Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Mosby

(16,310 posts)
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 08:17 PM Jun 2014

The Apartheid Libel: A Legal Refutation

Secretary of State John Kerry may have quickly retracted his recent off-the-record comment to the effect that without a peace agreement, Israel risks becoming “an apartheid state.” But his quip nonetheless has helped push the accusation into the mainstream conversation and ensure that it will continue to be repeated by Israel’s critics.

Yet the apartheid allegation—or, as Kerry carefully put it, the potential for apartheid accusation—has no relation to reality. To understand why, one must first understand that “apartheid” is not simply an epithet, but a legal term with strong historical connotations and a specific definition. Its origins, of course, lie in the name South Africa gave to its system of de jure segregation between blacks and whites in all aspects of life. This was done to ensure the perpetuation of white minority rule. International condemnation of this regime lead to various treaties—such as the Convention Against Apartheid and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court—which created and defined a “crime of apartheid.” This crime was held to mean “inhumane acts committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups, and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.” These “acts” included such things as “widespread” murder, enslavement, and so forth. The legal standard for labeling a government an “apartheid regime” is set quite high—indeed, so high that no country since the end of South African apartheid has ever received the distinction. As international human rights lawyers have observed, despite massive systematic oppression of racial and ethnic minorities in countries from China to Sri Lanka to Sudan, the apartheid label has never been applied to those countries by the U.S. or anyone else. Not surprisingly, given that it was defined in reaction to the particular policies of a particular regime, the crime of apartheid is not seen as a general concept, but rather a very specific type of crime. This makes its fairly sudden appearance in otherwise respectable discussions of Israeli-Palestinian diplomacy, and the possibility of its becoming part of the mainstream political discourse, particularly disconcerting.

The apartheid claim, as applied to Israel within the 1949 Armistice lines, is entirely absurd, with the Israeli Arab minority having full civil and political rights. The new apartheid accusation focuses on the West Bank, claiming that Israel denies Palestinians political participation on the basis of their ethnicity. (The legal definition of apartheid speaks of “racial,” rather than national or ethnic discrimination, but that is the least of the weaknesses with the apartheid accusation). That is to say, Palestinians cannot vote in Israeli elections.

The idea that Palestinians should have a right to vote in Israeli elections, however, rests on the false assumption that Israel governs them—and more specifically legislates for them. Ironically, even as the apartheid accusation was making more news than it ever had before, events transpired that proved this to be completely untrue. For example, the Palestinians left the peace process and joined 15 international organizations whose membership is open only to independent states. In addition, they began forming a national unity government between Fatah in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza. The Palestinians can only take such actions because, as a consequence of the Oslo Accords, they have their own government—or governments. In fact, over 95 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza live under the legislative control of the Palestinian Authority. The PA is, of course, a Palestinian government. It may be sometimes unclear whether the Palestinians are ruled from Ramallah or Gaza City, and their internal politics are far from democratic, but they are certainly not ruled from Jerusalem. Looked at objectively, there is nothing sinister in Palestinians not voting for Israeli Knesset members, any more than there is in Israeli settlers not voting in Palestinian elections. Each group votes for its own government—and the Palestinian government’s decisions dictate the vast majority of what happens in their daily lives.

http://www.thetower.org/article/the-apartheid-libel-a-legal-refutation/

At the end of the article he makes an important point, the apartheid label applied to Israel is not serious criticism, it's political demagoguery.

