Just like their old friends the Nationalist Party of South Africa that ruled under SA apartheid, Israel oppresses and segregates and steals property and rights from Palestinians.

We need to move away from our close relationship with this problematic state.

...through occupied territory and we'll talk. Until then at the very least, it's apartheid.

There will be a return of the suicide death cult bombers left , right and centre.

It has been proven to be very effective.

It is not by accident that we can not remember when the last suicide bomb was within Israel.

Rockets , yes....the Iron Dome is not as effective as the wall.

Maybe the rockets and suicide bombs would abate if Israel stopped oppressing the Palestinians, followed UN resolutions mandating cessation of settlement in occupied territories and the right of refuges to return to their homes and property, and granted full rights of citizenship to all of its citizens. Maybe not, but until then, hearing the oppressors complain about their safety is not particularly compelling.

Israel's security services disagree with you.






Etc., etc.

Really, you need to stop acting like this thing is the Great Wall holding back a horde of savage barbarians.

“PIJ (Palestinian Islamic Jihad) leader Ramadan Abdallah Shalah was interviewed in Damascus by the Qatari newspaper Al-Sharq. He said that the second intifada was currently characterized by rocket fire, which had replaced the previous stage of suicide bombing attacks. That, he said, was because the enemy (i.e., Israel) had found ways and means to protect itself from such attacks: “…For example, they built a separation fence in the West Bank. We do not deny that it limits the ability of the resistance (i.e., the terrorist organizations) to arrive deep within (Israeli territory) to carry out suicide bombing attacks, but the resistance has not surrendered or become helpless, and is looking for other ways to cope with the requirements of every stage [of the intifada]…” (Al-Sharq, March 23, 2008).”

“PIJ leader Ramadan Abdallah Shalah told Hezbollah’s Al-Manar TV that the terrorist organizations had no intention of abandoning suicide bombing attacks but that their timing and the possibility of carrying them out from the West Bank depended on other factors. “For example,” he said, “there is the separation fence which is an obstacle to the resistance (i.e., the terrorist organizations), and if it were not there, the situation would be entirely different” (Al-Manar TV, November 11, 2006).”

“Mousa Abu Marzouq, deputy chairman of Hamas’s political bureau in Damascus, was asked by a group of Egyptian intellectuals and politicians why the suicide bombing activity had decreased during since the Hamas government came to power. He said that “(carrying out) such attacks is made difficult by the security fence and the gates surrounding West Bank residents.” (Abd al-Muaz Muhammad, Ikhwan Online, the Muslim Brotherhood Website, June 2, 2007).”

I always pictured them as the fat beer-swilling redneck uncle among terrorist groups.

We're talking Hamas and Islamic Jihad here. How eager do you think they would be to say "Yeah well, politics are why we've ceased / slowed operations"?

The wall seems pretty permeable for individuals, and even if it weren't, attacks at checkpoints could still be "effective" for what these guys do.

....grinded to a halt once the barrier/fence/wall was erected? Really?

One, the preponderance of discriminatory law in Israel.

Two, the occupation itself, which Israel has been treating as a de facto annexation for forty years - along with Golan. As long as Israel treats these territories as part of Israel, with military law for the Arabs and Israeli law for Jews, it's apartheid.

Three, Israel's new and nasal demand to be referred to as "The Jewish State" is inherently discriminatory towards a third of its population - not just Arabs, but every other non-Jewish citizen as well. If Israeli-ness is defined by Jewishness, then these people are not Israelis.

Synonyms for iran

Noun
1. Iran, Islamic Republic of Iran, Persia, Asian country, Asian nation
usage: a theocratic islamic republic in the Middle East in western Asia; Iran was the core of the ancient empire that was known as Persia until 1935; rich in oil; involved in state-sponsored terrorism


Read more: Synonyms of iran | Infoplease.com http://thesaurus.infoplease.com/iran#ixzz2uqUrOUMt

Tell me, o King of the Jews, how do your people fare in Iran? How do Christians fare in Iran? How do Zoroastrians, Sunni, and Baha'i and atheists fare in Iran? Are they equals with the Shia Muslims of Iran? Will there ever be a ?Ahmadiyya Supreme Leader?

Further, when Iran defines itself as Islamic, is "Islamic" a hereditary group? Are you born Muslim? Is it an ethnic classification? I ask because that's pretty obviously how Israel is using the term "Jewish" here, as a statement of ethnicity rather than religion.

