
No Egypt is not at war with Hamas. They'll let us know if they decide to do that.
Read up on blockades okay? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade -rarely not an act of war.
Israel has also been bombing Palestine, but I guess those are 'legal' bombs.
I think Hamas accepts the consequences just fine, they did take responsibility for the tunnels, right? It's you who can't accept the consequences of the occupation. You can't even connect the dots between the occupation/ siege and the tunnels. You have no idea why the Palestinians think they have any reasons to be upset.
I bet you think they should all just move to Jordan and spare you their presence.
You blow my mind.
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)pulled fully out of gaza, with no blockade. It was only after rockets started raining down on civilians that a blockade was imposed.
AS for the blockade itself, from your own link
"Since 1945, the UN Security Council determines the legal status of blockades and by article 42 of the UN Charter, the Council can also apply blockades.[5]
According to the not ratified document San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994,[6] a blockade is a legal method of warfare at sea but is governed by rules. The manual describes what can never be contraband. The blockading nation is free to select anything else as contraband in a list, which it must publish.
The blockading nation typically establish a blockaded area of water, but any ship can be inspected as soon as it is established that it is attempting to break the blockade. This inspection can occur inside the blockaded area or in international waters, but never inside the territorial waters of a neutral nation. A neutral ship must obey a request to stop for inspection from the blockading nation. If the situation so demands, the blockading nation can request that the ship divert to a known place or harbour for inspection. If the ship does not stop, then the ship is subject to capture. If people aboard the ship resist capture, they can be lawfully attacked."
No where in the link you provided does it say "blockade rarely not an act of war"
AS for the fate of a Palestine, I think it should consist of Gaza, most of the west bank (with the exception of the old city of Jerusalem), and perhaps some small land swaps along the border of the WB and Israel. This would include all settlers removed from the West bank (by force of Israeli troops if need be). In fact I think Israel should do this unilaterally if need be.
If there is a peace treaty signed (with Hamas signed on to it as well), Israel would lift the sea blockade. At that point Israel if it so chose could keep the border between itself and Palestine closed (with the exception of pilgrims going to the old city holy sites) that would be up to Israel (as it would with any sovereign country and their borders). All people (no matter where they are coming from) would have to go thru UN ran security checkpoints to enter the old city. (UN ran as to avoid any claiming of foul play on any part). Holy sites would be ran by various religions, with Israel having political control over the old city.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If you had pulled back to the green line inside your own territory I could understand. Instead we have a case where you're angry that those under occupation have the gall to fight you back. gaza is not all of Palestine and you did a half assed sorry version of a pullout. You weren't doing them any favors.
According to your post: " a blockade is a legal method of warfare" act of war, method of warfare, act of war, method of warfare. How exactly did I get that wrong? Is not using a method of warfare, an act of war?
I have been searching for a case where a legal method of warfare is not an act of war, bug I can find anything except for one case, and in that case there was a war going in. So even though no shots were fired, it was still an act of war.
I love how you have decided the fate of Palestine for the Palestinians. I'm sure they're so grateful.
If you think that's what it should be then why the new settlements? It doesn't seem to the entire rest of the world that there is ever any intention of going anywhere. And it illegal. And it's sanction by your government. You all don't have clean hands of good intentions where the Palestinians are concerned. The plan is okay except for Israel having any control of the old city, that should be controlled for the next hundred years by the international community. We don't trust you to be fair.
You haven't been so far, and you have a list of UN resolutions and a slew of human rights abuses that you need to address.
If this is the plan it should have already been implemented in good faith. Otherwise it's just talk and words are wind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)method of warfare does not equal act of war.
Act of war is something like Hitler invading poland.
blockade is used when a war is already underway.
not to start a war.
There shouldn't be any new settlements and any existing ones should be dismantled.
Israel has been very fair with the old city in the time it has controlled it.
I do not trust the UN to control it as they already failed long ago to do their duty (Back in 1947/48).
delrem
(9,688 posts)I don't accept any Zionist shit about what Zionist Israel "should do", while marking time while Zionist Israel does the opposite.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If you use a method of warfare you are committing an act of war.
If I use a method of murder I am committing an act of murder.
You're not helping your case by trying to argue semantics with me on this one. I'm going to repeat back what you have said to me in plain English, paraphrasing.
Invading another country is an act of war, but once you are at war it's not an act of war to impose a naval blockade/ occupation. If they used a naval blockade to start the war then it is an act of war, but if the war was already ongoing then its not an act if war.
That is so ridiculous my brain hurts trying to justify that statement.
You trust the UN when it suits your goals and you reject the UN when it doesn't.
I'm glad you're at least not trying to justify the settlements.
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)act of war = is what starts a war
method of warfare = actions taken during a war.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'd agree if there had been a withdrawal. I hate arguing semantics. It's stupid.
I consider a blockade to be an aggressive action. Not peaceful.
This has been going on my entire life. 32 years. It's getting old, my generation sees things differently than my parents or grandparents. We don't believe you all have any intentions of ever pulling out as evidenced by the continuing expansion and colonization. Its pretty obvious.It's not worth it.
I wouldn't want everybody to see my nation as a bunch of criminals stealing land in this day and age with all the media, you can't hide your dirt anymore. We already stole a whole country from my ancestors, got cousins on the res. We don't deny the fact that a great many wrongs were committed.
I watch the videos of the settlers and I feel torn. On the one hand I think everybody should live together and have the same rights and live under one nation, one person one vote. It works for us for the most part. But then again, what do the people of Palestine want? If they want a 2 state solution I'll support them, one state- ill support them. I always support the oppressed. I think they're intelligent enough to make their own choices, do what works for them. It won't be pretty, and they'll have false starts, but it will work out in the end.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Who cares if they have a right or not? Israel will rightfully smash destroy and pulverize the tunnel and everyone within it to protect her citizens .
bravenak
(34,648 posts)LOL.
delrem
(9,688 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)johnd83
(593 posts)sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)Every country has a right to decide who and what is allowed in and out of its country.
Nobody has a right to just enter any country they want.
johnd83
(593 posts)Sanctions like that are normally imposed by the UN only in extreme cases.
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)they are smuggling in and out arms/weapons.
If they have concrete to use on tunnels, why aren't they using it to build housing and infrastructure?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Why not Palestine?
delrem
(9,688 posts)Gaza is under siege. Gaza, although it borders the Mediterranean, is under siege at sea. Gaza doesn't have access to its fishing grounds, offshore resources, or an open port to the world. Gaza is being fucking well pounded, for generations now.
Gaza is populated mostly (67% in 2011) by refugees from greater Palestine, lands that the refugees can see have been annexed, the names of their country totally renamed. Gaza's physical infrastructure has been destroyed. Israel dispenses with reconstruction materials as Israel sees fit -- training the Gazan population to know who is in control, and who is subject.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)know your history...why egypt shut down the border, why they shut down most of the tunnels...
when israel started to limit the imports and when they didn't.
know the original agreements and why they didn't work.
first step: agree with hamas (disagree) that hamas has an actual "foreign policy" and decides to build or not to build tunnels, to launch rockets on israel, to plant bombs or not to, to shoot anti tank missles accross the border or not to....
if you accept that hamas in fact does make decisions that affects its relationship with israel and egypt (as their leadership does), then you would realize that the blockade is part of a "cause and effect" that they are very much part of.
or you can disagree with the Palestenians an Hamas, and believe they are helpless victims. (but you have to be a condescending ethno centric "white educated colonialist' to believe that)
delrem
(9,688 posts)You don't become more coherent with simple repetition.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm struggling to follow along.
delrem
(9,688 posts)I'm always enthralled by what spouts from that hasbara account.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I haven't had much dealings with " sabbat hunter" but he is very sure of his responses. I believe it's mostly an act with these guys and they have prepared statements or scripts. It all sounds the same.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)others, i believe like u, have no idea what actually happens, what it looks like, how the people actually act....
as far as "scripting goes...an easy test:
you ask me anything and i'll answer directly, clearly and keep on answering until you feel you understand
and i get the same from you.....
do you dare?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Last edited Sat Oct 26, 2013, 03:24 PM - Edit history (1)
If your saying I don't live there, of course I don't. Duh.
I was just stating my opinion that yes they can build tunnels. You have since told me that they can't even ship goods as small as a box of paper clips through those tunnels because the entrance into Israel is well guarded or there is no one on the other side to assist them. Leading me to believe that they are not baby killing terror tunnels. Therefore I don't understand why the major outrage is occurring.
Shira informed me that even she cannot find a case where the tunnels have been used for killings or attacks, once against making me wonder, why all the outrage?
I do dare, but I actually don't have any questions for you at the moment. Except, why the outrage over neutralized tunnels that cannot even send a tube of toothpaste through them?
Are they baby killing terror tunnels, or unusable by terrorists since they have no one on the other side? They can't be both dangerous and weak and pathetic at the same time.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)there are tunnels that go to egypt: Egypt is where the commercial and military importing takes place. The City of Rafah is on the southern border of Egypt and Gaza, its split in two, half in egypt and half in gaza. Goods from egypt are brought in by truck to Rafah, and then into the tunnels to the other side, be they cars, washing machines, monkeys for the zoo, chloine for the 5 star hotels swimming pool, steaks for the restaurants, concrete for the tunnels, or simple cooking oil for the masses. Also, military weapon are smuggled into egypt and then brought in to gaza by military tunnels that hamas controls, these are different from the commercial ones.
this is what it looks like..all of those tents cover up tunnel entrances (this is egypt)
http://www.demotix.com/news/2233194/palestinian-fuel-escapes-tunnels-egypt-gaza-border/all-media
___
tunnels into Israel- east
there is no "commercial" use. The palestenians dig their tunnels either up to near the border fence or past it. If its near the border fence, they open it when they decide its a good time to attack the israeli soldiers or the border or at the import stations or plant a bomb, shoot a mortar, its a "hide and seek" game...they dig, the IDF tries to locate them before that can be used for an attack....
the ones that go past the border fence are used in attempts to kidnap israelis or attack israelis near the border. There is no commercial imports since no one in israel is going to risk their lives to trade directly with hamas (or get killed if the tunnel is discovered and a gun battle breaks out between hamas and the IDF). These are the more dangerous ones as far as israel is concerned and the search is more intense. They have but one reason for their existence and that is to either kill israelis or kidnap them. They have had a few success.