55 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Apartheid Libel: A Legal Refutation (Original Post) Mosby Jun 2014 OP
maybe ethnic cleansing would be more appropriate nt msongs Jun 2014 #1
I agree it may be more appropriate. Nt bravenak Jun 2014 #2
Yeah. That works too. GoneFishin Jun 2014 #4
You say it does not fit, but by your own description, it seems like it does. GoneFishin Jun 2014 #3
Every day more and more people are talking about Israeli Apartheid 4now Jun 2014 #5
If they do not like the label, it is in Israel's power to change their actions. bravenak Jun 2014 #6
the arab states are obsessed with israel Mosby Jun 2014 #10
Well the Arab countries are not what i am talking about. Israel has a healthy dose of hate for them. bravenak Jun 2014 #11
He wasn't talking about these countries being anti Israel King_David Jun 2014 #17
Whatever David. bravenak Jun 2014 #18
I'm not religious either King_David Jun 2014 #19
No David, you just made that up. bravenak Jun 2014 #20
Well then if that's not what you meant King_David Jun 2014 #21
I said many people, and i don't know why. bravenak Jun 2014 #22
Mosby' s graph said those countries were antiSemitic King_David Jun 2014 #23
Uh huh. bravenak Jun 2014 #24
Great rebuttal King_David Jun 2014 #25
Thanks David! bravenak Jun 2014 #26
... R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #14
So... Shaktimaan Jun 2014 #42
Because of the power they hold over the indiginous population. bravenak Jun 2014 #43
What about that qualifies as apartheid? Shaktimaan Jun 2014 #44
I don't think it is only Israel. bravenak Jun 2014 #45
What do you mean by colonialism? Shaktimaan Jun 2014 #49
I want to give the US back to the natives. bravenak Jun 2014 #50
Huh? Shaktimaan Jun 2014 #51
In other words i think colonialism is cruel to indigenous populations. bravenak Jun 2014 #53
Is there any way Shaktimaan Jun 2014 #54
Probably not because i'll get another hide. bravenak Jun 2014 #55
It seems to me those labeling the Jewish state an apartheid state King_David Jun 2014 #7
Sorry King but questioning or condemning the actions of the state tech3149 Jun 2014 #8
The ottomans ? King_David Jun 2014 #9
WOW!! Is that one massive diversion. tech3149 Jun 2014 #12
"mostly anti-zionist" King_David Jun 2014 #16
But the Jews were already there (In Palestine) Mosby Jun 2014 #29
You are correct Sir tech3149 Jun 2014 #35
Well Shaktimaan Jun 2014 #41
Um, no. Try as you may you cling to your victimizations R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #15
Here is the text of the Rome Statute and what is said about apartheid azurnoir Jun 2014 #13
So insert Jewish in place of white and you have the same thing. OregonBlue Jun 2014 #27
Minorities have full rights in Israel Mosby Jun 2014 #28
All I hear is that in the meantime, Israel is building settlements as fast as they can in the West OregonBlue Jun 2014 #34
Keep what? Shaktimaan Jun 2014 #52
This thread turned out quite well, indeed. Thank you for posting. Purveyor Jun 2014 #30
yes, it did Mosby Jun 2014 #31
Yes. the Israel critics do not dissapoint in pointing out Israeli apartheid. R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #36
Actually Shaktimaan Jun 2014 #37
Actually R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #38
Well Shaktimaan Jun 2014 #39
Try re-reading post #38 R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2014 #40
And to this day, no one has yet refuted a single point made in the article. n/t shira Jun 2014 #47
This message was self-deleted by its author Shaktimaan Jun 2014 #48
Agreed, King_David Jun 2014 #32
Kick and please do carry on. eom Purveyor Jun 2014 #33
The author seems to be arguing that Palestine should be recognised as an independent state shaayecanaan Jun 2014 #46

4now

(1,596 posts)
5. Every day more and more people are talking about Israeli Apartheid
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 08:36 PM
Jun 2014

It's good to see the topic being discussed here.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
6. If they do not like the label, it is in Israel's power to change their actions.
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 08:43 PM
Jun 2014

The PA has no authority over the actions of Israel and are not the ones arresting children and creating 'settlements' inside Palestinian territory or sending Israeli's to be adjudicated by military courts while Palestinians are under civil law. It's the other way around.

It is sinister. It is unseemly. It is wrong what they are doing to the children of Palestine. They get treated like the Negroes of the middle east and i know how it feels to be treated like a criminal just because of my race and that is exactly what i see when i do my daily reading of Israeli news.

I like to read the comments sections and boy oh boy, do they have a lot of anti American sentiments as well as not considering palestinians as a 'real' people. And don't let me get started on the anti black sentiments, i never knew how much i was despised by Israelis. It saddened my heart to see the nigg** go home rallies in the streets of Israel, the screaming of epithets at Israeli women who had the nerve to marry a Black jew. I thought it was in America because they were yelling in English, but no it was not us this time, thankfully.

Here's a bit of the anti african protest-http://m.



A member of the Knesset showed up to say nasty things at this one.
http://m.



