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Mosby

(16,319 posts)
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 05:46 PM Nov 2013

The blood libel film

For the past several months a campaign has been under way in Israel and around the world, backed by an endless budget, aimed at aggravating the relationship between the State of Israel and the Bedouins. This campaign included the recent release of a propaganda film portraying the expulsion of Bedouins from their land.

The main star of the film is Theodore Bikel, who was recruited for this role mainly because of his past portrayal of Tevye the Milkman in Fiddler on the Roof. The film, in a propagandized play on words, is called Fiddler with no Roof, and that is nothing compared to the film’s content. The Bedouins are portrayed as the victims of the terrible expulsion decree that was issued against the Jews in the dark days of the anti-Semitic Tsarist regime, as described at the plot of Fiddler on the Roof. And a plot is just what it is. Difficult to believe, but the film was produced by Rabbis for Human Rights.

Standing shoulder to shoulder with this film, as usual, is Haaretz, which provides innumerable articles, all with the same angle, all presenting the same position, about the thieving and oppressing state, and about the expelled Bedouins. Freedom of debate and expression has never looked as neglected as it appears in this uniform, Bolshevist perspective of the newspaper for people who all think the same.

The debate over the proper procedure of the settlement of the Bedouins is an important debate. Some say that the Bedouins are nomads, that their entire claim to land ownership is fictitious, while others claim that the state should recognized their claims of ownership even if these are not consistent with recognized registration methods, from the Ottoman period, then the British, and now, of course, the Israeli.

For years the Israeli authorities have been struggling with this issue. On the one hand, the ownership claims have been rejected outright in legal proceedings. In some of the claims, the assertions of “ownership for hundreds of years” were exposed as fraudulent. Aerial photographs from the last century proved that “a settlement that had existed for centuries” had not even existed for a few decades.

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-blood-libel-film/

103 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The blood libel film (Original Post) Mosby Nov 2013 OP
Yemini is right when he says, it is difficult to believe that RHR would produce a blood libel..they Jefferson23 Nov 2013 #1
Great post Jefferson23..... Israeli Dec 2013 #12
Thank you. One line from Levy, says it so well, for me: Jefferson23 Dec 2013 #13
you are welcome ... Israeli Dec 2013 #14
Great links, thanks. It is sad to me because due to their support, the odds are against the Jefferson23 Dec 2013 #15
I'm confused ... Israeli Dec 2013 #24
I was referring to the alleged pro Israeli posters here in the US. Jefferson23 Dec 2013 #32
yeah ... " the alleged pro Israeli posters here in the US " Israeli Dec 2013 #33
K-D is atheist so he's not motivated by his religion. n/t shira Dec 2013 #35
K-D is "special" shira ... Israeli Dec 2013 #41
You were wrong, weren't you? It was a lie to claim K-D is motivated by his religion. shira Dec 2013 #44
So when Israel forcibly removes R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2013 #2
There's nothing stopping any Bedouin from purchasing/leasing land there. n/t shira Dec 2013 #36
If anybody noticed, you didn't answer the question. You just made up your own answer R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2013 #81
The lucky chaps could have been Bedouin buying plots of land themselves. shira Dec 2013 #82
Probably poverty is stoppig them... R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2013 #83
You didn't answer me. I'm waiting. n/t shira Dec 2013 #84
Hope your racism and excuses keeps you warm this Christmas season, shira. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2013 #85
I know these simple questions obliterate your attempts to demonize.... shira Dec 2013 #86
So when Israel forcibly removes R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2013 #87
See, you're incapable of answering the simplest questions that obliterate yr arguments. shira Dec 2013 #88
So when Israel forcibly removes R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2013 #92
Post removed Post removed Dec 2013 #95
This message was self-deleted by its author delrem Dec 2013 #89
Liberals don't demonize a certain ethnic group 24/7/365 like anti-zio BDS liars.... shira Dec 2013 #90
This message was self-deleted by its author delrem Dec 2013 #91
You're lying again. I don't support ethnic cleansing and don't deny anything... shira Dec 2013 #96
This message was self-deleted by its author delrem Dec 2013 #97
So when Israel forcibly removes R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2013 #93
A Zionist attempts to exploit antisemitism and fails, hard. Again. Scootaloo Nov 2013 #3
You obviously didn't read the entire article. n/t shira Nov 2013 #4
I did, in fact Scootaloo Nov 2013 #6
You didn't respond to anything substantive within it. n/t shira Nov 2013 #7
Nope. Scootaloo Nov 2013 #8
Of course not. You have nothing. n/t shira Nov 2013 #9
Those mushrooms last a while, don't they? Scootaloo Nov 2013 #10
This message was self-deleted by its author delrem Dec 2013 #94
Great article! n/t shira Nov 2013 #5
I am glad you are so enthusiastic about the expulsion of the Bedouin... shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #17
Yes, you see Jewish Israeli Nazi racist apartheidists everywhere u turn. shira Dec 2013 #18
You mentioned apartheid again. At least we agree Nelson Mandela was a great man.... shira Dec 2013 #63
Is it shira .... Israeli Dec 2013 #31
Yeah, there are too many lies in all these anti-Israel articles about al-Hiran Bedouins shira Dec 2013 #37
Twilight Zone.... Israeli Dec 2013 #42
You still believe Shulamit Aloni was honest when she claimed Jew-only roads... shira Dec 2013 #43
This message was self-deleted by its author delrem Dec 2013 #11
If anything is a libel, its this article... shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #16
Are u saying Bedouin cannot buy land in Hiran, to live among the Jews there? shira Dec 2013 #19
actually, thats perfectly true shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #20
This message was self-deleted by its author delrem Dec 2013 #21
????? pelsar Dec 2013 #26
hardly special status shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #46
unattractive land? this is really one of the dumbest arguments... pelsar Dec 2013 #50
special laws based on genetics... shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #52
yes it does....and apparently you agree with the concept..... pelsar Dec 2013 #53
do you disagree with the native americans shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #55
we're not there yet.... pelsar Dec 2013 #56
I'm for recognising the traditional rights of native pastoralists... shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #57
how are these natives defined? pelsar Dec 2013 #58
The Israeli definition of a Jew shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #59
I'm not arguing that pelsar Dec 2013 #60
I think that there is a moral difference between... shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #65
all nations and nationalistic movements are built on racism.... pelsar Dec 2013 #70
another dig at post zionism pelsar ... Israeli Dec 2013 #72
actually its a dig against hypocrisy.... pelsar Dec 2013 #99
So to summarise your argument... shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #76
my argument is that your argument for special favors is racism pelsar Dec 2013 #98
I think that you're confused shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #100
your the one that is pro racism pelsar Dec 2013 #101
so is it racist to take land from Bedouin or to let them keep it? shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #102
accept that is racist either way..... pelsar Dec 2013 #103
i can't resist..... pelsar Dec 2013 #28
Israel is so racist they have affirmative action for Bedouins purchasing land.... shira Dec 2013 #29
Thats because Rahat is a Bedouin ghetto shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #47
You'd argue any town Israel builds for the Bedouin is a ghetto.... shira Dec 2013 #48
They've only ever built the one... shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #61
The same could be said of Israeli settlements for religious haredi Jews.... shira Dec 2013 #62
No it fucking couldnt... shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #64
There's practically a lie in every post you've made in this thread.... shira Dec 2013 #66
Now you're just getting desperate shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #67
You're slipping. shira Dec 2013 #68
Now we can all see what a bullshit artist you are... shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #69
You can't stop with the bullshit and lies, can you? shira Dec 2013 #71
So you admit that I didnt say it... shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #73
Your post in #25 of that thread, after all that discussion with Pelsar...... shira Dec 2013 #74
Did I? shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #75
Nothing? shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #77
I don't remember seeing that at the time. Took you awhile but.... shira Dec 2013 #78
I'm inclined to tell you to go fuck yourself... shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #79
You spent a lot of time defending a slanderous, racist article that incited hatred..... shira Dec 2013 #80
confused? pelsar Dec 2013 #51
more about the JNF and land particularly in the Negev azurnoir Dec 2013 #22
Bedouin are buying land in nearby Meitar. So you're spreading lies & hate. n/t shira Dec 2013 #23
Meitar is ILA land shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #25
Israeli Bedouin can buy/lease anywhere. The ILA then compensates the JNF for the land. shira Dec 2013 #27
still not accurate the land transferred to JNF is in the Negev azurnoir Dec 2013 #30
The point is that Israel's non-Jews can purchase/lease anywhere.... shira Dec 2013 #34
unless the JNF owns it and in the case of Hiran or umm al Hiran azurnoir Dec 2013 #38
Huh? What does the JNF have to do with it if the ILA mandates that the land is open.... shira Dec 2013 #39
for the 3rd time the link that explains how it works and how JNF gets land in the Negev azurnoir Dec 2013 #40
The Negev settlements will be covered by admissions committees... shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #45
So you're certain that if any Bedouin want to buy/lease in Hiran, they won't be able to..... shira Dec 2013 #49
its highly unlikely shaayecanaan Dec 2013 #54

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
1. Yemini is right when he says, it is difficult to believe that RHR would produce a blood libel..they
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 06:01 PM
Nov 2013

did not.