These tunnels that are used to plant bombs on the fence with attempts to kill our kids (soldiers) and friends, simply have no right to exist....we take attempts on our lives, no matter what clothes we are wearing very seriously.
I hope now you have a clearer picture of the tunnels that go south in the Egypt and those that go East in to Israel
bravenak
(34,648 posts)So they are using these tunnels currently to kidnap Israeli civilians and soldiers? How many have they taken in the last few years? I haven't heard of any of these kidnap victims, was it only covered in Israel or was it in the international news?
Do you have any of the names of these victims? What are you doing to get these people back home to Israel? I couldn't find any links to the abducted or those murdered through a tunnel. Do you happen to have any? Within the last few years?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Last edited Fri Oct 25, 2013, 06:15 PM - Edit history (1)
kidnap and killing attempts...if you havent hear about gilad, it means that you really have little knowledge of whats going on:
and a few simple examples:
On 25 June 2006 Palestinian militants used an 800-metre tunnel dug under the barrier over a period of months to infiltrate into Israel. They attacked a patrolling Israeli armored unit, killed two Israeli soldiers, and captured another one, Gilad Shalit.[21] Between January and October 2013, three tunnels crossing under the Israel border were identified – two of which were packed with explosives [22] The discovery of similarly constructed tunnels in other hemispheres of the world lead to threat assessment estimates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Gaza_barrier
do you need more..or do you now "get the pictures"
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Dave seems to think he could have avoided capture. Got himself caught.
Why do you expect the people who you are occupying not to fight you back????
It's like expecting a hostage to not try to escape. Not gonna happen.
You said that they couldn't get anything throughout the tunnels.
Not even medicine or non sinister items.
I remember because I just read it again a few minutes ago.
Maybe they had the tunnels packed with explosives to blow it up. And get rid if it. Or they had it rigged so that if if were found they could blow it up and get away.
I take it Israel has never set a bomb off in Palestine?
You have built yourselves some walls and an iron done defense system so I think you are well equipt to handle destroying a tunnel.
Make peace and the tunnels go away. Make peace and the violence can end. Give peace a chance.
You have done things to them they have done things to you. Deal with it and make a deal.
None of you are innocent.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)israel in 2004 destroyed all its settlements in gaza and left gaza to be ruled by the Palestenians. As a first step. There were 4 import stations for the gazans, 3 in israel, one in egypt. The concept was that as security increased for both sides, the trade would increase and gradually a port would be built for gaza…..peace would break out and this would influence the west bank as well.
the short history is that the day israel left, they received 30 rockets and after that for years almost a few rockets a day…over 6,000 rockets as well as machine gun attacks, etc
as the rockets and other attacks increased the trade slowed down, both Egypt and Israel started to restrict trade Because of the attacks upon both countries from gaza.
all hamas has to do, if they so desire is to stop attacking israel and egypt (arms smuggling) and they will have a chance a peace and a better life, its up to them.
They have a right to attack as much as they want….history has shown its a losing propostionfor them and when in fact israel did take the first step toward a peaceful solution, the result was increased attacks on Israel.
thats the actual history in the past few years, hamas had and still has choices, they have chosen their preferred route
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If you are blockading them them why shouldn't they fight you?
How many weapons has Israel received since you pulled out of Gaza? Hypocritical to call them out for arming up when you are being supplied by the US military, isn't it.
Are you trying to say that Israel should have weapons, but Palestine should be unarmed and completely unable to fight back should there be continuing war?
Are you saying that Palestine isn't allowed to have weapons of war, but Israel should have the top of the line equipment?
I believe if they are being held under a military occupation it would be stupid of them in the extreme to disarm.
If the United States were being held under military occupation, we would try to purchase and use any and all weapons at our disposal to rid ourselves of the enemy forces. And we would be justified.
They don't have any reason to trust that there will be any solution coming from your president or government. You are enemy forces and they should not let you get comfortable with controlling their waters and airspace. They should not be complacent. I would advise you to do the same were you in that situation.
If Hamas stops attacking Israel they will get nothing for it.
A peaceful solution would be complete withdrawal from any and all occupied territory. Partial withdrawal is bullshit, excuse my French.
If you settle beyond your boundaries, the green line, don't be surprised if they attack you.
Because settling beyond the green line is an incitement to violence.
And you know that it's illegal.
And you don't care.
And more settlements were just announced.
And they were pissed.
And you don't care.
It's up to the citizens of your country to tell your government no.
No more settlements! It up to you to stop the violence.
Your just blaming the victim now.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)I'm not telling them to do anything. For all I care they can spend all of their money on long range missiles, or baby food, its up to them. If they use those missiles we'll shoot back, if they concentrate on their babies they will have peace….and land and eventually independence.
we do have history to show what happens when they stop attacking us..its history, something your ignoring because, as far as i understand, it contradicts your ideology.
they don't trust us and we don't trust them…thats nothing new, thats why no "agreement" is worth anything where as changes on the ground are.
Oslo came about, where they started with self-rule and israel pulled back, until they started blowing up our busses and restaurants. They're choice, and the process was stopped and then reversed.
No more settlements! It up to you to stop the violence.
In case you missed it, before gaza the mantra was israel has to "make the first step" do something concrete, show the palestenians that israel is serious. What did israel do? remove and destroy settlements.
and what did israel get in return?…….6,000 rockets, aimed primarily at its civilians. It would be pretty stupid of the israeli govt to repeat the samething, israel can't protect its civilians if the samething happens in the west bank.
and the Palestenians have and do make their own choices, they're pretty stupid ones, in my opinion but its their choices to make and they are well aware of the consequences. You for some reason, that i can only believe is based in racism, don't seem to hold the Palestenians as being responsible for their actions, as if they are "retarded" or something.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Why don't you get that? The violence is a consequence of the occupation.
The rockets were shot off so that you don't come back.
Is it so hard to make a connection between occupation/siege and Palestinian violence against the occupiers?
If I take over your entire house and live there forcing you into the garage, then I pull out of the garage leaving it for you, you might throw something at me as I exit, to say, don't come back!
You'd still want your entire house back without me in it. By your reasoning, you'd be a terrorist for Throwing something at me.
Why do you think you should get some big reward for a partial pullout and continuing settling? They should have been mad that you didn't completely pull out to your side of the green line.
The violence that continues is a response to being occupied and oppressed and under the thumb of Israel who has the backing of the west.
With all the human rights abuses, and UN resolutions, Its amazing that you have such gall as to complain about the people you are currently oppressing. Amazing really, I'm impressed. Like Slave masters complaining about how the slaves backtalk or get to uppity.
So they build tunnels. You call them illegal.
You build settlements. The whole world calls them illegal.
You point a finger at them and you have ten pointing back at you.
Israel has admittedly conducted ethnic cleansing, although some try to deny it.
Contact hasbara inc and tell them to send you some new material cause you ain't fooling nobody anymore. I can check your facts and get the idea. You have not been oppressed by Palestine, they are fighting you back. As they have the right to do. Even you cannot dispute the fact that an occupied nation has the right, if not duty to resist their oppressors.
One day the US will not veto a resolution. Then you will be forced to take a good look at yourselves and decide if this is the image you want to portray to the world. Do you want to be seen by the world as land grabbers and violent oppressors? As hypocrites? Cause that's what we see and we don't like it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Or you could move to a new house.
A lot of folks had to do that in the 1940s.
delrem
(9,688 posts)why shouldn't the victims of this theft of their entire estate shoot the thieving huns right between their narrow, squinty little rat eyes?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)the arab israelis who remained, happen to prefer israeli democracy over the other options..
of course there are those who discount their opinions because they are simply the "brown natives' and really don't know any better.
that is your opinion, is it not?
delrem
(9,688 posts)I don't think you have the remote fucking clue.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)aren't you living in Canada?….how many kilometers is that from the nearest israeli arab village? Do you even know what an israeli arab village looks like?, hell do you even have any idea of what they believe? Have you even ever spoken to an israeli arab? ever?
lets face it, your attitude and the colonialists of past in regards to the world are one and the same: you all just KNOW what is good for the natives.
and i do love the irony of those exact same attitudes that you hold so dearly (and so much want to distance yourself from)
delrem
(9,688 posts)From the objective point of view of having no other interest in matters so far away except in observing how justice is served, I make my judgement.
Deal with it.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)this is my favorite part: where the westerner declares that they know what justice is…..
and how does the colonialist believe that, their version of justice is the "proper one?" they declare it a "universal justice", which means their version of "justice" is the superior one and all of the others ones are to be discounted.
is that not the same exact belief that the brits and other europeans had in the 1700's in regards to the third world? Your values are the superior ones, and this is in regard to places all over the world where you have never been and have not the slightest clue of the natives beliefs.
great to be a colonialist isn't it (and as a plus you get to sneer and make snide comments at all those lesser humans that dare to disagree with you, I'm just shakin in my boots waiting to hear some nasty comment from you that will simply ruin my day…go for it!!!!!)
delrem
(9,688 posts)putting a rock 'n roll spin to it?
Fail.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)you mentioned "justice"
i'm just curious as to who's definition of justice, I'm just guessing here, but you probably don't agree with the Taliban version of justice, or the Saudi Arabia version or the Iranian version…..
or perhaps you do? would you like to defend their version of justice?
delrem
(9,688 posts)All I said was:
"From the objective point of view of having no other interest in matters so far away except in observing how justice is served, I make my judgement.