There is a very serious problem there and that needs to be recognized by Israel in order to move forward. The racist attitudes and behaviors are the reason Israel stays under the microscope.
One may write long prosy articles explaining to the world that our eyes are lying, but we have it on video so, that's just not going to convince anybody that the occupation is not anything like apartheid. Because the proof is in the pudding, and it tastes like crap.

Mosby

(16,310 posts)
10. the arab states are obsessed with israel
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:50 PM
Jun 2014

It has nothing to do with some Israeli bigots.

Top 15 jew hating countries by percent antisemitic:



This is a very serious problem that needs to be addressed by the world in order to move forward.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
11. Well the Arab countries are not what i am talking about. Israel has a healthy dose of hate for them.
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:02 PM
Jun 2014

This is another problem many have with the supporters of Israel, when we speak of issues that they need to work on, the deflection ensues. Please do not try to point at another nation when we are discussing this one. It make me feel like you think i'm stupid enough to ignore this issue just because some other people are committing similar crimes.
It's no longer working.
We give Israel 3 billion plus dollars a year so we have a right to speak out about the unfair treatment of people under the jurisdiction of our ally who gets our vote in the UN to shield them from debilitating sanctions for their treatment of Palestinians. So when there is outcry it is our fault because we assist Israel in their occupation of Palestine.

So Israel hates The Arab nations and they hate Israel. That is not news. The Arab nations are not Occupying Israel. Israel IS occupying Palestine.

Perhaps the occupation of palestine has something to do with the fact that Arab countries seem anti Israel. I mean, they are occupying the land of Palestinian Arabs, why would you expect them to like Israel. They don't like Americans very much either, since we are oppressors too.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
17. He wasn't talking about these countries being anti Israel
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:23 AM
Jun 2014

He said antiSemitic .

Some poster even cheered your mistake .

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
18. Whatever David.
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:28 AM
Jun 2014

There are many who think critisizing Israeli policy is antisemitism. I have no idea why.
I was saying that it may not be that the countries are anti semitic, it seems like they are pro arab and Israel is in the process of oppressing Arabs, therefore they are anti Israel.
Being nonreligous i don't see what you see. I don't care what religion people are, i would prefer none at all.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
19. I'm not religious either
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:40 AM
Jun 2014

So you are saying these countries hate Jews and Jewish people in NYC and Florida and Argentina because Israel is anti Arab .

I guess if that's true then you are one of those people that conflate being anti Israel with being antiSemitic -- nothing wrong with that .

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
22. I said many people, and i don't know why.
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:48 AM
Jun 2014

You may need to read it again. I said what i said and you changed it to suit your needs. You often do that.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
23. Mosby' s graph said those countries were antiSemitic
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:55 AM
Jun 2014

You said "So Israel hates The Arab nations and they hate Israel. That is not news. The Arab nations are not Occupying Israel. Israel IS occupying Palestine. "

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
42. So...
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 09:59 PM
Jun 2014
The racist attitudes and behaviors are the reason Israel stays under the microscope.


Then why is only Israel accused of apartheid? Is Israel the most racist state in the ME? We know that it isn't even close to being that. So then why is only this one state "under the microscope" if racism is the issue that determines who is put there?
 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
43. Because of the power they hold over the indiginous population.
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 10:06 PM
Jun 2014

And the fact that they recieve billions in funding everyyear from my government makes me complicit in their crimes.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
44. What about that qualifies as apartheid?
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 05:59 AM
Jun 2014

As opposed to merely occupation, or possibly colonialism (a charge which is debatable at best.)

Are all occupations apartheid endeavors iyo? Certainly there are plenty of other states that exert at least as much control over disenfranchised people. The laws governing occupations acknowledge this directly. What exactly makes it apartheid; and why only Israel?

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
45. I don't think it is only Israel.
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 06:27 AM
Jun 2014

But Israel gets some of my tax money to do what they do, therefore i feel responsible for their crimes against the Palestinians. We give them money for weapons of war that they use against the indigenous population. We go to the UN and stop resolutions against them. We protect them from criticism and shield them. We don't give the other places billions of dollars to use for Iron domes and veto UN resolutions for them. We have a special relationship with Israel and with that there is a special responsibility to point these things out. It is our job as allies to help them see what they are doing. The world is losing patience and the sympathies have shifted in the Palestinians favor because of the length of time they have been occupying.
Oh and the age of colonialism is over. They started too late. We have the internet and can see it in real time so it looks as bad as it is. It looks terrible and i never even knew how bad until i started reading Israeli news.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
49. What do you mean by colonialism?
Mon Jun 23, 2014, 01:40 AM
Jun 2014

Are you referring to the settlements exclusively or all of Israel in general?