Rabbis here in the US agree with RHR too.

Jewish Groups, American Rabbis Call on Israel to Withdraw Bedouin Displacement Plan

Israel’s Bedouin population is in the hearts and minds of American Jewish clergy this week, as 780 rabbis, cantors, and rabbinical and cantorial students have signed a letter demanding that the government of Israel withdraw the Prawer-Begin plan. Under the proposed legislation, an estimated 30,000 to 40,000 Bedouin would be displaced from their homes in the Negev.

“It is precisely because of our deep commitment to the State of Israel and the prophetic values of liberty and justice on which it was founded, that we, as rabbis, are so distressed by the potential for the use of force to resettle Bedouin and destroy their villages,” said Rabbi S. Ayelet Cohen, vice chair of T’ruah, in a press release.

Other North American Jewish groups have issued similar calls, including the Reform and Reconstructionist movements. In recent days, Ameinu, on whose board I sit, has also jumped into the fray: “as Zionists who never forget the eternal bond between our people and the land of Israel, we are extremely sensitive to Bedouin Israelis’ ties to their traditional villages,” its call to action states.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/19/jewish-groups-american-rabbis-call-on-israel-to-withdraw-prawer-begin-plan.html

Yemini: Biography

Ben-Dror Yemini was born in Tel-Aviv to a Yemenite Jewish family.[1] He studied Humanities and History at Tel Aviv University and then pursued a degree in law. After graduation, he worked as an advisor to the Israeli Minister of Immigration Absorption and then became spokesman of the Ministry.[2]

In 1984, he began his career as a journalist.[3] His book Political Punch is a critique of politics and society in Israel. Since 2003, Yemini has been the opinion page editor of Maariv.

Most of his newspaper articles are intended to refute what he regards as anti-Israel claims.[1] He has published articles about the Israeli-Arab conflict in which he examines the issues of genocide, refugees, Palestinian and Arab capital, the status of Israeli Arabs,[4] multiculturalism and the status of women. He argues that "anti-Zionism is politically correct anti-Semitism": the same way Jews were demonized, Israel is being demonized; the same way the right of Jews to exist was denied, the right for self-determination is denied to Israel; and the same way Jews were presented as a menace to the world, Israel is presented as a menace to the world.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben-Dror_Yemini


on edit to add: RHR Awards

Awards

In 1993 RHR received “The Speaker of the Knesset’s Award for the Quality of Life in the Field of Enhancing the Rule of Law and Democratic Values, Protecting Human Rights, and Encouraging Tolerance and Mutual Respect.”

In 2006, RHR was awarded the prestigious Niwano Peace Prize for its efforts to promote peace in an interfaith context.

In 2011 Gandhi Peace Award honored RHR’s Rabbi Arik Ascherman & Rabbi Ehud Bandel.
http://rhr.org.il/eng/about/

Israeli

(4,151 posts)
12. Great post Jefferson23.....
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 03:59 AM
Dec 2013

with regard to Ben-Dror Yemini ......you need to read this :

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/twilight-zone-baron-of-manipulation-1.320636

small taste :

When the substantive arguments are exhausted, the incitement begins; when one doesn't know how to contend with opinions and views, one calls them lies. When one wants to strangle those with other positions, one calls them "baron" and "industry." When the anti-critical atmosphere runs wild, making McCarthyism look like an enlightened movement, all the populist pen-pushers rush in. And when one wants to silence critics, they fabricate accusations.

Yemini has adopted the goal of battling the world's "industry of lies" against Israel. This, of course, is a worthy objective, certainly for propagandists. Yemini is one of the active among them; the baron of the manipulation industry. There is just one little problem: Even this war must be based on truth - a commodity that is superfluous for him and those like him.

And despite it all, on the day that Yemini is silenced or harmed, critical journalists and the left will become the monster that Ben Dror Yemini creates in his febrile brain. He must not be permitted this pleasure. We must not be given this punishment.

On second thought, there's no cause for concern. The left has never lifted a finger against anyone in Israel. That's reserved for the right. Yemini can continue to sling his mud without hindrance.


Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
13. Thank you. One line from Levy, says it so well, for me:
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 12:25 PM
Dec 2013
...none of the facts have ever been refuted despite the efforts of many."


As you know, Levy receives similar treatment here from a few people..it's sad, really.
Yemini on the other hand, is relied upon at DU to bring his alleged clarity to the issue
of the Bedouin...thanks for sharing the OP.

One update I am sure you're already aware of:
Arrests at protest over Israel's Bedouin plan
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/11/arrests-at-protest-over-israel-bedouin-plan-20131130173443568410.html

Israeli

(4,151 posts)
14. you are welcome ...
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 06:32 AM
Dec 2013

re : " As you know, Levy receives similar treatment here from a few people..it's sad, really."

I dont find it sad at all .... I find it amusing .

If they think Gideon Levy and Haaretz are and i quote " the Bolshevist perspective of the newspaper for people who all think the same. " ......makes me wonder what they think of Gideon Spiro and Hagada Hasmalit ....????

ref : http://hagada.org.il/eng/

and the Red Rag Column :

@ http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=62046

Seriously , they think we post zionists are the extreme Left ....they dont have a clue Jefferson23.

Yes I am aware of whats going on ....you would have to be blind deaf and stupid not to be aware of it .





Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
15. Great links, thanks. It is sad to me because due to their support, the odds are against the
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 02:11 PM
Dec 2013

Palestinians..very much so.

Israeli

(4,151 posts)
24. I'm confused ...
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 05:02 AM
Dec 2013

Who do you mean by " their " ?

I was replying to this .. " As you know, Levy receives similar treatment here from a few people..it's sad, really. " ..... and referring to the Diaspora Zionists you have on here .

What kind of support do you think they give us ?

The odds are against the Palestinians right now because we have the most Right wing Gov in our history .... that can change .

Diaspora Zionists dont get to vote in our elections Jefferson23.


Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
32. I was referring to the alleged pro Israeli posters here in the US.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 02:34 PM
Dec 2013

I hope you continue to post here, it has been a pleasure to read your input..very much appreciated.

Israeli

(4,151 posts)
33. yeah ... " the alleged pro Israeli posters here in the US "
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 03:57 PM
Dec 2013

so was I .

They are not " pro Israeli " Jefferson23....they are pro Judaism .

They are motivated by their religion ....and by their guilt .

Israeli

(4,151 posts)
41. K-D is "special" shira ...
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:26 PM
Dec 2013

he is motivated by his own lack of beloning ....he looks to us as the strong ' Jew ' .
He needs us to fulfill his own insecurities .

And you shira ?
Why do you need us ????

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
44. You were wrong, weren't you? It was a lie to claim K-D is motivated by his religion.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 06:13 PM
Dec 2013
he is motivated by his own lack of beloning ....he looks to us as the strong ' Jew ' .
He needs us to fulfill his own insecurities .


And you know this just as you knew K-D was motivated by religion?

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
81. If anybody noticed, you didn't answer the question. You just made up your own answer
Wed Dec 11, 2013, 10:09 PM
Dec 2013

to one not asked.
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
82. The lucky chaps could have been Bedouin buying plots of land themselves.
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 06:49 PM
Dec 2013

There's nothing stopping them as Israeli citizens.

I know you see building a Jewish community in place of a Bedouin one as racist, but tell me....do you think that if Israel built a Druse community or Palestinian Christian one there in place of the Bedouins, would that be as equally racist?

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
83. Probably poverty is stoppig them...
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 08:26 PM
Dec 2013

that and the Israeli government.