Iran treats non-Shia groups as lessors - some are actively persecuted as is the case of atheists and Baha'i. Further non-Persian ethnic groups such as Kurds and the Arabs of Khuzestan are openly discriminated against in state policy and resource distribution.

You really want to start linking Israel up to Iran? 'Cause we totally can, if that's what you want.

I am atheist and a Jew and know more about my people than that.

But your post does reveal you have problems with the way Jewish people have survived and been around for 1000s of years.

What about the Jewish Peoples 'structure' bugs you so much?

Your Question : 'is "Islamic" a hereditary group? Are you born Muslim? Is it an ethnic classification?'

Well Jewish people have all that for 1000s of years and you think it is wrong?

Gee I wonder who you can take that up with and get it changed? LOL

To realize that Iran is far from fair to all of its religious and ethnic groups. Nor to realize that "Muslim" is not an ethnic grouping, and is not used as such in the "Islamic Republic of..." states

Not a damn thing. What bothers me is the notion of a state defining itself on an ethnic basis, especially when there's a hell of a lot of people who do not make up that ethnicity living as citizens of the state. The idea of an ethnocratic state bothers the hell out of me, and I would think it should bother the hell out of anyone who claims to even a sliver of liberalism.



Well Dave, you're the one who crammed your own ass in your mouth by trying to draw parallels between Israel's demand to be recognized as a "Jewish state," and Iran's status as an "Islamic Republic." I have a problem with theocracies too; don't you? The possibility that the Palestinians might want to institute some variety of Islamic law is enough for you to completely oppose the notion of a Palestinian state, so I have to guess you do.

It's cute that you keep trying the tack of characterizing opposition to poorly-thought Israeli policy as hatred of Jews.



Well, if I were interested, I'd talk to a guy on DU I know who makes a regular practice of excommunicating Jews for being Mexican or being Haredi or disagreeing with him about stuff. He's apparently a king or something like that, I dunno, it doesn't make much sense to me.

He is completely correct with the below :

" Three, Israel's new and nasal demand to be referred to as "The Jewish State" is inherently discriminatory towards a third of its population - not just Arabs, but every other non-Jewish citizen as well. If Israeli-ness is defined by Jewishness, then these people are not Israelis. "

You want a look into our future ....then read here :

http://adam-keller2.blogspot.co.il/2014/02/not-apartheid-state-bennett-will-take.html

when then President Katzav chose to step down suddenly due to rape charges (he was convicted) while the person who normally would have been filling in was out off town

the claim is quite misleading on it's face and the need to resort to such misleading statements as proof speaks for itself

Which Presidents are elected?

This is a figurehead position . Appointedby the Knesset . MK's vote for the President and or the replacement .

This is the problem here in this group ...

You going to also admit you never read a book on Zionism Jews and Israel like other posters here have ?

to be chosen to lead Israel -thanks for highlighting that out for us

You can explain it away, but it would have been unthinkable for anything of the sort to have occurred in apartheid South Africa. It would have been outright illegal, in fact.

Let's pretend you've just utterly invalidated that argument, though. There's still a number of Arab mayors, Knesset members, supreme court justices, diplomats, and so on. In South Africa, black people couldn't even vote, let alone hold important political positions.

Last edited Mon Mar 3, 2014, 11:56 AM - Edit history (1)

chose to step down period end of story

Last edited Fri Mar 7, 2014, 01:02 PM - Edit history (1)

...was convicted and found guilty by....get this....an Arab-Israeli Palestinian Judge.

What kind of crazy apartheid allows for the President of Israel to step down, be replaced temporarily by an Israeli Palestinian President, and then get convicted of crimes by another Israeli Palestinian who sends the former Israeli President to prison?

When has such a thing ever happened in the history of Apartheid?

Riddle me that one.

Nothing remotely close to that claim that I could find. There are many other inaccuracies as well.

Poll: Jerusalem Arabs prefer Israel

US poll: 39% of east Jerusalem Arabs prefer to live under Israeli sovereignty; 30% didn't answer

WASHINGTON – The future of Jerusalem is considered one of the core issues in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations and one of the most significant obstacles to a permanent agreement between the two sides. However, it appears that on the Palestinian side, those who live in Jerusalem have already made their decision on the matter – and the Palestinian Authority leadership in Ramallah may not like it.