In your opinion is there any difference between settlements in places like east Jerusalem versus Ariel? Or do they all represent colonialism to you?

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
51. Huh?
Mon Jun 23, 2014, 02:22 AM
Jun 2014

I have no idea what you're saying? You mean that the US should grant sovereignty over the whole of America to the Native American tribes that were indigenous prior to European settlement?

Edit: in other words we should base our entire national policy entirely on ethnic distinctions?

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
53. In other words i think colonialism is cruel to indigenous populations.
Mon Jun 23, 2014, 02:59 AM
Jun 2014

We live our cushy lives while they live lives of horrors untold. We tell ourselves we must keep ourselves safe from them at all costs even at the cost of our own humanity. We take from them and excuse ourselves of any fault and say it is for the common good. Retribution will come.
We have no respect. We steal. We lie. We cheat. We fund terror against civilians. We pay for bullets that rips through childrens bodies and will not acknowledge our wrongs.
Future people will look back and know us as evil.


Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
54. Is there any way
Mon Jun 23, 2014, 03:06 AM
Jun 2014

You could be a little more succinct in your answers? I'm asking you about specific stuff and your replies are exceedingly cryptic.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
55. Probably not because i'll get another hide.
Mon Jun 23, 2014, 03:17 AM
Jun 2014

Basically i think most of the settlements are not legit. I see one group of people slowly but surely taking everything from a weaker group of people and pretending there is nothing wrong with it. And they are backed by my government and partially funded with my tax dollars. And we continue to blame the victim and shoot him in the back while calling him a terrorist.
I see theft and murder and arrogance.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
7. It seems to me those labeling the Jewish state an apartheid state
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:25 PM
Jun 2014

Or an apartheid picnic or whatever have a problem with Jews and are cloaking their hatred ... In a lot of our opinions.

tech3149

(4,452 posts)
8. Sorry King but questioning or condemning the actions of the state
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 09:46 PM
Jun 2014

do not qualify us as hating anyone. I have no objection of the existence of the state of Israel beyond the fact that it was in essence a colonialist action that had no respect or rights for those that already occupied the land.
Theodor Hertzel stated as much at the start of the Zionist movement.
Should those of Jewish faith or heritage choose to respect the rights of those who have lived on the land for more than a few generations and stop stealing their land, I'll curtail my criticism.

tech3149

(4,452 posts)
12. WOW!! Is that one massive diversion.
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:36 PM
Jun 2014

Just keep it in the last couple of centuries. How about we just look to the end of WW2 through 1967? Most Jews didn't really want their own "homeland" because they were mostly anti-zionist. There were many opportunities for settling around the world without displacing or disenfranchising those who were already there.

The at the time very functional CIA stated that establishing a Jewish state in Palestine would lead to a century of conflict. I Think they got what they asked for. Truly sad.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
16. "mostly anti-zionist"
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:22 PM
Jun 2014

Really?
1930-1944?
I guess you missed the point of the reason israel is the Jewish state .

Mosby

(16,310 posts)
29. But the Jews were already there (In Palestine)
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:23 PM
Jun 2014

For thousands of years in fact and I'm not even including biblical history.

Your wrong that "most Jews" did not support Israel, where in the world did you hear that?

tech3149

(4,452 posts)
35. You are correct Sir
Sun Jun 8, 2014, 07:48 AM
Jun 2014

But it is publicizing they had no problem living with there semetic bretheren before 1948.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
41. Well
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 08:45 PM
Jun 2014

That's simply untrue. As is the vast majority of everything else you posted. I'm curious as to where you're getting your information from. You're certainly not actually reading Herzl. That much is obvious.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
15. Um, no. Try as you may you cling to your victimizations
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 11:22 PM
Jun 2014

and dreams of claiming anti-Semitism the truth that you continually run from is that Israel is an apartheid state.