I know you see building a Jewish community in place of a Bedouin one as racist...


Most people see it that way, SoS Shira.
 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
85. Hope your racism and excuses keeps you warm this Christmas season, shira.
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 08:51 PM
Dec 2013

The time off you have earned will be a gift to all of us.
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
86. I know these simple questions obliterate your attempts to demonize....
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 08:56 PM
Dec 2013

It's why I ask.

I realize these questions make you uncomfortable, as they challenge your rigid and intolerant "religious" views. I expect fellow liberals to at least attempt to be tolerant and understanding and open to acknowledging when they're wrong.

I get the same silence from religious fundamentalist nutters who have a hard time defending their views, so I'm used to it.

Have a great happy holiday season finding ways to demonize whole groups of people.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
87. So when Israel forcibly removes
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 08:59 PM
Dec 2013

the Bedouin, who are the lucky chaps that are going to take the land?
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
88. See, you're incapable of answering the simplest questions that obliterate yr arguments.
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 09:02 PM
Dec 2013

Last edited Thu Dec 12, 2013, 09:36 PM - Edit history (1)

Here's Lieberman a new Druze village:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4211318,00.html

My hunch is that if this village were in the Negev and Bedouin had to make way for it, you wouldn't be crying your crocodile tears of racism.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
92. So when Israel forcibly removes
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 11:02 PM
Dec 2013

the Bedouin, who are the lucky chaps that are going to take their land?

Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #92)

Response to shira (Reply #86)

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
90. Liberals don't demonize a certain ethnic group 24/7/365 like anti-zio BDS liars....
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 09:05 PM
Dec 2013

Last edited Thu Dec 12, 2013, 09:57 PM - Edit history (2)

....who are busy beavers:

a) comparing the victims of Nazi Germany to the Nazis themselves

b) portraying Israeli mainstream thought and policy as the ideology of the most rabid and extreme Kahanists

c) calling holocaust survivors and refugees seeking asylum racist colonists

d) exploiting the tragedy of apartheid & bastardizing human rights


This isn't rocket science.

Response to shira (Reply #90)

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
96. You're lying again. I don't support ethnic cleansing and don't deny anything...
Fri Dec 13, 2013, 07:13 AM
Dec 2013

1. I don't support killing anyone either, but if the choice is b/w my family being murdered and me killing the perpetrator, that's an easy choice. It doesn't mean I support killing. Same WRT Israeli ethnic cleansing...

2. You wrote previously, and lied when you did it, that Israel guarantees by law a Jewish majority.

Response to shira (Reply #96)

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
93. So when Israel forcibly removes
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 11:05 PM
Dec 2013

the Bedouin, who are the lucky chaps that are going to take their land?


This isn't rocket science.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
3. A Zionist attempts to exploit antisemitism and fails, hard. Again.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 08:51 PM
Nov 2013

It's like Charlie Brown and that damned football.

Know what Yemeni's argument reminds me of?

"Slaveowners treated their slaves great because they were expensive! Besides, their own people sold them into slavery anyway! They did better here than they would have in Africa! You're just racist against white people!"

That, and I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't know what blood libel is. Again, Zionists, words and terms have set meanings, you can't just make 'em up as you shuffle along.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
8. Nope.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 09:24 PM
Nov 2013

Because there's NOT anything substantive in it.

Yemeni starts off by completely misusing the term "blood libel." Off the bat, that's enough for me to dismiss the entire thing as nonsense from someone who probably SHOULD know better. It's blood libel the same way that "Happy Holidays" is an assault on Christianity.

The rest is just special pleading and justification that amounts to a weak attempt at defending the Prawer Plan. Which is something i thought you were against (I admit, could be mistaken on that.)

it's a silly nonsense piece, written, posted, and defended by people who pretty much swear by silly nonsense.

Response to Scootaloo (Reply #10)

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
17. I am glad you are so enthusiastic about the expulsion of the Bedouin...
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:14 PM
Dec 2013

it really reassures me, especially after your various remarks about Ethiopians, Arabs, and your vague equivocations about extremist Kahanist groups, that you are definitely not a racist in any way, shape or form.

I am also utterly persuaded that this attempt by the Israeli government to expel indigenous people from their native lands and resettle them in Soweto-style townships so that Jews can take their place is in no way reminiscent of South African apartheid in any way.

Anyone who says otherwise is a Nazi.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
18. Yes, you see Jewish Israeli Nazi racist apartheidists everywhere u turn.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:40 PM
Dec 2013

Yawn.

I wouldn't be surprised if u feared your own shadow.

The OP shows that this transfer isn't racist and that the professional propagandists crying crocodile tears for the Bedouin live to demonize Jews. If it were up to these anti-Israel, professional fascist liars, the Bedouin would continue to live in absolute poverty, in 3rd world conditions.

You probably missed these parts:


Second, when Hiran was being planned, a little over a decade ago, there were only a few Bedouins there, if any. The move to Umm al-Hiran occurred mainly in the wake of the plans for the new town. Aerial photographs prove this.

In the background a campaign has being going on for a long time, crafted by Haaretz. There have been a lot of baseless claims, but I will make do with just two that were published this week. Oudeh Basharat claimed that Israel was robbing the Bedouins of land in Umm al-Hiran, and immediately called this apartheid. One day later, Prof. Eyal Gross claimed that Bedouins were being evicted from their homes in order to build a Jewish town. When a lie is repeated a thousand times, it becomes fact.

The words transfer and apartheid appeared in the campaign, in order to finger the culprit. This, of course, is the Zionist enterprise. This is what it did in 1948. This is what it is doing in the territories. This is what it is doing to the Bedouins. This is how incitement is created. This is how demonization is done. Haaretz readers have no inkling that Bedouin began to live in Umm al-Hiran only after the initiative to establish Hiran. Is it unreasonable to demand that a law professor know the facts before writing a report?




And from Israel's MFA:

Of the remaining 90,000 that live in encampments or communities that are not zoned, only 30,000 will have to move, most of them a short distance (a few kilometers at most). The other 60,000 will have their homes legalized under Israel's initiative, which will develop their communities and grant the residents property rights.


Back to Yemini:

Fifth, every family in the tribe is entitled to receive nearly a dunam of land. Even a bachelor over 24 is entitled to a plot of land, in preparation for future generations.

Sixth, in addition to the free land, with free infrastructure development, each family also receives monetary compensation for the previous, illegally built house where it lived.

Seventh, and here we’re in for a surprise, most of the tribe – 3,000 of the 4,000 members – actually felt this was a fair arrangement, and they indeed moved to Hura.


Yeah, really racist.

I'll tell you what's racist. It's fabricating these racist claims in order to demonize Jews.
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
63. You mentioned apartheid again. At least we agree Nelson Mandela was a great man....
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 05:52 PM
Dec 2013

You know what was missing in all his writings and speeches about Israel?

He never once accused Israel of apartheid.

Israeli

(4,151 posts)
31. Is it shira ....
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 01:41 PM
Dec 2013

so what do you think about this article ?:

http://972mag.com/prawer-plan-how-the-natives-became-invaders-in-their-own-homes/83052/

The attempt to forcibly resettle a native minority population justifies international interest. If it continues, international intervention will be justified as well.

The desire to finally settle the issue could have been a blessing, were it part of an honest attempt to honor the rights of a native population. But the government’s plan seems to be more about the classic “maximum land, minimum Arabs” formula than about the Bedouin population itself – especially since at least in some cases, Jewish settlements are planned to be built on the sites of evacuated Bedouin homes.

Since last week’s protests, Israeli officials and columnists have been complaining that the Arab leadership and left-wing activists are trying to turn Prawer into “a Palestinian issue” and internationalize what is essentially an internal Israeli issue. The Bedouin are indeed Israeli citizens, but as history has taught us, the only way to defend the rights of an ethnic-native minority is through the mobilization of the international community (and even then, chances of success are slim). Even democracies tend to recognize the rights of natives only after dispossessing them of most of their assets and territories. Only then are books written about their tragic histories and museums built in their honor. The Bedouin are still here. They don’t need a museum, they need their rights.


 

shira

(30,109 posts)
37. Yeah, there are too many lies in all these anti-Israel articles about al-Hiran Bedouins
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:07 PM
Dec 2013

Lies by omission as well as commission.