Deal with it."
pelsar
(12,283 posts)so i am asking you who is defining this justice? Justice is not defined the same by every culture in the world
you wrote "objective"….as if "objective" is the same for every person, every culture in the entire world
perhaps you believe in some "universal justice" …do you? that everyone must believe in
delrem
(9,688 posts)pelsar
(12,283 posts)you can always tell when you found the persons "holy of holies" because they can't discuss it. Its like telling a religious settler that god really didn't give them that land….
or a progressive that his definition of justice is in fact not universal and they're attitude toward others in other cultures mimics the colonialists.
___
can't discuss it, because you simply can't fathom having your faith/belief even questioned, sort of like blasphemy isn't it?
delrem
(9,688 posts)I said:
"From the objective point of view of having no other interest in matters so far away except in observing how justice is served, I make my judgement.
Deal with it."
Your inventions just show the limited range of your stock of stereotypes.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)your repetition of the very same sentence is a good indication of your limited ability to explain yourself…we've been here before, and you always get stuck.
question your ethnocentric version of justice and your stuck….though in the past you would express yourself using short emotional rants, so i do see here an psychological improvement, clearly you've found a way to control yourself, and that is a good thing, the next step in your multistep process, is to learn to explain your simple statements as opposed to endless repetition
i believe you've come a long way, don't stop now…..i believe you can do this
delrem
(9,688 posts)and what bearing has that on what I said?
I understand hasbara: don't reply to what is *said*, make any kind of rational or irrational accusation instead.
But you aren't good at it.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)and here if I'm not clear, you should ask, its the basis for human communications.
you apparently believe that your version, how you define "justice" and objectivity" has world wide acceptance. That what you see happening in the middle east, what you see as "wrong or right" is what the israeli and Palestenians, and bedouin, and druze must also see and agree with you.
you can't even accept the notion that they may not agree with your definition of what is justice, that is why you have an ethnocentric viewpoint, your definition of "justice is based on your culture.
now if i am mistaken, you should explain why as opposed to some 5th grade level remark
Response to pelsar (Reply #268)
Post removed
oberliner
(58,724 posts)As long as you are willing to deal with the potential consequences of that decision.
delrem
(9,688 posts)by telling the victim "get the fuck out and suck it up, slave!"
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I knew it, I just wanted you to say it.
If I took over your entire house, I should GTFO since I'm trespassing.
Way to try to justify the theft of land and blame the refugees for not just finding somewhere else to live and crying over their lost homes.
Selfishly transparent. I'm saddened by the lack of empathy you show for other humans you share the world with. I'm sorry that you place yourself above others and believe in your own supremacy.
They should just all find another house to live in. I can't believe you said that.
Now I officially know that your position is that all of those indigenous people should walk the Trail of Tears and find a reservation to live on so as to not bother the imperialistic land thieves.
Why should you care about the people whose land you stole? Fuck em, amirite? Should have gotten out faster and you wouldn't have to keep them blocked in.
Your arrogance astounds me.
It's no wonder Israel's losing the PR war.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I don't know what you are talking about.
I know you are relatively new to the discussions in this forum, but for going on almost ten years I've been promoting a two-state solution along the lines of the Geneva Initiative.
I have been consistently arguing in support of the establishment of an independent Palestinian state similar to what can be found in that proposal.
Check out the website:
http://www.geneva-accord.org/
With respect to your analogy, if someone comes and kicks you out of your house, you do have the option of moving to another house somewhere else.
All through the 1940's large numbers of people in various parts of the world were displaced from their homes and were forced to leave those homes behind and start new lives elsewhere.
It was a terribly tragic time for a lot of people, but now, over sixty years later, many of the descendants of those who suffered during that tumultuous decade are now living in relative peace and prosperity in new lands despite being "kicked out of their house".
In any case, I know it's fun to play games with metaphors and similes and the like, but I think it is important to focus on the here and now and to work together to support a peaceful resolution to a conflict that has gone on for too long.
One that results in an independent and completely free Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza that is committed to living at peace with Israel.
Do we have any common ground there?
If so, do check out the Geneva Initiative. If there is anything I consider myself a PR representative for - it is that proposal.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I apologize.
But I still think I'd be out of line to take over your house.
I'd never try it anyway though.
And I'm too poor to afford another place to live. Paycheck to paycheck. I'd drag somebody out of my house through the streets if they tried to come and take over.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And I mean that sincerely.
I do get the point you are making with the kicked out of the house metaphor, of course, but I don't entirely agree that it is completely apt with respect to Israelis and Palestinians. I'll just leave it at that.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)So you are living in this house that is owned by someone else. A stranger appears and says that he has been kicked out of his house and has been told by the owner of your house that he can live there with you. The owner had told him that this house will be divided, and he was granted permission to live on one side while you have to live on the other side. The good news is though that each side of the house will belong to each of you, there will no longer be an outside owner.
So one option would be to say, screw that. This is my house. It's not my problem that this random person got kicked out of his house. He has no claim to living in half of my house. This deal is not fair and I won't stand for it. I am going to try to physically remove him from any part of my house if he won't leave.
Another option would be to say, you know I kinda feel bad for this guy who got kicked out of his house and though it sucks that I am now only able to live in one half of this house, at least the half will be mine entirely to do with as I wish. There will be no outside owner to answer to. So I guess I can figure out a way to make this work.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'd probably welcome a roommate.
I think one of the biggest mistakes made was to not accept the partition. But hindsight is 20/20 and I wasn't alive yet, but looking back, i would have taken the deal. That's just me.
But I can see where they are coming from, why they'd reject the plan. A lot of private land was stolen, and that is wrong and can't be justified. I have a good feeling that this is the decade that we will see improvement in the situation and some justice. Nobody ever gets all of what they want and everybody will just have to deal with it even if they don't accept it.
I think the civilian population of both countries are sick of it and they will find common ground to do the near impossible. If you can do it, it will be a model to the rest of the world. You'll have so many tourists, you'll be having to turn planes away at the gate. There are a lot of religious people ( some in my family) who'd love to take a trip there but are fearful. I kinda want to see the Dead Sea.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Here's to the civilian populations coming together to do the near impossible!
pelsar
(12,283 posts)this is why you believe what you do:
Why don't you get that? The violence is a consequence of the occupation.
The rockets were shot off so that you don't come back.
if you consider that israel itself is an occupation as do member of hamas and others, then obviously nothing israel will or can do will stop the violence as per your opinion until israeli is removed.
if your saying its just the occupation after 1967, then i would ask you, what was the 6 day war all about?, israel was not occupying anything and yet 5 arab countries attempted to destroy the whole country.
this is why history is important, if you know it, then your opinion will be based on actual facts and not some simplistic black and white fantasy
_______________________
The rockets were shot off so that you don't come back.
and if this is your belief, why would israel pull back on any more settlements, since obviously you believe once israel leaves they will start shooting more rockets at the civilians….and from the west bank, they wont need a rocket, a mortar will do (small, faster, cheaper), so that
we wont come back
i personally don't care what is declared "illegal" in the international world, since its nothing more than a political game.
remember i mentioned that sound like a racist to me?….still goes, You seem to think the leaders of hamas are not capable of thinking for themselves, they never mentioned that they shoot to keep israel from coming back, they have other reasons, that obviously you don't even respect, why not?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I don't know what your are trying to say.
I don't know all history but I read hella fast, yo. I don't want your one sided history, I like neutral sources. You are not a neutral source.
Yes, I'm saying the violence won't stop until you withdraw to your side of the green line completely. If they continue after that point you have the right to defend your borders, not to capture territory and colonize it. Your borders. The green line. If you step over the green line, you are infiltrating into their territory and they have the right to mow you down like you do when the get near your border.
What does the six day war have to do with it? If were going off the past the the US should be currently occupying Vietnam. Most of the Palestinians alive today were either minor children at that time or nit even born yet. They are being collectively punished because of the six day war??????!??
When my mom was Six???!?! Way to draw out the punishment! You are unreal, and your deflection of blame game is quite transparent to most other humans.
They can't trust you not to come back on your own cause you haven't frigging left yet!!!
Of course you don't care what's considered illegal, unless we're talking about the Palestinians doing something illegal. Then it's a big fucking civilian killing deal.
Israel has killed more Palestinian civilians than Palestine has killed Israeli civilians. Call me a liar.
The very fact that you place yourself above another people and hold them in captivity is the racism.
The fact that you approve of this makes you a racist.
Nice try. Me thinking that they have a right to fight back is racist?? Okay.
Your talking points are stale.
Of course they have other reasons to shoot. You give them more every time a new settlement is announced. Maybe they'll call me up and give me the mysterious other reasons.
Your narrative leaves much to be desired.
Like I said before.
Hamas has the right to dig tunnels.
That is what this was about before the unfortunate derailment of this thread.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i just happen to live here, and have a personal take on the matter.
you do know the famous definition of idiocy don't you?
its repeating the same thing over and over and believing there will be a different result.
there were two pullouts already, (remember history..the stuff you don't like):
oslo from parts of the west bank
gaza
Both ended up in having more attempts to kill us and a few minor wars….more violence, not less
and your suggestion is that we do it a third time?
btw, just for fun, what about the arabs in jerusalem (across the green line) who are not interested in living under a Palestenian flag? but prefer Israeli? I assume from your nationalistic/colonial point of view, their opinions are not counted?
____
your western attitude is classic, no matter if its 1700 or 2000, the western mindset is that you know what everyone wants,no matter where they live or who they are..you don't even have to bother talking to them, your superior culture tells you why they are doing what they are doing…thats the racism
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The definition of INSANITY is repeating the same thing over and over while expecting different results. If by that you were trying to call me an idiot it didn't work, because you have your definitions wrong. Maybe it's you, not me.