Year after building project approved, bulldozers begin infrastructure work atop Mount of Olives Ridge; housing units to serve married students attending nearby yeshiva. Rabbi: Project strengthens Jewish presence in united Jerusalem
Full Story


A public opinion poll carried out by American Pechter Middle East Polls for the Council on Foreign Relations together with the head of the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion, Dr. Nabil Kukali, showed that if Jerusalem were divided as part of a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, east Jerusalem Arabs would prefer to live under Israeli sovereignty.


The poll, which comprised the residents of east Jerusalem's 19 Arab neighborhoods, also pointed out that their opposition to Jerusalem's division is so intense that they would rather move to a new home within Israel's borders rather than live under the authority of a Palestinian state.


The study also showed that Jerusalem's Palestinian residents were interested in keeping their Israeli Identity cards and enjoying the State's health and social benefits. Some 35% of them said that Israeli citizenship is their preferred citizenship and only 30% chose to be citizens of the future Palestinian state. An additional 30% said that they didn't know, or preferred not to answer the question.


And what would the neighbors say? When asked "if most people in your neighborhood” would prefer to become citizens of Palestine or of Israel: 31% estimated that most people prefer Palestinian citizenship; 39% estimated that most people prefer Israeli citizenship; and 30% declined to answer or said they didn’t know.


It would seem that the residents of east Jerusalem are willing to pay a high price in order to carry the blue Israeli identity card: 40% said they would move in order to remain Israeli citizens if their neighborhood was transferred to Palestinian sovereignty. In contrast, only 29% said that if the opposite were to occur, and their neighborhood remained under Israel's authority they would move to an area under Palestinian authority.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4013000,00.html


Your source, Alan Johnson, BICOM: The Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre (BICOM) seeks to present Israel’s case to journalists.[22] The Guardian has described it as an "influential Jewish lobby group".[23][24]

The London-based Jewish Chronicle reported that Brian Kerner, former chair of Joint Israel Appeal argued that there was "the need for a body able to orchestrate British Jewry’s political and public relations" after the year 2000 outbreak of the Second Intifada. The day after it began, fifty Jewish leaders met with the Israeli ambassador and “raised an initial £250,000 fund for pro-Israel lobbying and public relations.” BICOM was founded as a consequence. The article also noted that "a debate goes on in the community’s upper echelons over whether BICOM should remain a mainly-behind-the-scenes player focussing on media or a more upfront pro-Israel lobby similar to the American Aipac...”[25]

According to a 2002 article in The Guardian Bicom and the Board of Deputies of British Jews had "adopted aggressive media strategies to defend Israel and attack its critics in Britain." In 2002 leaders of the British Jewish community called in two high level American strategists "to conduct research into the extent of hostility to Israel in Britain with a view to the British Jewish community launching a big public relations drive." In particular, focus groups were "said to have found particular hostility among professional and academic groups."[26] The American paper The Forward reported that in 2005 Steve J. Rosen, then American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) policy director, led an ambitious and “semisecret” effort to start similar pro-Israel lobbying organizations in the United Kingdom due to rising antisemitism and anti-Israel sentiment.[27] In early 2008, The Jewish Chronicle reported that a new, yet unnamed London-based organisation would examine whether Israel received fair media coverage, but that it would not compete with BICOM.[22]

In the autumn of 2008 a senior Israeli government official shared his opinions on competition between BICOM, which he said wants to maintain its primary role in the UK, and the US-based Israel Project. He stated that BICOM charged that the Israel Project doesn't understand how to work with British journalists and said "We don't want to get into this. We work with both organisations." The Israel Project denied there was competition and BICOM declined to comment saying "We don't respond to speculation."[28]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_Kingdom

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3559045,00.html

Very interesting findings.

I'd wager the results would have been similar

There are many positive aspects to it, even though the sample
number was small.

Last edited Mon Mar 3, 2014, 01:00 PM - Edit history (1)

a lot of water has passed under the bridge in the ensuing years

just so there are no misunderstandings Annapolis took place in late 2007 the poll is from 2008

Conclusion: Arabs in Israel have no intention of ditching, but do want Israel to work better for them.

The conclusion is that they prefer living in Democratic Israel rather than any run pot dictatorships that surround Israel.