Israeli

(4,151 posts)
42. Twilight Zone....
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:51 PM
Dec 2013
When the substantive arguments are exhausted, the incitement begins; when one doesn't know how to contend with opinions and views, one calls them lies. When one wants to strangle those with other positions, one calls them "baron" and "industry." When the anti-critical atmosphere runs wild, making McCarthyism look like an enlightened movement, all the populist pen-pushers rush in. And when one wants to silence critics, they fabricate accusations.


http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/twilight-zone-baron-of-manipulation-1.320636

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
43. You still believe Shulamit Aloni was honest when she claimed Jew-only roads...
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 05:39 PM
Dec 2013

Last edited Thu Dec 5, 2013, 06:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Since you can't acknowledge that was a lie, it's hopeless to continue, but...

Ben Dror Yemini exposed the lies of the professional propagandists pretending to show compassion for the Bedouin. He wrote about the outright lies as well as facts that were omitted intentionally to make Israel appear horrifically racist.

And now that you bring up Levy, Yemini also exposed his lies. Levy didn't counter Yemini with anything substantive. For example, Levy admitted there was no front-page story about a dog's death that captured headlines during Cast Lead in 2008-09. Levy used that dog's death to show how a major Israeli newspaper covered that event, while relegating the deaths of tens of Palestinians to page 16. That was a complete and utter lie. It wasn't that Levy just got the date wrong (the dog died years earlier). He tried using that to show that at the height of a major war, a popular Israeli newspaper thought more of a dog than 10's of Palestinians.

He's a fucking joke.

Response to Mosby (Original post)

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
16. If anything is a libel, its this article...
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:08 PM
Dec 2013

There are two allegations that stand out:-

Eighth, Hiran is not designated only for religious Jews, and also not only for Jews. Any Bedouin who wishes to buy land there is invited to do so and is entitled to do so.


Bullshit. Hiran is part of project Wadi Attir by the Jewish National Fund. The same Jewish National Fund that insists that it doesnt have to grant leases to Arabs:-

The JNF, in relation to being an owner of land, is not a public body that works for the benefit of all citizens of the state. The loyalty of the JNF is given to the Jewish people and only to them is the JNF obligated. The JNF, as the owner of the JNF land, does not have a duty to practice equality towards all citizens of the state.


and:-

After setting sail on the sea of lies, it’s worth returning to the solid ground of facts. First, the Bedouin members of the Al-Qian tribe, who are the focus of the current fuss, were transferred to the Yatir region of the Negev decades ago, of their own volition and at their request, due to a dispute with another tribe.


Israeli courts have found to the contrary:-

The Beer Sheva Magistrates' Court ruled that the residents had been given legal permission to live on the land because the tribe of Abu Al Qian was displaced to their current location decades ago at the request of the authorities. However, the Court held that since the state permitted the residents to live there free of charge, the state maintains the authority to reverse that permission through a legal process, and subsequently ordered the eviction. The Beer Sheva District Court dismissed Adalah's appeal on behalf of residents against that judgment.


So an Israeli court has found that the residents are in fact members of the al-Qian tribe whom the state ordered to move there in 1956. I guess the Israeli courts are blood-libel peddling Nazis, along with Haaretz, the Jerusalem Post and Ynet (all of whom have reported that the intended settlement is for national-religious Jews).

What the Bedouin have been offered is resettlement in a designated township (much like the Soweto-style township of Rahat) that the Israeli government has promoted with giddy promises that they will be living in some kind of Disneyfied epcot centre "eco-village":-

http://www.jpost.com/Enviro-Tech/Wadi-Attir-Beduin-eco-village-ready-for-active-stage
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
19. Are u saying Bedouin cannot buy land in Hiran, to live among the Jews there?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:42 PM
Dec 2013

Because that's a lie.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
20. actually, thats perfectly true
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:38 AM
Dec 2013

In any event neither an Arab nor a Jew can buy JNF land, they can only lease it. You did know that didn't you?

Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #20)

pelsar

(12,283 posts)
26. ?????
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 05:53 AM
Dec 2013

watch this:
shall we also discuss the racism involved in the concept of giving the S.Bedouin special status because of their race that Bedouin in the north don't get, that druze don't get or that jews don't get or that the christians don't get?...and some of them have been living in the area longer than the S.Bedouin.

care to discuss it? ..didnt think so

oops i forgot, your not talking to me, since i didn't meet your demands.....

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
46. hardly special status
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 10:01 PM
Dec 2013

The North Bedouin lived on relatively attractive land that Israel confiscated from them in the years from 1948 to 1966.

The South Bedouin live on unattractive land that no one particularly wanted until a few years ago.

As for special status, the Druze mostly had their property rights respected. The Christians with European ties (the Greeks and Armenians) had their property rights respected. The other Arabs and the Bedouin did not.

The Aborigines in Australia still own land in the desert which the whites never bothered stealing from them, as it was so worthless.

The difference, I suppose, is that the whites in Australia would have a hard time justifying the theft of land from Blacks in this day and age.

Whereas Israel is quite happy to have a red hot go.

pelsar

(12,283 posts)
50. unattractive land? this is really one of the dumbest arguments...
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 01:48 AM
Dec 2013

Last edited Fri Dec 6, 2013, 02:56 AM - Edit history (2)

The South Bedouin live on unattractive land that no one particularly wanted until a few years ago.

so if i understand your argument...and feel free to elaborate: because the negev is "unattractive", that means just the citizens who live there with a specific genetics should be allowed to either ignore israeli housing laws and or have special laws created for them, ones based on their genetics.

we will keep this very simple (and ignore you properly rights respected claim for the meantime).

________

lets just say we're clarifying your standard for laws here....Laws based on race are perfectly acceptable to you

(and yes i'm well aware that racial based laws i.e sometimes referred to as affirmative action other time referred to apartheid , is one of the holies of holies)

pelsar

(12,283 posts)
53. yes it does....and apparently you agree with the concept.....
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 06:13 AM
Dec 2013

racial based laws.....

you neglected to answer.....well?

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
55. do you disagree with the native americans
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 06:53 AM
Dec 2013

being permitted to retain a small portion of their traditional lands? I am thinking of the Seminole Indians in Florida in particular.

pelsar

(12,283 posts)
56. we're not there yet....
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 06:58 AM
Dec 2013

we're still clarifying your view that racial based laws are acceptable

its the concept the principle.......apparently you do, but rather than me make the "accusation" i think its much better idea that you simply state it, this way there is no confusion of that specific belief of yours.

and don't you call that a 'diversion' when instead of simply answering a straight forward question...you don't, and ask me a question so that you don't have to answer it?

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
57. I'm for recognising the traditional rights of native pastoralists...
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 08:09 AM
Dec 2013

That is hardly a racist notion. To the extent that Jews are the traditional owners of land (the Samaritans on Mount Gezirim for instance, or the remaining Yemenite Jews in Yemen) I am happy to recognise their rights as well.

pelsar

(12,283 posts)
58. how are these natives defined?
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 09:10 AM
Dec 2013

if someone claims they are native is that enough?

i believe in the US its the "amount of blood" that defines if one is of indian ancestry is that not true?

Blood quantum[edit]
A common source of definition for an individual's being Indian is based on their blood (ancestry) quantum (often one-fourth) or documented Indian heritage. Almost two-thirds of all Indian federally recognized Indian tribes in the United States require a certain blood quantum for membership

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_identity_in_the_United_States

didn't the nazis have the same concept about jew definition
the first anti-Semitic law was promologated with no clear definition of Jew.[18] Finally, the decision was made for three or four Jewish grandparents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_policy_of_Nazi_Germany
____________________________

apparently the "blood line" is used to determine if one is of a certain minority and deserving of special laws. I'm assuming your using the same criteria as what the US uses as well as what the Nazis used (and obviously other societies as well)

so can we conclude that you are for giving special laws to certain groups based on "their blood" lines, that other citizens in the same country do not get?

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
59. The Israeli definition of a Jew
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 10:01 AM
Dec 2013

is someone with at least one Jewish grandparent, effectively the same definition that Hitler adopted.

The definition of an Australian Aborigine is not based on blood quantum, instead an Aborigine is someone who reasonably self-identifies as Aboriginal and is accepted by that community as such.

As for Native Americans, I have no idea.