There was never a full and complete pullout. Partial. It never worked but you kept trying that half assed pullout. Insanity?? Perhaps.
I suggest that you've never fully pulled out in the first place.
If Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel and the want to remain in Israel what the hell do I care?? They can do that.
Should they make the decisions for the rest of Palestine? No, how absurd of you to even suggest that.
My western attitude blah blah blah!!
We both know you're the racist here. It's funny to me that you call me.... A black, Native American woman of being racist because I support the end of the occupation of Palestine by Israel.
Are you trying to tell me that the majority of Palestinians want to live under occupation? And it's racist to want to liberate them? Cause all the Palestinians want to live under an Israeli flag??
Like I said before, it's no wonder that Israel is losing the PR war, with supporters like you.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)and i stand corrected….insanity is the proper expression…..
your right it was not a full pullout, one reason is that the "full and complete pullout is not defined by the "natives" You believe its its the green line, others, including the Palestenians disagree with you and believe its the 49 line and still others believe its the whole of israel
so tell me great black native american, how is it that you can declare its the green line, when the dark, native Palestinians disagree with you?
_________
just because you black doesn't mean you can't be a racist, your skin color does not give you a pass on your colonialistic racist viewpoint.
Are you trying to tell me that the majority of Palestinians want to live under occupation
no I'm not, however, they also don't want to live under the theocratic rule of hamas, which for many is a lot worse than a secular occupation…..but then do you have any idea what living under hamas is like?
____
try again:
If Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel and the want to remain in Israel what the hell do I care?? They can do that.
Should they make the decisions for the rest of Palestine? No, how absurd of you to even suggest that.
they're homes are in E.Jerusalem, which is across the green line, are you suggesting that they should leave their homes and become refugees? for not wanting to live in Palestenian dictatorship?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Wasn't born yet.
You act like you've tried to pull back into your allotted area, and they keep trying to push you further.
Never said black people can be racist. Just has no effect. You have to have power for your racism to be effective or useful. Otherwise you're just bitching about your oppressors.
You're countrymen are colonizing Palestine and you have nerve to call me colonialist? You support the Israeli colonization of Palestine, which makes YOU the colonialist. Please, I know the sell mirrors in Israel, buy one.
They can get rid of Hamas if they want. Can they get rid of the IDF? They can form a new government and hold elections and, lo and behold they'd be free of Hamas.
I think that certain parts of disputed territory should be under international control for decades. As much time as the occupation lasted. That includes e Jerusalem. You can't trust each other so the international community will have to take care of you.
Solves that problem.
Thx.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i take it that you don't know that hamas is a dictatorship and very difficult to get rid of (see iran, see egypt, see lybia for examples)
Have you any idea how hamas rules?…they don't have elections
there you go again with your western colonial racist view point: you now want a new occupation, a different one….
I think that certain parts of disputed territory should be under international control for decades. As much time as the occupation lasted. That includes e Jerusalem. You can't trust each other so the international community will have to take care of you.
Solves that problem.
OMG, sounds 100% like western colonialism of the 1800's. "we'll take care of you since you natives can't play nicely
Tthe Palestenains don't agree with you, they don't want E. Jerusalem occupied by your foreign international occupation…so your for ignoring their wishes? Your advocating a NEW OCCUPATION by the west?…
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm ignoring your wants.
I don't trust you to tell me what the Palestinians want. If they have a desire I'm sure that they will express it and I'll probably support them.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)you made it clear ….you want a foreign force to occupy any disputed territories….
and this is because "your occupation" is the proper one, the justified one
so since you know what the Palestenains want, please tell me why they will agree to your occupation?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I never said a force?
I'll respect the wishes of the people.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)if you have people living in an area, which laws will they be living under? which courts? who will chase after and arrest those who disagree with this international place
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Policing their own communities.
We police ourselves and I trust others to do the same.
Most regular civilians are normal hardworking people.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)and the jewish and arabs communities that are at each others throats will now all of a sudden "police themselves?
members of the islamic jihad, and the settlers will now all of a sudden get a long in this "international area"…and who will be the judges..will they enforce the democratic laws of israel? or the dictatorship laws of the PA
last time they had "joint" Palestenians and israeli patrols, the Palestenian shot his israeli partner----didnt go so well
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think people are able to work together for a common goal.
You sound very paranoid.
The international community can help, but they don't live there. You have to police yourselves.
I think you're all intelligent enough to find a way to make it work. I believe in you.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)we accept islamic jihad's beliefs, the far right settlers beliefs……you guys all exist, all believe with all your heart that you are all right, you all believe that your way is the path to peace and love is via your beliefs
and you all ignore all history and the past experiences that don't seem to fit your beliefs…and i admit to a certain fascination for those who can manage to live in such a world of endless hope and beliefs
???
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i get the same exact sentence from settlers,and the hamas members who tell their friends and neighbors the same exact sentence
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'll stop.
I no longer believe you will do anything.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)believing in stuff is great…..the conflict here revolves around those very strong beliefs, be it far left, far right, or just god…its the moderates that get left out of the equation
where actions and events and recent history have more weight than mere beliefs
You don't seen to be very interested in solving anything, you seem to like the status quo. I understand.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i just don't believe in "naive" or god given solutions. I want solutions that provide for security based on past attempts, the success and the failures.
i want a solution, for example, that takes into account a PA govt that wont fall to hamas once we leave as per what happened in gaza
"solutions" that ignore the actual events and people and what they really want, are not just doomed to failure they will take with them many lives, thats what i want to avoid.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Why should you pick their government? Isn't that the racism you accused me of? Thinking I know what's best for Palestine, ignoring the peoples wishes, because of my superior colonial attitude?
How ironic that you're doing the very same thing you accuse me of. Maybe your the racist, not me.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)but if their govt wont leave us alone (as per the govt in gaza run by hamas), then yes i don't believe we leave until they have something stable that the Palestenians also support.
we get a say in what happens because our govt does not like it when they attempt to kill us with their rockets, and they understand they have the duty to protect us.
Keeping hamas out of the west bank is not just good for israel its good for the secular Palestenians who make up the majority of the population in the west bank. (just ask them, they're scared shitless of a hamas take over)
it has nothing to do with racism/colonialism, and everything to do with keeping a hostile/non stable govt in the west bank from existing and there by saving many many lives
bravenak
(34,648 posts)So why should they leave you alone?
How can they have a stable government if they've been controlled by outside forces for the most part? Democracy is ugly and messy. It takes a lot of trial and error to know what works and what doesn't work.
I didn't know Hamas was in the West Bank. I learn something new everyday, thx. When did that happen? Oh, I get it. You're saying they might want to take over the West Bank? I don't see that happening. Maybe you're right. Maybe you guys should start opening up communications with them?
Might help to be on speaking terms. Then you can find out their intentions. Won't have to speculate and worry about things that may not be happening,
pelsar
(12,283 posts)hamas members are constantly arrested in the west bank by both the IDF and PA security services. Hamas is following the same plan they had in gaza and everyone knows it. They slowly build up their organization, acquire weapons create plans and when the time is right, they simply kill all the opposition…Gaza being the example of how to do it (the threw people off buildings, massacred whole families, etc).
its not a secret…. and everyone knows their intentions, religious fanatics are very honest about themselves and their beliefs. They don't have to be asked because they announce it loud and clear over and over again. They want a theocratic govt with all of israel as the goal, its a religious belief, there isn't much room for compromise with religious fanatics, god doesn't allow for that.
and we did start to "leave them alone"…that was what the oslo agreement was all about, we started to pullout, they started self govt, they brought in their exiled leader arafat, who quickly became their dictator and our busses and restaurants started blowing up
____
this is a very very very messy place…..every failure costs actual lives, as well as ruined families….some failures are worst than others, and we don't have the option of an "undo"
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Unintelligible. That's what you are. 
shira
(30,109 posts)Solves that problem.
When u questioned her, she pulled up lame and stated that both sides will have to police Jerusalem peacefully; a total contradiction to what she previously stated.
The good news is that she at least tried to answer a few questions. Usually, there's no response to such questions when our opponents here realize something's wrong with their beliefs. That's progress!
pelsar
(12,283 posts)as much as she believes in her solution, she changed it as i brought up new information……that in itself gets my respect.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Really. I can barely get the gist of what your trying to throw out. Never on subject. Ever evolving.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)if you propose a solution that was already tried and failed... why try it again and again and again, knowing full well each time it fails lives are lost?
You've proposed several solutions and none of them are complete or have been tried before, all failed.
You didn't know that hamas is in the west bank, or what their plans are (they're pretty clear about that)
at one point you even suggested that an international force occupy the "international areas".....assuming the "people" would accept that occupation, but you don't say why
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You don't care about them. Nothing you will propose will be in their best interests.
And you are barely understandable.
I'm not making that up.
You never stay on topic, ever.
You should read what you post out loud to see if you are getting your points across.
Have a wonderful day!
pelsar
(12,283 posts)I don't claim to care how they live...only the part of their society that affects me
its you who are the hypocrite, because you claim you "care"
you don't really care how they actually live, the actual Palestinian, you really don't care if they hang homosexuals, limit women's rights, etc. Your only concern is that their leader/king/dictator be of the proper genes to rule them.
correct me if i am wrong, but your fine if hamas rules them, if abbas as a dictator rules them...in fact you believe however they get in power or retain their power is ok with you, just as long as they have the proper blood line.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm fine if they have self determination and freedom.
You're the one who doesn't care about them, so why do you care if I care about them. They are the least of your concern.
All your talk about genes and bloodlines just shows your bigotry. I never said anything of the sort.
This is why I say you make absolutely no sense.
And stop trying to bully me by calling me names, it's weak sauce, hombre.
Punctuation would help me figure out what you're talking about.