Would you rather live in the US, or in Israel? or the UK, or Finland, or wherever? Ask anyone anywhere, you'll almost inevitably get the answer that they'd rather stay where they are, which is why they're still there. Your attempt here is just the mirror image of the no less ludicrous "well if you don't like it, leave!" nonsense.

They prefer living in Israel because they are Israelis (despite efforts of goons like yourself to form an ethnocratic state that dismisses Arabs for their lack of rassenhygiene.) However it's clear that they overwhelmingly think Israel could be improved with regards to their community.

Reflect on Azurnoir's point about black Americans in 1951. Would any of them have preferred Canada or Liberia or wherever? likely not. Does this mean "oh well then, no problem for blacks in America!" No, it simply means that they're Americans and favor their own nation.

I noticed 3 things about you.

You hate losing arguments .
(One would think you would be used to it)

You consider yourself an authority on this topic .( Even after telling Shaktimaan that you have never read any books about it )

Your fast and furious with the personal insults whenever your weak arguments are pointed out to you.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=58587

When I'm talking to someone who tries to use intimidation to shut down discussion - your slick habit of calling everyone else around here an "antisemite" or "disloyal democrat" or "homophobe" - and who when that fails, shuts down the discussion by deleting posts (As in your recent "throw the gay Ugandans under the bus" thread and your "fuck those gay Africans, I'm with Kenneth Meshoe!" posts...) then "goon" is a proper term. This is to say nothing of when you just sneak out the back, as upthread where after attempting (again) to paint me as a jew-hater, you fail to respond to the notion of opposing ethnocracy and theocracy. Which based on many other posts from you, I don't figure you are opposed to at all; ethnocracy at least, though your sudden support for the Iranian theocracy makes me really wonder.

Thus - ethnocratic goons like yourself.

So now that we've addressed your attempted derail of the argument that you just lost, how about you get back in there and try to get a few punches in again?

Usually as soon as you lose grip of the argument . Here it was NaturalHigh in this post/ thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=58587

As far as the reason that post was deleted , it was an administrative request and absolutely nothing to do with any reason that you surmised .

Arabs in Israel favor Israel because they are Israelis. This does not mean that they see Israel as flawless - the poll's other results strongly indicate they see a lot of room for improvement with regard to their place in Israel, with 94% wanting an Israel in which Arab and Jewish citizens have mutual respect and equal opportunities. As Azurnoir pointed out, this is not too different from the sort of results that would have been garnered among American blacks in the 1950's.

Do you have a rebuttal beyond whining about my pointing out your standing position with regards to that desire they expressed? Do you have anything to say to my post upthread?

Speaking of the posts upthread, I'm curious why you expect politeneness after you put so much effort into casting me as a jew-hater, Dave. Or your many attempts to proclaim me as "disloyal to the party" or any other of your stupid nonsense. You've been telling me all along that you don't deserve the fluff and polish I might deliver towards people who act like people, instead of animatronic simulacra of Alan Dershowitz (Worst. Chuck E. Cheese. Ever.)

Your a very funny person.

Have a nice day.

Kinda blows your theory that it's retaliation against myself .

Specifically repels to NaturalHigh

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113458380

As for NaturalHigh, that's my response to ANYONE equating an entire nationality to a political party. It's a bigoted and brainless argument and deserves treatment as such.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=58519

'As opposed to people like you Pelsar, who believed in this'

I do not want these posts hidden,I never alerted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=58727

You'll also see at the bottom of the page that most Palestinians (those in the territories as well) admire Israel's form of government over all others.

So you're wrong in spectacular fashion.

#Major Fail.

How is it friggin' possible for 75% of Israel's Arabs supporting such a racist, apartheid state or admiring and preferring the Israeli form of government over all others on the planet....unless Israel isn't racist and apartheid to begin with? I can't imagine SA blacks ever stating such nonsense about their SA government at the peak of Apartheid. Your mind should be blown away with this new information. I want to know how you process this information into your future posts about I/P.

You're dead wrong, aren't you?

Just wanted to add my two cents and point out that the majority of Jews in Israel are from Arab countries. The Jews would have not left their homes in those Arab countries had they been treated half decently. Roughly equal amounts of Jews and Arabs swapped locations during Israel's independence war. The difference being that the Jews took in an embraced their refugees while the Arab countries stuck theirs in camps. Let's be honest, there are a lot of people out there who want to destroy the Jewish state and will attack it in any way possible. Twisting the truth just becomes a tactic for destroying the Jewish state.