But again, your criticism would apply just as much to the State of Israel (which must decide who is and who is not Jewish) than to those who would like to see a fair deal for the Bedouin.

pelsar

(12,283 posts)
60. I'm not arguing that
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 11:18 AM
Dec 2013

the state of israel does use blood/identifiable criteria for ethnic laws....

i'm just clarifying the issue.....the use of laws based on ethniticiy to screw others who are not of that ethnicity is apparently used by many many many countries around the world (most), INCLUDING western countries ....that claim "equality under the law*

*unless of course your an indian, bediouin, aborigine, eskimo, a midget, 1/5 black, 1/8 indian, in which case you get special laws that in effect gives u special rights that many times will screw others (as in admission to universities or jobs).
___

so i believe we have cleared up that aspect: The bedouin may indeed need some unique laws to help bring them in the fold of citizenship that the others have all adapted to, and its probably due to the fact that israel concentrated on the north more than the south, but whatever the solution is, the principle remains that....

Laws based on ethnicity remains RACIST whether it be better or worse for the jew, christian, muslim, or better for the country as a whole it remains racist.

your disagreement with the state of israel is not that it has racists laws, your for them, you disagree with who gets the advantage of the racist laws, not the concept of it

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
65. I think that there is a moral difference between...
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 08:37 AM
Dec 2013

laws which prevent Arabs or Blacks from buying land (such as the land covenants in pre-Civil rights America), and laws which recognise the native title claims of indigenous inhabitants.

Laws based on ethnicity remains RACIST


Zionism is based on ethnicity. It essentially says that Jews, as an ethnic group, have an entitlement to Israel due to their historical and cultural associations with the area. The land claims by the Bedouin are essentially based on the same principle.

Are you saying that Zionism is racism?

pelsar

(12,283 posts)
70. all nations and nationalistic movements are built on racism....
Mon Dec 9, 2013, 06:10 AM
Dec 2013

Last edited Mon Dec 9, 2013, 07:02 AM - Edit history (7)

and yes that includes Israel (and the "post zionists), and Canada and Australia and Nazi Germany.....

typically you believe your version of "racism" is the more "moral one"..thats why you believe it...funny thing about that belief, didn't US govt have the same belief when it slaughtered the Indians? Isn't that the same morality that the taliban has? that the Assad has as he gasses his opposition?

This is not a difficult concept, it only gets messy when one starts with the "holy then thou attitude" and with it the denial of racism.

for example, replacing a white boy in acceptance to a college with a black/indian one because he has the proper genes is pure racist, you can argue the moral value of denying the white boy what he worked so hard for because of his skin color, but it remains a racist policy.


or more relevant: a jew from Tel Aviv finds a hill top in the Negev and builds his house....on the hilltop next to his, a Bedouin builds his house...guess who's house will be destroyed and who's wont? (hint, the jews, because he is a jew and not a Bedouin). Thats racism.

--------------------------------
name a country any country and i'm guessing but it will take about 1 minute to find some law that shows that 'equality under the law " does not exist and that it has something to do with race.

your belief is simply that israel, by its very existence is immoral..a "blot" that has to be erased from the planet so that the gods of progressiveness and nationalism will be satisfied...and your 'weapon of choice" this time is racism.

Israeli

(4,151 posts)
72. another dig at post zionism pelsar ...
Mon Dec 9, 2013, 07:39 AM
Dec 2013

a concept you cant seem to comprehend ...

whats the first thing we would like to change ?.... the national anthem ..Hatikva .

how relevant is it today ?

relevant to around how many ????

its a racist national nationalistic anthem pelsar .....and it excludes over 25% of us .





pelsar

(12,283 posts)
99. actually its a dig against hypocrisy....
Fri Dec 13, 2013, 05:10 PM
Dec 2013

post zionism, like all nationalistic movements have built-in racism. Its nothing against post zionism in particular, its just as guilty as zionism in that regard.

changing the national anthem, will no doubt make some groups happy while offending others.....each "group' (in this case the post zionists) care more about one group than the other.

you group is simply no different than gush emunim in that respect, both groups believe they have the superior value system.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
76. So to summarise your argument...
Mon Dec 9, 2013, 10:53 PM
Dec 2013

The people who support the Bedouin are racists, the Zionists are racists and the Nazis were racist.

The pro-Bedouin people are no better than the Zionists, who are no better than the Nazis.

Is there anyone in this world who isn't a racist? You?



pelsar

(12,283 posts)
98. my argument is that your argument for special favors is racism
Fri Dec 13, 2013, 05:05 PM
Dec 2013

all i'm saying is if your going to call israel a racist country and then promote racists laws for certain israelis, i would say that makes you simply a hypocrite....

do you disagree?

(I don't care what you excuse is: promoting laws for a certain group based on their genetics is racism, is that not the definition?)

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
100. I think that you're confused
Fri Dec 13, 2013, 10:09 PM
Dec 2013

It is the State of Israel that chose to recognise certain land claims in 1948 (such as those of the Greeks and Armenians as well as of course the Jews) but not others (the Arabs, including the Bedouin). If any decision was racist, it was that one.

pelsar

(12,283 posts)
101. your the one that is pro racism
Sat Dec 14, 2013, 03:54 AM
Dec 2013

Last edited Sat Dec 14, 2013, 04:35 AM - Edit history (2)

i'm not claiming that israel doesn't have racists laws, i readily admit it. Israels democracy like all democracies have that built in.

but your the one that wants special laws just for one(?) single racial group, and then you want to claim that israel is a racist country because it has laws based on race.

that is your position is it not?
____


here i'll make is simply using "progressive language" if the S.Bedouin require special attention, don't their brothers up north, also require some "special attention", and if they do, don't the druze who have their own set of problems require some special attention"

i.e. special laws for their special needs that is the consequences of the establishment of the state of israel? that is your position is it not? and if i am wrong please explain how you DONT want special laws for any single racial/genetic/cultural group.

a lot of talk of apartheid israel, and here you are proposing exactly that.(u just want a different group to get the better laws)

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
102. so is it racist to take land from Bedouin or to let them keep it?
Sat Dec 14, 2013, 04:25 AM
Dec 2013

You seem to be admitting that the first option is racist, buy you seem to think the second us as well.

What should an avowed non-racist do in the case of the Negev Bedouin?

pelsar

(12,283 posts)
103. accept that is racist either way.....
Sat Dec 14, 2013, 04:41 AM
Dec 2013

Last edited Sat Dec 14, 2013, 08:09 AM - Edit history (2)

the Bedouin in the South, (btw, like historical nomads in all countries) eventually have to live within the laws of the state of israel, without special treatment.....

buy you seem to think the second us as well.
..please explain to me how giving them special laws based on their genetics is not the very definition of racism?


an "avowed non racists, who is anti apartheid has to first admit that "their justice" does infact require a set of racial laws to "correct" their perception of the initial injustice. And this correction is in fact unfair to other citizens who belong to a different race but are also citizens of the very same country.

pelsar

(12,283 posts)
28. i can't resist.....
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 11:40 AM
Dec 2013

let me get this straight:
your agains the JNF's status because it has a definite racial aspect to it.

your believe the Bedouin in the South should have a special status that lets them live anywhere they want, while ignoring the laws that the rest of the israelis have to live by..which has a clear racial aspect to it.

so basically you have no problem with laws based on racism, its just in this case, you object to the jews getting the special racial laws and the group of your choice does not.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
29. Israel is so racist they have affirmative action for Bedouins purchasing land....
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 12:55 PM
Dec 2013
Moreover, sometimes Israeli Arabs receive more favorable terms from the ILA than do Israeli Jews. Thus, for example, in new Jewish communities near Beersheva the ILA charged $24,000 for a capital lease on a quarter of an acre, while at the same time Bedouin families in the nearby community of Rahat paid only $150 for the same amount of land. (Israel's Dilemma, Shapolsky Publications, p. 97, 1989)


http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=5&x_article=39

RAcist to the core.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
47. Thats because Rahat is a Bedouin ghetto
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 10:12 PM
Dec 2013

built for them by Israel after the first wave of Negev Bedouin clearances in the seventies.

http://mondediplo.com/2012/08/06bedouin

No doubt it is a lot cheaper to lease there, in the same way that property values are a lot lower in Black ghettos in America, or Aboriginal ghettos in Australia, than they are in comparable white suburbs.

Frankly, the fact that you would choose to spin this as some kind of "affirmative action" policy shows just how much of a racist you are. Certainly CAMERA should be ashamed of themselves, although I doubt that they ever will be.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
48. You'd argue any town Israel builds for the Bedouin is a ghetto....
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 11:07 PM
Dec 2013

....that no one else would want to live in.