Reviewing before you post might help too.
shira
(30,109 posts)...in Palestine. So long as Hamas enjoys their own self-determination, you're all good with that.
I can only assume you and your like-minded friends are fine with the way Hamas will rule a future Palestine. It's not like ANY of you bitch, moan, or whine about the way they do business NOW against the Palestinians they oppress daily.
How am I wrong?
Be clear.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Why are YOU pretending that you care how the Palestinians are treated by anyone? Just to try to take attention away from the many human rights abuses Israel is guilty of? Not playing. Thanks for inviting me. You hate them, demonize them, and now pretend you want to 'protect' them from Hamas. Yeah right.
shira
(30,109 posts)I never see you or your colleagues here, or SJP for that matter, advocating for the rights of Palestinians YOU say you care so much about, especially those suffering under Arab regimes in Gaza, the W.Bank, Lebanon, etc.
So why would I expect you to care MORE for them once the Palestinians have their own state? I don't expect you "pro-Palestinian" folks to raise anymore fuss in the future than you do now about their utter lack of civil rights under their theocratic fascist leadership.
With pro-Palestinian friends like you supposedly advocating for their rights, Palestinian gays, women, christians, and blacks don't need enemies.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It may give their society a chance to progress. Hard to move forward when you have somebody's boot heel on your neck, cutting off your air supply.
Once they are officially in control of their own state, we can talk about how to help them move forward as a nation. Not our job to write their constitution for them and make their decisions. If we disapprove we can speak out against the abuse along with the abused. We should not try to dominate anyone.
shira
(30,109 posts)...Saudi Arabia, Syria, Libya, Jordan, etc.
Any day now their societies will progress.
Any day..
I call bullshit on you guys. You're just as silent about the civil rights of oppressed people in those countries. The problem is they NEED westerners to speak up for them and against their regimes. They can't do it themselves in a closed society where they REALLY pay for criticizing the folks in charge.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You want to keep them down and I understand that clearly.
Why are you bring those other countries into it?
You never stay on subject.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I mean this is my fantasy, so one person one vote.
shira
(30,109 posts)Hamas won the equivalent of control of the Congress and Senate, but not the presidency. Hamas took that as a green light to take over all Gaza for themselves.
Your peeps and homies for BDS and 1-state have been silent ever since about Hamas' oppression of the Gazan population, making their lives more miserable under their theocratic rule than under Fatah's. Why the silence? I thought you guys cared about Palestinian rights. That's what you always say.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)My peeps and homies?? Please don't patronize me, it's absurd. Slightly racist too, but I've come to expect that.
Do you really think that's how black people talk?? That's pretty old school. Did you learn nothing from the Zimmerman trial?
Peeps and homies!! LMAO!! That was priceless!!
That's it, that's all I can take today, I can't stop laughing at you. Peeps and homies, indeed.
Bless your heart.
shira
(30,109 posts)Palestinians are worse off and you couldn't care less.
What's priceless is you going off about slightly racist old school patronizing banter when you can't find a damned thing wrong with supporting a BDSM that boycotts > 99% of all Jews.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'd maybe think about it. But since I know you will never be able to back up your 99% claim.. I keep ignoring it.
You just make up your own statistics and Expect everybody to accept your numbers. No thanks, not playing that game.
shira
(30,109 posts)...from reliable sources. And by reliable, I mean reliable.
I'm just curious to know when the results come back showing it's around 99% what your excuse will then be for supporting a movement that alienates and boycotts > 99% of the entire Jewish world.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You do realize that don't you? Please tell me you know when you are making things up.
shira
(30,109 posts)That figure isn't even debatable against a 1-stater anti-zionist BDS'er like his opponent, Illan Pappe.
A single state means the dismantling of the State of Israel. The adherents of this idea should say this loud and clear. You cannot walk around on a tiptoe and wrap it in a million disguises. What is up for discussion on the table the existence of the State of Israel. Nothing else. If anybody here has found the way how to convince six million Israelis to dismantle the State of Israel for which five generations had fought, I raise my hat to them.
http://www.countercurrents.org/pappe110607.htm
If you're not sure about Uri Avnery, ask your new friend here "Israeli". He's leftwing, leads a peace movement, is definitely not anti-Palestinian, he's adamantly against the occupation and settlements, but he'd be boycotted along with the most rightwing zionists by the BDS'ers. He knows that practically no Jews are anti-zionists for the destruction of Israel in favor of a majority Arab-state.
Here he is from 2009...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/29/opinion/29iht-edletters.1.19783258.html?_r=0
Here's Avnery disagreeing with Palestinian Sari Nusseibeh:
http://palestine-mandate.com/uri-avnery-on-sari-nusseibeh-and-the-two-state-vs-one-state-solution
This isn't bullshit.
I'm still waiting on my other sources to come through.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Remember. Thats 99 percent of 100 world wide.
shira
(30,109 posts)...for reasons given by Avnery himself in those quotes.
96% of American Jews believe Palestinians should:
"...be required to recognize Israel as a Jewish state in a final peace agreement"
http://www.ajc.org/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=7oJILSPwFfJSG&b=8479755&ct=12476755#sthash.yknIIsbg.dpuf
If you're thinking about the other 4%, there are zionist and post-zionist jews here at DU who don't believe recognition of a Jewish state is necessary. So the other 4% are not automatically antizionists.
US and Israeli Jews make up > 80% of the world's entire population of Jews.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That was the subject of the discussion.
You said that by supporting BDS one is boycotting 99% of Jews. I said that is bullshit.
99.9% you said. Nope. Still fake numbers.
Now you bring up what Jews want Palestinians to recognize if there is to be any peace agreement.
What are you even talking about?
I'm just waiting for proof on that 99 percent number so you can show me how ignorant I am, I guess.
shira
(30,109 posts)...and want Palestinians to recognize Israel as such? That means they're not anti-zionist. At most, 4% of American Jews are anti-zionist. But as I wrote previously, that's a very high estimate.
You still don't understand?
And you don't believe Avnery's 99.99% figure either? Think he's mistaken, lying....or what?
So far, at worst, it looks like > 82% of the world's population of Jews are around 98% opposed to antizionism.
========
And btw, I'm still waiting for my sources to come through. I'm doing a little digging and waiting for some emails and replies back.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And BDS is a boycott of Israel (especially the occupied territories) until such time as it complies and ends the unjust occupation. I'm sure 99 percent of Jews aren't in support of the occupation. Some Jews support BDS. That why I know that the 99 percent of Jews world wide figure is nonsense and hyperbole.
It's okay Shira, we all make mistakes.
If you want to delete or edit I won't tease you anymore.
shira
(30,109 posts)I think you're confusing a few things. Avnery himself is very much against the occupation AND he supports a limited boycott on settlement products. However, he doesn't go so far as to say he wants to see Israel destroyed, 1-state, etc. He's been involved in these affairs all his life, so on this 99.99% he really does know what he's talking about and certainly has no reason to make stuff up. You'll note no one even tries to call him out for BS whenever he says it, and he does so often in public speeches and in print. It's a very rare bird of a Jew who says he/she wants Israel gone and replaced by an Arab-majority state.
If you don't believe me, simply ask Pelsar and "Israeli" here how many Jews they know in Israel who wouldn't mind seeing Israel dismantled and replaced by one state that's majority-Arab ruled.
Put it this way, it's not easy quoting from Israeli Jews holding such a view. They're incredibly rare.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You're saying that's what BDS is all about but it's not.
shira
(30,109 posts)That means an end to Israeli sovereignty. And the only way that will ever be achieved is through war. Jews won't allow it to happen out of a sense of survival.
As Uri Avnery wrote:
We want to change very many things in this country. We want to change its historical narrative, its commonly held definition as "Jewish and democratic." We want to end occupation outside and discrimination inside. We want to build a new framework in the relations between the state and its Arab-Palestinian citizens. But you cannot ignore the basic ethos of the vast majority of the citizens of Israel. 99.99% of the Jewish public do not want to dismantle the state.
There is an illsusion that you can achieve this by outside pressure. Would outside pressure force this people to give up their state? I suggest a very simple test. Think for a moment about your neightbors at home, colleagues at work, fellow students. Would any of them give up the state because somebody outside demands it? Pressure from Europe, even pressure from the White House? Short of a decisive military defeat on the battlefield, nothing will induce Israelis to give up their state. And if Israel is militarily defeated, our debate will become irrelevant anyway.
Maybe we're talking past each other. I'm specifically pointing to Jews who call for the outright destruction of the state of Israel (whether peacefully or not) and its replacement by an Arab-majority ruled regime. It is THOSE Jews who are so extremely rare as to be miniscule in numbers.
So let's be clear here who the 99.9% are vs. the 0.1%, okay?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Okay Shira.
shira
(30,109 posts)Here's Norman Finkelstein, who is extremely anti-Israel and supports BDS:
I mean we have to be honest, and I loathe the disingenuous. They don’t want Israel. They think they are being very clever; they call it their three-tier. We want the end of the occupation, the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever because they know the result of implementing all three is what, what is the result?
You know and I know what the result is. There’s no Israel!
This dishonesty pisses Uri Avnery off as well as Finkelstein.
By no means are either one of them Zionist apologists, but they're sick of the bullshit posturing.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I don't care what this guy says either.
BDS is nonviolent.
BDS worked for South Africa and should be tried again.
If ending the occupation ends Israel, it shows that there were plenty of problems in Israel to begin with.
I don't see how ending a violent military occupation against a civilian population can end a nation, and you can't explain it without bullshitting, so whatever.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 9, 2013, 08:12 AM - Edit history (1)
....to reason.
It's not that ending the occupation will end Israel. That's not the argument. It's that 1-state with an Arab majority is impractical, absurd, and dangerous. The BDS one-state vision of an Arab majority taking over is what 99.99% of Jews are against. Not the end of the occupation and settlements. The vast majority of Jews (and even rightwing Jews) are for a 2-state solution that would end the occupation. Avnery explained very eloquently why a 1-state solution wouldn't work. His opponent had no answers for it.