26 March 2009
The Palestine Center
Washington, D.C.


http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/display/ContentDetails/i/5191/pid/3584


snip*I think it’s important to stress that there are major differences between apartheid as it was applied in South Africa and the policies and practices in the occupied territories. The systems are clearly not identical. But there are many similar features. I would just like to speak about what I regard as the three dominant features of apartheid in South Africa and examine the extent to which they apply in the Palestinian territory. First of all, there was what was known as “grand apartheid”; that was territorial separation. Then, there was what was incorrectly described as “petty apartheid,” which was racial discrimination. And then thirdly, there were the security laws.

Now there's a knowledgable , subjective and credible speaker.
Was Falk or Atzmon busy?

LOL

those who support occupation, and all the human rights abuses that have gone along with it.


Have a nice day.

Because YOU came to that conclusion certainly does not mean it's true.

I'm having a great day.

http://m.

Listen again to the song, doesn't say that at all.
It's an upbeat song.

And *I* should let if go huh ?

LOL

and then told me to have a good day .

Everything is awesome with me ... Thanks for caring.

Their have been some real doozy"s here recently ,about The Jewish National Project being akin to white Supremism and much more...

There are more than 50 Israeli laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel in all areas of life, including their rights to political participation, access to land, education, state budget resources, and criminal procedures. Some of the laws also violate the rights of Palestinians living in the 1967 OPT and Palestinian refugees.

You can also see Adalah's Brief on Discriminatory Laws and Bills Since 2009, and compiled Pending Discriminatory Bills in the 19th Israeli Knesset.

This database collects text, analyses, and legal action for present and proposed discriminatory laws in Israel and the OPT. Please explore:

http://adalah.org/eng/Israeli-Discriminatory-Law-Database

Last edited Wed Mar 5, 2014, 01:04 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/poll-75-of-israeli-arabs-support-jewish-democratic-constitution-1.219373

Wow! 75%

#BDS apartheid fail.

The haaretz page itself is defunct, but there's a small difference:

Another hurdle is that Israeli Jews don't want equality for Arabs.


There's also the question over whether 507 people is a viable sample size out of 1,658,000 people, and whether views from 2007 remain current.

Last edited Fri Mar 7, 2014, 03:02 PM - Edit history (6)

Are you sure you're for total 100% absolute equal rights for all Arab-Palestinians in Israel? By that, I mean do you support all Arab-Palestinians in Israel being drafted into the IDF, for example? In particular the 10's of thousands who don't want to fight fellow Arabs?

The ultra-orthodox are going nuts now protesting against being forced into military service. Imagine that happening WRT Israeli-Palestinians having to serve in the IDF. The BDS-holes would go nuts protesting Israeli-Palestinians being forced to "oppress" their fellow Palestinians and having to "defend" apartheid, colonialism, racism, the occupation, and settlements.

And then there's schooling. Maybe all Palestinian-Israelis, in order to be equal in all ways - especially economically - should all go to the same hebrew schools with Jewish curricula along with all other Jewish Israeli students. That way, they're more likely to get into better colleges and provide better for their families. No more Palestinian Arab curriculum. And I don't want to hear any bitching & moaning from you about this, okay?

Or are you for drafting Israeli-Palestinians and sending their kids to Jewish schools? If you're not, you're not for equal rights according to your logic.

=====

To be clear, I think Israel already guarantees equal rights to all minorities. Not all things are perfect, but such is life in all liberal western democracies. The situations above are examples of positive affirmative action. IMHO, they do not infringe on anyone's rights. But to BDS'ers like yourself, unless Palestinian-Israelis are equal in every way, shape, or form then this positive discrimination is proof they're not equal. It's total horseshit.

Last edited Wed Mar 5, 2014, 01:04 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/poll-shows-40-percent-of-jerusalem-arabs-prefer-israel-to-a-palestinian-sta



#BDS fail when E.Jerusalem Palestinians prefer to live under Israeli administration than Palestinian.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/international/middleeast/02LETT.html?pagewanted=1

The "apartheid" government is admired more by Palestinians than any other government system on the planet.

Go figure.

#BDS propaganda fail

Those poor bastards.

Also? Decade-old article.