I'm pretty sure you believe Israel is building yet another ghetto for the Bedouin now in Hura. It's actually more affirmative action.

From the OP:

A fair arrangement for the Bedouins is no simple matter. One thing certain is that the path the state has chosen is not expulsion, disinheriting or transfer, but rather a generous offer that has cost and will cost the state hundreds of millions of shekels, and provides the Bedouins with tremendous benefits. This is discriminating against the Jews and affirmative action favoring the Bedouins. No Jew is entitled to receive free land in a Bedouin community, nor to buy land that is offered to Bedouins at reduced prices, when that possibility exists. A Bedouin, on the other hand, can choose between a Bedouin community and a Jewish community. If he wants to live in Hura, there is land with infrastructure waiting for him, at no charge. If he wants to live in Hiran, he may do so, under the same conditions as a Jew, Armenian or Buddhist.


The facts are the complete opposite of what you're trying to argue.

Truth be told, it is doubtful if there is a population anywhere in the world with similar characteristics, native or nomadic, that has been awarded such a generous settlement. But the propaganda film has managed to reverse this picture, such that matters must be returned to the proper perspective. It’s not that Jews are doing to the Bedouins what anti-Semites did to the Jews. Just the opposite. It is the “rights groups” and Rabbis for Human Rights, and it’s Haaretz that are continuing the old, despised tradition of libels. In the past it was against the Jews. Now it’s against the State of Israel.


What's racist and beneath contempt is all the fabricated malicious slander against the Jewish state. There's plenty to criticize Israel about. But that's not good enough for haters who live to demonize the "Zionists".

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
61. They've only ever built the one...
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 05:41 AM
Dec 2013

Rahat is, in fact, one of only two Arab towns that Israel has permitted to have been built since the Nakba.

....that no one else would want to live in.
\

Perfectly accurate. No one else does live there, except for a few Jewish social/government workers.

It is also a neglected and impoverished slum:-

Rahat schools plagued by filth, neglect

A Health Ministry report obtained by Haaretz shows severe health hazards in all the other schools in the Bedouin town. A team of ministry officials who visited the town two weeks after the school year began reported disgraceful findings.

Behind the main building of the Ibn Sina elementary school in Rahat stand dozens of prefabricated structures that serve as classrooms for 600 children. A heavy stench rises from four broken toilet stalls on the path leading to the rooms. These are the only toilets available to 600 students during the school day - one per every 150 students.


http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/rahat-schools-plagued-by-filth-neglect-1.394883

The facts are the complete opposite of what you're trying to argue
.


The facts are perfectly in accordance with everything I've argued. If the facts contravene the racist claptrap you keep peddling, then that is hardly my problem.

Truth be told, it is doubtful if there is a population anywhere in the world with similar characteristics, native or nomadic, that has been awarded such a generous settlement.


If its such a generous settlement, then offer it to the Jews. If a government township slum is good enough for the Bedouin, then it should be good enough for them, right?




 

shira

(30,109 posts)
62. The same could be said of Israeli settlements for religious haredi Jews....
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 04:36 PM
Dec 2013

...where no one else would want to live there. It doesn't mean it's a racist slum or ghetto.

The Bedouin arrangement is generous and was coordinated over hundreds of meetings with Bedouin leaders. Most Bedouin agreed to the plan. Half of the Bedouin who are moving live at the site of a toxic waste dump, while almost the entire other half moved to Hiran recently after the land was chosen over a decade ago by the state. The vast majority of Bedouin are either unaffected by the plan or do not have to move anywhere, as Israel will modernize their towns free of charge.

The only racists in this entire situation are the haters demonizing the Jewish state with their slander.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
64. No it fucking couldnt...
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 08:32 AM
Dec 2013

I dare say that a haredi school would have more than four toilets for six hundred students, and that students there wouldnt have to wade through human shit in order to use them. But again, my congratulations on whitewashing racism once again. It makes it easier to comprehend where you're coming from. And if the Israeli government is willing to defend the conditions at Rahat, at least the Bedouin know not to expect anything better at Hiran.

Half of the Bedouin who are moving live at the site of a toxic waste dump


A toxic waste dump that the Israeli government built next to the Bedouin that were already living there, and which precipitated a spate of horrific birth defects not only amongst the Bedouin, but also Jews living in Beersheba. Personally, I think the government and industry have a duty to avoid poisoning people and the environment. It shouldnt be up to the Bedouin to uproot their communities to avoid having their children poisoned.

The vast majority of Bedouin are either unaffected by the plan or do not have to move anywhere


Simply wrong.

There are about 210 000 Bedouin in the Negev. About 110 000 of those were already living in government townships. Of the remaining 90 000, about 40 000 will be displaced by the Prawer Plan, maybe more, maybe less. Nobody except the cabinet and the a representative of the extreme-right has seen the secret list showing exactly where the house demolitions are to take place.

Not a single Bedouin has been consulted as to the destruction and displacement of their homes.

The only racist in this conversation is yourself.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
66. There's practically a lie in every post you've made in this thread....
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 10:50 AM
Dec 2013

Last edited Sun Dec 8, 2013, 12:48 PM - Edit history (3)

...which demonstrates your racist contempt and hatred. Again, this reminds me of your conversation with Pelsar when you couldn't let go of the lie that Israelis killed Palestinians in order to harvest their organs. It's these lies that reveal who you truly are.

You claimed the Bedouin will not be able to purchase or lease land where they once lived. That was a lie. You said they were ordered to move to their township by Israel in 1956, when it was THEY who requested to move due to a dispute their clan had with another. So that was another lie. You say no Bedouin were consulted and that's a lie. In fact 3000 out of 4000 of the tribe have already moved to Hura. I claimed that most Bedouin were unaffected or were being offered town infrastructure in the areas they're already living in (all but 30-40,000 out of 210,000), meaning only 1 out of every 8 bedouin are truly affected. You denied this. And out of them, most chose to move to Hiran after the development plan started more than a decade ago, meaning nearly all who have to move now are relative newcomers (within the past decade) to land that was never theirs to begin with - and they're being given compensation and plots of land to build their own homes on very nearby adjacent land.

Really, where would you be if you couldn't smear, slander, and slime the Judeo-Nazi state? What would you do? Would you look for a new hobby? Get a real job?

===========

ETA regarding Bedouin who you say were never consulted, are in favor of the Begin-Prawer Plan, and are not protesting the move to "ghettos":

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/A-good-deal-for-the-Beduin-and-for-Israel-334143

Sheikh Odeh Zanoon is the first Negev Beduin leader to reach agreement with the State of Israel to establish a modern Beduin settlement for his tribe members, near Yeroham.

The 300 families of the Zanoon tribe, currently spread across an area of 20,000 dunams without electricity, running water and roads, will move to a modern settlement of approximately 1,500 dunams. The settlement will be planned with their full participation. Many tribe members doubt Israel’s benevolence, but recognize that the plan constitutes an invaluable opportunity for real quality of life.

Abed Tarabin is also moving his Tarabin clan from an illegal encampment near Omer to a properly- planned Beduin town, New Kfar Tarabin, with government support.

He says that “The government plan isn’t 100% perfect, but it is a great improvement over the current situation of Beduin in the Negev. We can build proper homes on recognized land, demand employment and health and education services, and make other demands of the government, like any other citizen. In our new town, we have asked for and received agricultural and industrial help.”

“The opposition to the plan,” Tarabin adds, “comes from belligerent politicians, making noise for their own purposes. It doesn’t come from real Beduin leaders who are concerned with their people. There is plenty of room in the Negev for everybody, and it is good that the government is working to improve things and is investing money in us.”

Kamel Jum’a Abu-Nadi of Lakia, a Beduin town founded in 1982 as part of a previous government project to settle Beduin in permanent towns, says that “The Begin plan is a fair proposal that seeks to end the saga of Beduin land claims. 85% of Beduin have no land claims; only 15% do, and these claims are holding up the development of the Negev for the Beduin. We simply have to reach a compromise on the land claims, since the government’s NIS 10 billion economic development plan for the Negev will improve our currently- very-bad situation in education, employment, welfare, transportation and other infrastructures.”