Second: If it were possible, is it a good idea.
Third: Will it bring a just peace.
About the first question, my answer is clear and unequivocal: No, it is not possible.
Anybody who is rooted in the Israeli-Jewish public knows that this public's deepest aspiration - and here it is permissable to make a genralization - the far far deepest aspiration is to maintain a state with a Jewish majority, a state where Jews will be masters of their fate. This takes precedence over any other wish and aspitaration, it takes precedence even over wanting to have a Greater Israel.
You can talk of a Single State from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River, define it as bi-national or supra-national - whatever the term used, in practice it means the dismantling of the State of Israel, destruction of all that was built for five generations. This must be said out loud, without any evasions. That is exactly how the Jewish public sees it, and certainly also a large part of the Palestinian public. This means the dismantling of the State of Israel. I am a bit disturbed by the fact that these words are not said explicitly.
We want to change very many things in this country. We want to change its historical narrative, its commonly held definition as "Jewish and democratic." We want to end occupation outside and discrimination inside. We want to build a new framework in the relations between the state and its Arab-Palestinian citizens. But you cannot ignore the basic ethos of the vast majority of the citizens of Israel. 99.99% of the Jewish public do not want to dismantle the state.
There is an illsusion that you can achieve this by outside pressure. Would outside pressure force this people to give up their state? I suggest a very simple test. Think for a moment about your neightbors at home, colleagues at work, fellow students. Would any of them give up the state because somebody outside demands it? Pressure from Europe, even pressure from the White House? Short of a decisive military defeat on the battlefield, nothing will induce Israelis to give up their state. And if Israel is militarily defeated, our debate will become irrelevant anyway.
The Palestinian People want a state of their own, too. This is needed in order to satisfy their most basic aspirations, the restoration of their national pride and the healing of their trauma. Even the Hamas leaders with whom we spoke want it. Those who think otherwise engage in daydreams. There are Palestinians who speak of a Single State, but for most of them this is simply a code word for the dismantling of Israel. And even they know it is an utopia.
There are those who delude themselves that if they speak of a bi-national state, that would frighten the Isralis so much that they will immediately consent to the creation of a Palestinian State at the side of Israel. But the result will be the opposite. This frightens the Israelis, that's true - and pushes them into the arms of the right-wing. This arouses the sleeping dog of ethnic cleansing. About this I agree with Ilan: this dog is sleeping, but it is still there.
All over the world, the trend is opposite: not the creation of multi-national states but on the contrary the division of states into national units. This week the elections in Scotland were won by a party seeking to separate from Britain. The French-speaking minority in Canada is always hovering on the point of secession. Kosovo is about to become independent of Serbia. The Soviet Union broke into pieces, and Chechnia seeks to separate from Russia. Yugoslavia fell apart. Cyprus fell apart. The Basques want independence. In Sri Lanka there is a civil war, as in Sudan. In Indonesia the seams are coming apart in a dozen places.
There is no example in the world of two different peoples voluntarily agreeing to live in one state. There is no example in the world, except for Switzerland, of a really functioning bi-national or multi-national state. And the example of Switzerland, which has grown for hundreds of years in a unique process, is the exception which proves the rule.
After 120 years of conflict, after a fifth generation was born into this conflict on both sides, to move from total war to total peace in a Single Joint State, with a total renunciation of national independence? This is total illusion.
How is this supposed to be implemted in practice? Ilan did not talk about it. This worries me. I suppose it should look like this: The Palestinans will give up their independence struggle and their wish for a national state of their own. They will announce that they want to live in a Single Joint State. After that state is created, they would have to struggle in its framework for their civil rights. Many good people around the world will support that struggle, as they did in the case of South Africa. Israel will be boycotted. Israel will be isolated. Millions of refugees will return to the country, until the wheel turns a full circle and the Palestinians assume power.
If that was possible at all, how much time would it take? Two generations? Three genrations? Four generations? Can anybody imagine how such a state would function in practice? An inhabitant of Bil'in paying the same taxes as an inhabitant of Kfar Sava? Inhabitants of Jenin and of Netanya together formulating a constitution for the state? The inhabitants of Hebron and the Hebron settlers serving side by side in the same army, the same police, obey the same laws? Is this realistic? This is not realistic today, nor would it be realistic tomorrow.
There are those who say: It already exists. Israel alreay rules one state from the sea to the river, you only need to change the regime. So, first of all: Tthere is no such thing. There is an occupying state and an occupied territory. It is far easier to dismantle a settlement, to dismantle settlements, to dismantle ALL the settlements - far easier than to force six million Jewish Israelis to dismantle their state.
No, the Single State would not come about. But let us ask ourselves - should it somehow be erected, would that be a good thing? My answer is: absolutely not.
Let's try to imagine this state - not as ideal creation of the imagination, but as it might be in reality. In this state the Israelis will be dominant. They have an enormous dominance in nearly all spheres: standard of living, military power, level of education, thechnological capacity. Israeli per capita income is 25 times - 25 times! - that of the Palestinians, 20,000 dollars per year compared to 800 Dollars a year. In such a state the Palestinians will be "cutters of wood and hewers of water" for a long, long time.
It will be occupation by other means, a disguised occupation. It will not end the historical conflict, but just move it to a new stage.
Would this solution bring about a just peace? In my view, exactly the opposite. This state would be a battlefield. Each side will try to take over a maximum of land. Bring in a maximum number of people. The Jews would fight by all possible means in order to prevent the Palestinians from gaining a majority and taking power. In practice, it would be an Apartheid state. And if the Arabs do become a majority and seek to gain power democratically, there would start a struggle which might reach the scale of a civil war. A new version of 1948.
Also those who support this solution know that this struggle would last several generations, that a lot of blood might be shed and that there is no knowing the result. It is an utopia. In order to achieve it, you need to replace the people - perhaps the two peoples. To produce a new kind of human being. This is what the Communists tried to do, in the early years of the Soviet Union. Also the founders of the Kibbutz. Unfortunately, you can change many things, but humans don't change their basic nature.
Precisely a beautiful utopia can bring about terrible results. In the vision of "The Wolf lying down with the Sheep" there would be needed a new sheep every day. The Two State Solution is the only practical solution, the only one which is within the bounds of reality. It is ridiculous to say that this idea was defeated. In the most important sphere, the sphere of consciousness, it is growing ever stronger.
I don't know why you insist that your worst nightmares will come to fruition if the occupation ends. I don't care if there is a one state or two state solution. Just that the occupation ends and ends soon. And I want justice for the displaced and oppressed. I think that supporting BDS will help bring this about. I'm not certain but I think it's possible that BDS in combination with other methods will ensure that the world takes the plight of the Palestinian people seriously and help them to end this multigenerational imprisonment of the Palestinian people.
I also don't trust your sources because you have an agenda that doesn't include the liberation of the Palestinian people from this oppressive state. The opinions of the world are shifting in favor of the Palestinian people and I think that's a good thing.
You can say whatever you want, but I stand by my position that I don't care how it's solved ( one state vs. two state) just that it gets done sometime this decade. We don't need to leave this mess to our children to solve when we can do it ourselves now with less pain. The longer it goes on the worse it is.
You have no real solution, just complaints about how bad it will be when it gets solved. You are not serious about anything but misdirection, and trying to cause confusion. It's not gonna to work because my positions are too simple.
I've enjoyed our discussion.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 9, 2013, 11:54 AM - Edit history (1)
Is your plan for Israel to evacuate every last inch across the green line in hopes there will be peace as a result? Israel evacuated every last inch of Gaza and got more war. What makes you think another pullout will end the conflict or result in peace?
Let's say Israel evacuates every last inch over the green line, uprooting and sending all 350,000 settlers back into Israel. They cede all rights to the Western Wall and Dome of the Rock area...by far the holiest site on earth to Judaism.
Rockets start landing in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem as a result. They claim the refugees' rights are still being violated if they're not allowed into Israel. The war is still on and many more lives will be lost. It's still Israel's fault, right? You'd support more "resistance" against Israel for the rights of millions of refugees to then pour into Israel.
Is that what you have in mind or do you have a better idea?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Have you been reading the Left Behind series lately?
I'm one for thinking that after a period of instability things will settle down. If those remaining behind the green line want to stay there I don't see why they can't, they will just have to be under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian government, just as the Palestinians remaining in Israel will be under the jurisdiction of Israel. If they don't want to become Palestinian citizens then they will have to work something out with the Palestinian government. Those living on land proven to have been unlawfully settled will have to pay the owners for the land or move. They may have to sue the Israeli government if they paid them for the land to get their money back. This is how things happen in real life. You don't get to take what's not yours an keep it forever, eventually the bill will come due.
It's time to settle up with the people who have been stolen from and displaced and oppressed.
The world is not going to give another 40 years to figure things out, the time to do it is now.
I do support the right of return, and I don't care about your fears. You drive people from their homes they have a right to return to their property. You don't get to keep that for free, if they died, the property belongs to their children, and they must be given their property back.
As for the holy sites, I don't give a crap about any damn holy sites in the entire world.. Any!!
I am an atheist!!!! You do understand that I think that all of your religion is superstition and woo. It's ridiculous to fight over imaginary things. I don't care I don't care I don't care!!! You can blow up all of the religious sites in the world and build malls and I'd not give a damn. I'd only care about the art and history that was lost.
Stop stealing and you won't have this problem. Return stolen property and give people their stuff back and you will stop being called thieves.
Now, don't you think we've gone off subject for long enough? Oh yeah, try some extemporaneous writing, I'm tired of you trying to use other peoples words to make your case. You can do it yourself if you try hard enough. I don't want it read about what some old Israeli guy thinks about the Palestinians. Waste of time, and I read pretty fast, but Lordy Lordy, it bores me to death reading the same thing written by several people. It like they all got together and decided what narrative to put out there to fool the world. It's not working. It's doing the opposite.
Now to get back to the subject at hand. I think it was Hamas has the right to build tunnels?
Yes, I agree, Hamas has the right to build tunnels.
shira
(30,109 posts)I thought you were different, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt.
There's simply nothing to discuss with someone who...
a) cannot let facts, reason, or logic penetrate her religious beliefs about I/P and the Arab/Israeli conflict overall
b) gives a pass to Palestinian terrorism, antisemitism, genocidal incitement (rock throwing at civilians, including children)
c) says she cares about the rights of Palestinians, but only if "zionists" can be blamed. Otherwise she doesn't give a FF about palestinian rights throughout the rest of the mideast
d) proves to be prejudiced when ignoring Israeli virtues, overstating Israeli sins while at the same time overstating Palestinian moderation, and ignoring Palestinian sins
e) believes Palestinians are victims who cannot be blamed for anything, who lack agency for their actions...the soft, condescending bigotry of low (no) expectations
==========
What really sticks out from our latest conversations is when I brought up history and the fact that Jews would be endangered living as a minority within an Arab-majority Palestinian state. You said the world wouldn't let anything happen to the Jews of a future Palestine in such a scenario. I wonder if you really, truly believe that because the world doesn't care now for Palestinian gay, women, christian, and and black victims in Gaza or the W.Bank. What makes you think the world would do anything to intervene for Jews? Why should Jews be protected anymore than the women, christians, gays, and blacks of Palestine? Seems to me you're just willfully and deliberately naive. Like some religious belief....I don't know.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The things you describe I read in a series of books about the apocalypse.
Your living in a nightmare.
You have never had a good word to say about Palestinians. To you they are all violent terrorists bent on destruction.
You forget how terribly they have been fucked over by your government that you defend so gracelessly.
Spewing venom on a daily.
This is why you'd side will lose in every possible way. You refuse to see them as human or a good as you.
You are wrong.
shira
(30,109 posts)I do have a problem, however, with the militant religious fanatics and haters who want the Jews dead or gone.
I know you see all Palestinians as the same, from Hamas to the most secular and liberal Palestinians, so that's why you see my criticism as a condemnation of all Palestinians.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You only like Palestinians who think like you do. Anyone else is a militant, terrorist, bent on the destruction of Israel, or wants to kill all Jews. Those that support the Palestinians like me, are treated the same. You have even accused me of supporting the murders of Jewish babies, and grandmothers.
This is why your side us losing. All you know how to do is attack, attack, attack, you never concede the fact that....
These people are being stolen from and displace still, even as I am typing this message, the state of Israel is readying to destroy a couple of Bedouin villages ( whose villagers are citizens of Israel) to build more ' housing'.
What's up with that?
Can you defend the destruction of homes??
Can you defend the fact that many villi ages on territory not annexed by Israel have been destroyed to build settlements??
Is anybody going to apologize to those people?? Pay them for their land and structures that were destroyed? Pay the rent to the Palestinians for the time Israel has been using their land for their own purposes??
Pay what you owe first, then you can talk shit about the people you stole from.
I don't trust the words of thieves. Thieves lie and steal.
shira
(30,109 posts)You're out of the mainstream, not me.
As for Bedouin Israeli Arabs, what's it to you? I mean, it's not as though you care about the internal politics of Gaza or the W.Bank where women, christians, gays, and blacks are treated like shit. So why care about the internal politics of Israel? I'm looking for consistency from you guys and I see nothing but hypocrisy, prejudice, and double-standards.
But here's a video for you from a Bedouin farmer to watch. I'll give you a pop quiz afterwards, so pay attention:
bravenak
(34,648 posts)What you think this is, high school? If you were my teacher, I'd drop that class.
When I say your side is losing, I mean the public relations war. Your sides appears to be stealing land on a regular basis unapologetically. Everybody is noticing. Do you read any news that's not tailor made for "explainers" like your self? If you did you'd notice it yourself. Even John Kerry is noticing the illegitimate settlements and implying that settling may contribute to a third intifada? If you need links I'll provide them, but you can even find some things here on DU.
By speaking on the Bedouins I'm just proving that you don't give a shit about any Palestinians, or any other race.So you can stop trying to pretend that I'm the one who doesn't give a shit. You know what's happening is wrong and illegal but you never speak out against any of the wrongdoings of your favorite nation state. And I find it to be terribly racist, and you mention black people to me, like there aren't rally's in Israel where Jews scream " nigger go home" in English to African immigrants. Do you want to talk about the racist rally's in Israel where the call Jewish women who marry black men nigger lovers??
Let's talk about that. I saw it here on DU. I could find it for you, but I know you saw it yourself. Want me to get it for you?
What about the way the religious authorities(or whatever the are) separate women from men on busses, and that bullcrap at the wailing wall where there is also sexual segregation and male privilege. What's up with that? Why can't the women sing and why do they have to protest? Sounds like Israel has a problem with religious fundamentalism too. Call me when you all move out of your glass house. I'll help you get treatment for your cut up feet.
shira
(30,109 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm an atheist. I have no religion. Maybe you mean you? That must be it. It's confusing dealing with religious fanatics, indeed.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)we'll make this really really simple:
I'm fine if they have self determination and freedom.
if hamas rules (take control away from the Palestenian elected government, like they did in gaza with guns)....is that included in your definition of self rule and freedom
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The people will elect the leaders in my fantasy land. By voting.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)I live in the real world, no fantasies are allowed....when politics uses fantasies as a base for policy people are killed and others lives are made miserable
if your political view is based on fantasies, then i would say you must live in a very wonderful and simple world
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)you've been pumping this what if Hamas takes over the West Bank scenario for literally years
considering that it could seem that you're against a Palestinian state in the West Bank at this time?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)have you forgotten all about gaza before the pullout? here let me remind you of a few choice "left ideas before Israel left gaza......
Israel has to do the "big thing"
Israel has to destroy settlements and leave gaza
Israel has to make the first move
and the naive beliefs....
Hamas wont take over gaza because once israel leaves they will have self rule and the "people will decide"
Once israel leaves they will stop shooting because they (PA) will have to worry about their own people and life will get better, and then when hamas did take over, they were supposed to change their beliefs all of a sudden and become "moderates"
...and then peace will come....
Hamas taking over gaza? you had the same exact attitude then as you do about the west bank
do you not know that hamas members are arrested constantly in the west bank, both via the PA and the IDF?
________________
tell me one reason what will stop hamas from taking over the west bank....Abbas is a dictator, just as Assad is, just as Mubarak was, as Kaddafi
well?
i assume your aware at the cost of having hamas in control in gaza, both towards the Palestenians and the Israelis..but then again, its clear that, that is not really relevant in your world view...at least she is honest about her fantasyland opinion
btw...hamas popularity in the westbank is growing, not that you understand what that really means in terms of people who actually have to live under a real theocratic govt
http://www.jpost.com/Features/Front-Lines/Hamass-star-rising-in-the-West-Bank
and i do find it fascinating how its basically irrelevant to you and others here (hamas taking over gaza)....my only possible conclusion is that your worldly view of land ownership and politics is based on genetics and has nothing to do with how people actually live.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)are you for or against a Palestinian state?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)against all dictatorships, theocratic govts etc.
I believe all non western democratic states are illegal, immoral and have no right to exist. Those that do today, have to be accepted, but there is not moral reason to accept any new dictatorships.
therefore, if the Palestenian state will come in to being and not be a western democracy than i am against it, if it will be a democracy then i am for it. That means have the democratic institutions in place BEFORE they can declare statehood.
clear enough?
now your turn:
do you believe a hamas lead theocratic govt in the west bank is something you can and will support
a simple yes or no will suffice
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)The current isolation of Gaza has contributed to that
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Last edited Thu Nov 7, 2013, 09:46 AM - Edit history (1)
if the Palestenains get their "independence" and hamas just does a redo gaza, with guns....or hamas goes to ramallla and simply removes abbas
or they have a elections (as they did in gaza) and hamas instead of boycotting them wins..as they did in gaza, and they take control that way....the PA is corrupt now as it was in gaza in 2005
________
who precisely is going to stop them?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)so once again are you in favor of a Palestinian state?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)in case you missed it,(history 101) are more stable than dictatorships,
western democracies, because they actually allow voting in on a regular basis, the people get to change the govt when they decide its time for a change, thereby being able to express themselves
democracies tend to keep the religious fanatics from taking control and turning it into a theocratic state
the elected officials actually have to take care their citizens and allow for freedom of expression....which means play nice with your neighbors
do you not know this information?