Id Abu Rashed, a prominent leader of the Rashed tribe from the town of Abu Qrenat (a Beduin town of 2,700 people expected to grow to 7,000 people by 2020, that lies between Beersheba and Dimona) says that “Those who oppose the Begin-Prawer plan do so for political reasons, not substantive reasons. If you check just who has been demonstrating against the plan, you discover that half of the protesters are Arab-Israelis [i.e., not Beduin] from Israel’s north that are being bussed in from the north in organized fashion. The flags of Palestine that are flown at these demonstrations led by the Arab-Israeli Islamic Movement and its Balad political party in fact damage the reputation of the Beduin in the Negev. The Negev Beduin have no anti-Israel nationalist motivations, nor have they ever in past.”

Hassan Ka’abia, a Beduin officer in the IDF from the village of Ka’abia who now works for the Israel Foreign Affairs Ministry, says that the sedentarization of the Beduin people is necessary and inevitable, and the alternative is poverty, crime and illness.

“This transition,” he says, “difficult as it may be, is fascinating and another piece in the cosmopolitan mosaic that is the modern State of Israel.”

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
67. Now you're just getting desperate
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 09:23 PM
Dec 2013
Again, this reminds me of your conversation with Pelsar when you couldn't let go of the lie that Israelis killed Palestinians in order to harvest their organs.


That is a baseless smear. Either back it up with some evidence or retract that allegation.

You claimed the Bedouin will not be able to purchase or lease land where they once lived.


You're a goddamn liar.

This was your claim:-

Israeli Bedouin can buy/lease anywhere. The ILA then compensates the JNF for the land.


That is plainly false. Due to the "approvals committees" which exclude potential residents on the basis of "social suitability" it is highly unlikely that any Bedouin will be permitted to live in any of the JNF settlements in the Negev or Galilee.

I claimed that most Bedouin were unaffected or were being offered town infrastructure in the areas they're already living in (all but 30-40,000 out of 210,000)


At the very least, this is a half-truth. The majority of Negev Bedouin are already living in ghettos such as Rahat (110 000 out of 210 000). Of course, they're not likely to be affected, as Israel has already achieved the objective of moving them off their land.

Of the remainder of Negev Bedouin living in unrecognised villages (90,000) - about half are affected by the evictions.

Sheikh Odeh Zanoon is the first Negev Beduin leader to reach agreement with the State of Israel to establish a modern Beduin settlement for his tribe members, near Yeroham.


This article is a follow-on from a press release by the Israeli government:-

http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/IsraelExperience/People/Pages/Two-Bedouin-sheikhs-and-the-Begin-Plan-Dec-2013.aspx



Listen to the two gentlemen in the video. The way that they express themselves is entirely distinct from the passages that have been attributed to them in the article. The quotes are almost certainly a fabrication. I dare say that the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs prepared them and simply gave them to the two gentlemen to sign off on.

But these two men are fortunate. Their traditional lands are in or close to the "triangle" (of Qsseifa, Dimona and Beersheeba) where evictions will be limited, and a number of unrecognised villages will be recognised. Abu Rashed admits this himself when he states that his tribe will be allowed to remain where they are.

Good for them, but not so good for the other half of the Bedouin population that are going to be evicted.
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
68. You're slipping.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 10:03 PM
Dec 2013

1. You accuse me of making a baseless smear and ask that I retract, but here's the conversation with Pelsar when you wouldn't let go of the accusation that the IDF was killing Palestinians in order to harvest their organs:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x365594

2. You say it's highly unlikely Bedouin will be able to purchase/lease property. You're giving your opinion, not fact. All it would take is one Bedouin family to put in a bid, fail due to discrimination, and then go to the media or the courts for justice.

3. Did you really watch that video of the 2 Bedouin gentlemen? They just obliterated most of your argument and confirmed those written quotes. I should thank you for posting the video. THANKS! And here's the video again. They believe Begin and the Israeli gov't means well and they don't give a shit what foreign propagandists and professional smear artists think...


shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
69. Now we can all see what a bullshit artist you are...
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 10:34 PM
Dec 2013
that the IDF was killing Palestinians in order to harvest their organs


I never made that allegation, and your citation does not show me as having made it.

It does show me as saying that organs were harvested from Palestinian corpses after they were killed, but not that the IDF killed the Palestinians in order to harvest organs.

The statement that I did make, namely that organs were in fact harvested from Palestinian corpses, also happens to be perfectly true.

Again, please back up your allegation, or retract it.

You say it's highly unlikely Bedouin will be able to purchase/lease property.


Also true.

Did you really watch that video of the 2 Bedouin gentlemen?


Yep.

They just obliterated most of your argument


Nope.

and confirmed those written quotes.


Please indicate the precise point at which the quotes appear in the video, or retract that allegation.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
71. You can't stop with the bullshit and lies, can you?
Mon Dec 9, 2013, 07:12 AM
Dec 2013

Keep digging those heels in...

The conversation with Pelsar (that anyone here can read) was WRT how a foreign paper falsely reported that Israel was killing Palestinians for their organs. At no point in that conversation did you acknowledge such reports were slanderous. IOW, the doctor involved was criminally culpable of taking organs from everyone, both Jews and Palestinians alike (not just Palestinians). This was news in Israel well over a decade prior. Also, no Palestinians were being singled out by Israel and killed in order to take their organs. This reporting was nothing short of blood libel, falsely accusing Israel of racism vs. Palestinians.

As to the video, let's recall that you wrote the following:

Listen to the two gentlemen in the video. The way that they express themselves is entirely distinct from the passages that have been attributed to them in the article. The quotes are almost certainly a fabrication. I dare say that the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs prepared them and simply gave them to the two gentlemen to sign off on.


What part of the video makes you believe that utter bullshit? The video complements those quotes very well.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
73. So you admit that I didnt say it...
Mon Dec 9, 2013, 09:27 PM
Dec 2013

but because I did not say the direct opposite, I can be inferred as having said it. Makes about as much sense as the rest of your guff I suppose.

What part of the video makes you believe that utter bullshit? The video complements those quotes very well.


Firstly, it is obvious that the op-ed you posted was derived from government propaganda and not from an interview conducted in the normal sense of that word. Certainly, there is no record apart from that op-ed of the two Bedouin having said the remarks attributed to them.

Secondly, the statements quoted in the op-ed are written as though a PR consultant had said them. The language employed by the Bedouin themselves in the video is much cagier and pithier, spoken in short sentences. It is quite obvious that the two men have been verballed.
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
74. Your post in #25 of that thread, after all that discussion with Pelsar......
Mon Dec 9, 2013, 09:54 PM
Dec 2013

....goes to show that you approved of a newspaper publishing demonizing slander against Israel. The best you could say earlier in that thread was that the article was "probably" misleading, but then you came up with the same racist bile in #25, pretending Palestinians were targeted for organ theft. Even after the author of the original article admitted he had no proof and after the Guardian apologized for their headline.

You'd certainly accuse others of being racists for defending rightwing, slanderous bigoted articles demonizing other ethnic or racial groups. But you defend it when the Jewish state is the target.

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
75. Did I?
Mon Dec 9, 2013, 10:45 PM
Dec 2013

I could have sworn that I'd actually condemned the article, even after it was established that many of its allegations were in fact true.

Oh, thats right, I did:-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x360247

"The Aftonbladet article was sloppy journalism, and I certainly would have apologised for it, notwithstanding the later revelations that Israel's chief pathologist was indeed harvesting organs from Palestinian bodies during the time alleged by Aftonbladet (around 1992)."


So that's that settled. What else have you got?
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
78. I don't remember seeing that at the time. Took you awhile but....
Tue Dec 10, 2013, 07:44 AM
Dec 2013

...what do you mean by having them apologize for sloppy journalism?

Does that mean you now think the article was hate speech that maliciously accused Israel of racism?

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
79. I'm inclined to tell you to go fuck yourself...
Tue Dec 10, 2013, 08:51 AM
Dec 2013

Your first accusation - that I had said that Israel killed Palestinians in order to harvest their organs - was false.

Even your subsequent, vastly downgraded accusation that I had failed to condemn the aftonbladet article was also false.

Presumably, you are now trying to angle for an accusation that I did not condemn it in the right terms, or in a timely enough fashion. As a matter of fact, I do recall condemning the article when it first appeared, but I no longer have the patience to deal with your spurious allegations. Anyone with an ounce of contrition would have apologized long ago.

I think you're a dishonest, racist little grub.