___
but it was i who asked you...what or who will stop hamas from taking over, since you claim they can't
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)so with that as a pretty much forever possibility no matter how remote are you for or against a Palestinian state?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)there have been some spectacular failures to democracies...germany, lebanon (though its foundation was poor)..but if we look at history...we find that democracies that have citizen participation tend to keep out the religious extremists....have a far better record of taking care of their citizens, of playing nice with their neighbors
and of course unlike egypt, unlike gaza, you don't have elections before the foundations of a participatory democracy are well established......
whereas dictatorships, by their very definition, their very foundation are evil, something apparently you don't find so horrible
well? your turn, to answer the question:
what is going to keep hamas out, as per your claim for the future State, which as far as you are concerned can be a dictatorship
pelsar
(12,283 posts)how about a yes or no..as per your own question:
is there any kind of Palestenian govt would make you say it was a mistake? (an idi aimin kind of dictator?) hamas taking over and recreating gaza in the west bank?
or is the only thing relevant to you is that the Palestenians rule themselves and how they do it is of no concern to you and is not anybody's business no matter what is the result, no matter how cruel their govt is to their own or how many rockets, mortars they launch on israel.
option 2, the bravenak attitude:
its my fantasy solution, don't bother me with reality
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)why else the syrupy "would you let them do this to themselves" and the answer is yes, just as any other country chooses it's leaders some are good some are bad, but it's paternalistic at best and the second time I'll use this word Machiavellian at worst f to claim otherwise, that they shouldn't be allowed self determination for their own good-rather like 19th century colonists attitudes towards the natives, need guidance and strict rule for their own good -sheesh
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:06 PM - Edit history (8)
as far as i'm concerned they can kill all of their dwarfs, lock their females in cages and feed them bananas if that is how the controlling party wants to govern and apparently you agree with me on this point. So at least you have finally made it clear that all your "huffing and puffing about human rights is nothing but a means to and end. (Hell, if the Palestenians kill their orphans to sell off their organs, to finance a casino, your ok with that as long as they do it to themselves)
however, i believe such a govt would be unstable and immoral and given its proximity to large israeli populations as well as the large quantities of weapons available, i believe a civil war there an "arab spring" or just armed resistance would have very very bad affects upon us israeli citizens. as we will get shot at (as what is happening on the syrian border today) as one group or another trys to get us to intervene.... Not to mention the influx of refugees (dwarfs etc)...and uncertainty that that will cause
thats on one level, why i don't agree that anything less than a democracy is acceptable
one the second level, less personal as i explained, i do believe in western civil rights as the base for the modern civilization and don't believe anybody has the right to create a state where such rights do not exist, no matter how many guns the ruling party has or what their genetic make up is.
nor do i make any apologies for it, and yes it is very colonialistic and paternalistic, here we differ since, i believe western civil rights are in fact a right that all citizens of all societies have a right too (right after personal security).....ignoring local indigenous cultures (actually running over them is a better description.)
___
so at least we now know from you, that civil rights, human rights are not really what your concerned with, in fact it has little to do with anything other than a means to an end, a way to demonize israel, (since you believe israel has the right to govern its citizens as it sees fit and treats it population as it sees fit, warts and all).
shira
(30,109 posts)They don't care what happens in Gaza or in an exclusively Arab Palestinian future state, but they say that Jews will be just fine and have nothing to fear should they become a minority in a big one-state Palestine.
The dwarves and women locked in dungeons with the gays and christians.....?
Whatever. So what?
The Jews have nothing to fear in such a state.
Just because our nice progressive friends will remain silent regarding the dwarves, women, christians, blacks, and gays doesn't mean they won't find their voices when it comes to the Jews. Seams reasonable, right?
We can count on their support!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Oh ok.
I have officially changed my mind again. Shira shall rule all disputed territory!! She knows best.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Or is this your version of mean girls?
You can miss me with this ish, you have never once stayed on point in any discussion. Deflect, ignore,divert, and shame is your basic mode of operations.
You are the one with ' something wrong with their beliefs', honey. Buy a mirror. For reals.
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)we are all in a conspiracy, email and IM messages back and forth to each other.
Give me a freaking break.
Take off the tin foil hat and come to realize that people can come up with similar ideas without a conspiracy.
No one is accusing you and others who have similar responses of being in a conspiracy, no do I think you are. Why would you think others who have opposing ideas do?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I never accused you of IM, conspiracy, or email whatevering.
I said you all sound the same and have the same, tired ass talking points.
I don't sound like anyone else, I'm just me.
You sound like pelsar and David, only pelsar gives more detail and data to back up what point he's trying to make, and David usually laughs at me first and attempts to mock me, you are very sure of yourself and just jump right end tell us what we should be thinking.
Shira on the other hand is very unique, half propaganda, half human with feelings, so I like her best.
She seems like she actually cares about people but just needs open that caring up to include all humans. She'd make a good liberal eventually.
But the stuff you all say is the same. That's how I know is it's propaganda and you have all view the same media and came to the same conclusion. Like fix news viewers.
Tin foil hat. Pot meet kettle.
King_David
(14,851 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)can build expansive tunnels, then they obviously have the materials to build houses and infrastructure.
How many of those refugees from 'greater palestine' are the people that actually left in 1947 (whether forced out, left on own or told to leave by arab leaders on the ground) and how many are descendents of them? Why are only Palestinians given perpetual refugee status for their descendents.
There is not going to be a RoR for Palestinians to go back to Israel proper, that is a hopeless goal as it would destroy israel, and only someone who supports one state and wants to see Israel destroyed would support a RoR for Palestinians to Israel proper.
Instead the original refugees should be compensated monetarily by Israel (and any jews that left arab countries and held lands should be compensated by them for the same reasons).
End the refugee status for the descendents of Palestinians, allow them full rights as citizens whatever country they may now reside (and if they wish to migrate to the wB or gaza then so be it)
If Hamas denounced all terror against Israel, and acknowledged Israel's right to exist the people of Gaza would have a lot more support. But until they do, they are subject to their governments stances and actions.
This does not include attacking civilians directly, but it does include a perfectly legal blockade of Gaza.
Oh and the people of Gaza can fish up to 6 nautical miles off of its shore. so they do indeed have access to its fishing grounds.
Beyond that its nautical borders overlap Israel's (And Egypt's). But they have access to their coastal waters to fish (and actually double beyond the international law which is 3 nautical miles)
delrem
(9,688 posts)I guess it makes you feel good, having them under your figurative thumb.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
Thanks for the informing article!
I'm glad we could all agree that the tunnels are an unfortunate consequence of a long term military siege/occupation.
I'll be looking forward to reading more from this Ms. Hass in the future, and thank you for bringing her to my attention.
King_David
(14,851 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Bored with this. If a person lied once never believe anything they say ever ever again? No. This is an opinion piece. OPINION. She is entitled to her opinion.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Or plagiarizing or manufacturing sources from her head doesn't deserve her job ... EVER .
bravenak
(34,648 posts)She has hers too. I suppose she should have her tongue cut out too?
King_David
(14,851 posts)She's entitled to write,parachute,play volleyball or synchronized swimming, nothing she says can be, or deserves to be believed, she is a liar.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Not lies or truth. This is not investigative journalism she's doing right here. And I'm not sure she was lying about what she saw. I've seen things that other people missed before and I've missed things I should have seen. Neither I nor the other person was lying.
I hope this isn't the 'she lied about seeing somebody get kicked during a volatile situation thingy', cause if it is, I need to see the video.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Hamas makes tunnels into israel to facilitate an attack, probably grabbing some dude. Soldier or not, doesn't matter really.
See, if Hamas has the right to dig tunnels to attack Israel, you'd have to agree that Israel is equally within their rights to try and stop them. Or at the very least, refrain from helping them. Right? For example, you wouldn't expect Israel to furnish the building materials, cement, etc that Hamas uses to build these tunnels, right?
Because recently Israel relaxed all of the supply restrictions, the idea was so the Gazans could build something that would benefit their people with it. But you're right, Hamas can do whatever it wants. My issue is when people criticize restrictions on items like cement, etc., on the idea that withholding building supplies hurts the Palestinian economy, infrastructure, etc. It does do that, btw. It definitely hurts the Palestinian public in lots of ways. I am not arguing that.
I don't agree with the logic of demanding cement for humanitarian reasons if it is then used for military reasons against the nation that allowed it in. The tunnels in this case aren't a result of the siege. They are a direct result of the siege being relaxed. When the siege was in place before they didn't have easy access to cement.
This isn't an exercise in justifying oppression. It's an attempt to show you the intractability of even simple aspects of this conflict. Yes, the palestinians are oppressed. Yes, hamas is crazy. Yes, the Israelis don't care about the Gazans for the most part. Regardless, recent history has shown again and again that the more leeway Israel grants Gaza the more they will exploit it to attack Israel. You can see that Israel won't have much incentive to ease restrictions, let alone make painful concessions, if the result is LESS peace?
So, if you have a great answer for this I'm sure everyone would be really excited.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and was shown to be with a day or 2 of the story breaking as Israel said that these tunnels had been under construction for at least 2 years but it had been less than 1 year that Israel had allowed building materials into Gaza, which by the way it immediately cut off
but it does beggar a question -how did Israel know these tunnels had been under construction for that long? This revelation would suggest that Israel has allowed the construction to go and the public announcement was timed to coincide with something else a prisoner release perhaps? The precursor to a larger military response, the run up to Operation Cast Lead started with the 'discovery' of tunnels too
shira
(30,109 posts)I posted this over a week ago...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113449233
It's likely Israel did know the tunnels were going for quite some time. Better to allow Hamas to dig and then blow them up before completion than to do so shortly after the digging begins. That's a far more deflating blow to Hamas.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)For the first time in six years, Israel allowed building materials meant for private projects into Gaza on Sunday.
At least 70 truckloads of cement, gravel and iron passed through the border following a request from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, Raed Fattouh, the Palestinian Authority liaison at the Kerem Shalom crossing, told AFP.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/israel-and-palestine/130922/israel-allows-building-materials-gaza
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)I didn't know that. I don't think it really affects my argument, cement and related supplies are fungible. It doesn't need to be the same exact bags of cement. The point is that it's unreasonable to demand that Israel help Hamas attack it.
It's Hamas' right to build those tunnels if it deems them an appropriate allocation of resources. But not to also demand Israel keep bringing them more cement.
Gaza has no immediate need to continue this war. They aren't being overrun, cleansed, killed or anything. They have a political goal. If they stopped fighting then they wouldn't be fighting Israel anymore. They wouldn't get what they want. But they're not going to get it anyway. Israel isn't going to leave. It's, like, super obvious by this point.
Sooooo... Yup. There's a siege. Did you have a plan or something?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)to build but did nothing-until now?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)It's unimportant. If there was a word that indicated an emergency level of unimportant.
That's this.
I'm guessing you're not going to give me a super idea for Gaza now. No one ever has one. It's hard.