Feel free to alert on that if you like.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
80. You spent a lot of time defending a slanderous, racist article that incited hatred.....
Tue Dec 10, 2013, 09:14 AM
Dec 2013

You are still defending it by maintaining that it contained some slivers of truth (the very essense of hate & demonization). You battled for days and at best you came up with some mealy-mouthed criticism of it later. You are still incapable of acknowledging it was demonizing, slanderous hate speech.

In addition, you're still defending all these malicious articles today that incite hatred WRT Bedouin housing. Slivers of truth combined with malicious falsehoods are fair game to you when the target is the Jewish state. The reason you won't condemn any false articles today about the Bedouin is the same reason you're still mealy-mouthed about organ harvesting slander from years back.

I think you're a dishonest, racist little grub.


Funny how you can't acknowledge how dishonest and racist the articles are that you're defending.

Be a mensch and do the right thing. I know you realize how this all works. Remember the allegations of Iranian and Islamic prison rape? There were slivers of truth in that reporting too...

Therefore there was no inciting going on then....no hate, nothing racist, and certainly no demonization - correct?

pelsar

(12,283 posts)
51. confused?
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 02:13 AM
Dec 2013

Last edited Fri Dec 6, 2013, 06:22 AM - Edit history (1)

making an argument with a predetermined (racist) agenda usually makes for poor logic

No doubt it is a lot cheaper to lease there, in the same way that property values are a lot lower in Black ghettos in America,

on one post you argue, that no one wants to live there as the land is unattractive.(previous post)
then you state the cheaper housing is because no one wants to live there....

conclusion, it must be defined as a ghetto, because its cheaper......so every place that has "unattractive land" that has cheaper prices is similar to a "black ghetto."

so if mention the village of ezuz, which is really really "unattractive", where housing is dirt cheap and its in the southern negev....is that too a ghetto? or since there are jews living there, you can't declare it a ghetto?

or more likely you'll now add a few more conditions to your argument to further refine it, so that you can exclude the jewish israelis....(correct?)

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
22. more about the JNF and land particularly in the Negev
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:23 AM
Dec 2013
An alternative proposal submitted by Amnon Rubinstein, a former minister, recommended that a distinction be made between JNF lands and state lands, such that all JNF lands directly acquired via donations from abroad specifically for the benefit of Jews (some 900,000 dunams (900 km2)) will pass to the direct control of the JNF; while properties purchased by the JNF from the state in the 1950s and formerly belonging to Palestinian refugees (the so-called "lands of missing persons" or "absentee" lands, amounting to 2,000,000 dunams (2,000 km2)) would revert to state control.[48] Rubinstein's intention was "to avoid passing racist legislation [such as the Ariel Bill] that would limit the use of these lands to the Jews". Others denied however that the Ariel Bill was racist.[49] The Rubinstein proposal was not taken up.

The solution to the problem was eventually found in late 2007, when it was proposed to swap land between the state and the JNF.[50] The deal was designed to render redundant the Ariel Bill, deemed by some to be racist, while allowing the JNF to continue leasing its lands only to Jews. After the initial land swap, urban JNF land sold in future to non-Jews would include an automatic swap mechanism: the fund would transfer the land to the ILA, and in exchange would receive the purchase price plus a similar-sized plot in the Negev.


This page was last modified on 30 October 2013 at 10:22.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
25. Meitar is ILA land
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 05:25 AM
Dec 2013

or at least part of it is, although the forest nearby is JNF land. Therefore Arabs may lease that part which is owned by the State via the ILA. However, the Negev settlements being built by the JNF will only be leased to Jews.

And as I said before, neither Jews nor Arabs can buy the land. It is only available for long term lease.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
27. Israeli Bedouin can buy/lease anywhere. The ILA then compensates the JNF for the land.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 10:02 AM
Dec 2013

Not to be confused with current Palestinian and Jordanian state-mandated law which forbids land sales to Jews.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
30. still not accurate the land transferred to JNF is in the Negev
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 01:21 PM
Dec 2013

The solution to the problem was eventually found in late 2007, when it was proposed to swap land between the state and the JNF.[50] The deal was designed to render redundant the Ariel Bill, deemed by some to be racist, while allowing the JNF to continue leasing its lands only to Jews. After the initial land swap, urban JNF land sold in future to non-Jews would include an automatic swap mechanism: the fund would transfer the land to the ILA, and in exchange would receive the purchase price plus a similar-sized plot in the Negev.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
34. The point is that Israel's non-Jews can purchase/lease anywhere....
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 03:59 PM
Dec 2013

For example, the Bedouin leaving al-Hiran now are being compensated with a plot of land elsewhere. They could sell that plot and use the proceeds to buy or lease land back in al-Hiran, a town that is falsely being labeled exclusively Jewish.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
38. unless the JNF owns it and in the case of Hiran or umm al Hiran
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:07 PM
Dec 2013

that is one of the Bedouin villages being demolished to make way for a Jewish only settlement

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
39. Huh? What does the JNF have to do with it if the ILA mandates that the land is open....
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:11 PM
Dec 2013

...for sale or lease to non-Jews? At worst, the JNF is forced to sell/lease and the ILA then compensates the JNF for that land.

There's nothing stopping Bedouin from purchasing or leasing in those "Jewish-only" settlements.

Just as there's nothing stopping Israel's Arabs from purchasing homes in the settlements over the green lines (in allegedly exclusive Jewish neighborhoods).

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
40. for the 3rd time the link that explains how it works and how JNF gets land in the Negev
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:24 PM
Dec 2013

The solution to the problem was eventually found in late 2007, when it was proposed to swap land between the state and the JNF.[50] The deal was designed to render redundant the Ariel Bill, deemed by some to be racist, while allowing the JNF to continue leasing its lands only to Jews. After the initial land swap, urban JNF land sold in future to non-Jews would include an automatic swap mechanism: the fund would transfer the land to the ILA, and in exchange would receive the purchase price plus a similar-sized plot in the Negev.

This page was last modified on 30 October 2013 at 10:22.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
45. The Negev settlements will be covered by admissions committees...
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 07:44 PM
Dec 2013

under the Admissions Committees Law.

From 2011, that law allows villages to adapt "selection committees" which can reject applications for residency based on criteria including "social unsuitability".

The law, passed last March, allows the use of acceptance committees "to bar residents who do not suit the lifestyle and social fabric of the community" only in communities in the Galilee and the Negev that have fewer than 400 families.


According to Adalah attorney Suhad Bishara, this position allows screening committees at 475 communities in the north and south, which comprise 46 percent of all the towns and cities in Israel and 65 percent of its communal and agricultural settlements.


http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-ag-defends-controversial-law-on-admissions-panels-1.409233

You can bet your bottom dollar that "social unsuitability" includes being "not Arab" and definitely "not Bedouin".

Additionally, even American Jewish leaders have occasionally been honest when speaking about the real objectives of settlement in the Negev:-

It’s a dream, it was David Ben Gurion’s dream, it’s been a dream of many, many people, and I think the time is now. If the time is not now, we will lose, we will lose the Negev, we will lose our chance. We would lose it not only to the Bedouins, but we would lose it to people who would normally move here from the Diaspora, who would decide not to move here.


http://www.herzliyaconference.org/eng/?CategoryID=202&ArticleID=1339

Nothing racist about that of course. I am sure that good-mannered Americans speak about "losing" Detroit or Philadelphia to the Blacks all the time.

And of course, if our Kahanist friend sees nothing racist in it (and why would she?) then whats not to love?
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
49. So you're certain that if any Bedouin want to buy/lease in Hiran, they won't be able to.....
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 11:09 PM
Dec 2013

Is that right?

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
54. its highly unlikely
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 06:46 AM
Dec 2013

And I'm not sure how it would work. Under the current scheme, the JNF gets land in the Negev whenever it is forced to lease urban land to an Arab. The land with the Arab gets transferred to the ILA and in exchange the JNF gets the purchase monies and negev land. The JNF therefore avoids compromising on its racist principles and the State in effect is able to resolve the problem by kicking some scraggly natives off their land.

If the JNF has to lease its Negev land to Arabs, I'm not sure what the state could offer them in compensation. In think the whole point of the admissions committee laws was to try and avoid that scenario. Unlike the Ariel bill, the admissions law isn't blatantly racist on its face, it just has that effect in practice.

It is quite similar to the WASP Country clubs in the US that didn't have explicit "no Jew" policies, but had selection policies that operated to exclude Jews from membership.

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