But please, victim on...

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
13. Here is the text of the Rome Statute and what is said about apartheid
Fri Jun 6, 2014, 10:47 PM
Jun 2014

Article 7: Crimes against humanity

1. For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:

(a) Murder;

(b) Extermination;

(c) Enslavement;

(d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population;

(e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;

(f) Torture;

(g) Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;

(h) Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;

(i) Enforced disappearance of persons;

(j) The crime of apartheid;

(k) Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.

2. For the purpose of paragraph 1:

(a) "Attack directed against any civilian population" means a course of conduct involving the multiple commission of acts referred to in paragraph 1 against any civilian population, pursuant to or in furtherance of a State or organizational policy to commit such attack;

(b) "Extermination" includes the intentional infliction of conditions of life, inter alia the deprivation of access to food and medicine, calculated to bring about the destruction of part of a population;

(c) "Enslavement" means the exercise of any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership over a person and includes the exercise of such power in the course of trafficking in persons, in particular women and children;

(d) "Deportation or forcible transfer of population" means forced displacement of the persons concerned by expulsion or other coercive acts from the area in which they are lawfully present, without grounds permitted under international law;

(e) "Torture" means the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, upon a person in the custody or under the control of the accused; except that torture shall not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions;

(f) "Forced pregnancy" means the unlawful confinement of a woman forcibly made pregnant, with the intent of affecting the ethnic composition of any population or carrying out other grave violations of international law. This definition shall not in any way be interpreted as affecting national laws relating to pregnancy;

(g) "Persecution" means the intentional and severe deprivation of fundamental rights contrary to international law by reason of the identity of the group or collectivity;

(h) "The crime of apartheid" means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime;

(i) "Enforced disappearance of persons" means the arrest, detention or abduction of persons by, or with the authorization, support or acquiescence of, a State or a political organization, followed by a refusal to acknowledge that deprivation of freedom or to give information on the fate or whereabouts of those persons, with the intention of removing them from the protection of the law for a prolonged period of time.

3. For the purpose of this Statute, it is understood that the term "gender" refers to the two sexes, male and female, within the context of society. The term "gender" does not indicate any meaning different from the above.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/icc/statute/part-a.htm

OregonBlue

(7,754 posts)
27. So insert Jewish in place of white and you have the same thing.
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:58 PM
Jun 2014

"This was done to ensure the perpetuation of white minority rule."

All you are doing is splitting hairs.

Mosby

(16,310 posts)
28. Minorities have full rights in Israel
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 01:17 PM
Jun 2014

The west bank and gaza are not part of Israel, they are disputed areas that might eventually become Palestine if the Palestinians ever decide to negotiate a settlement. In the meantime the PA and Israel have signed agreements allowing the IDF to provide security in the west bank and Gaza.



OregonBlue

(7,754 posts)
34. All I hear is that in the meantime, Israel is building settlements as fast as they can in the West
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:14 PM
Jun 2014

Bank. They have no intention of letting the Palestinians keep it. It's all a scam.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
52. Keep what?
Mon Jun 23, 2014, 02:32 AM
Jun 2014

The entire West Bank? No, of course not. But they're very open about that.

Or do you mean ANY of the West Bank? Because there's very little support for that kind of policy amongst Israelis across the political spectrum. If Israel did in fact try to annex the whole West Bank while denying its inhabitants citizenship and equal rights then there would indeed be undeniable apartheid. But that course of events is extremely unlikely and remains unpopular in part for exactly that reason. Israelis have no desire to transform their democracy into an apartheid state.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
39. Well
Wed Jun 11, 2014, 02:04 AM
Jun 2014

That may be so, but in this case it's not an opinion so much as a factual statement.

I realize you don't argue in any kind of straightforward or logical sense. Your refutations rarely include points relevant to the issue under discussion. Which is why this article is one you may want to read more carefully than most.

Response to shira (Reply #47)

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
46. The author seems to be arguing that Palestine should be recognised as an independent state
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 11:02 AM
Jun 2014
The idea that Palestinians should have a right to vote in Israeli elections, however, rests on the false assumption that Israel governs them—and more specifically legislates for them. Ironically, even as the apartheid accusation was making more news than it ever had before, events transpired that proved this to be completely untrue. For example, the Palestinians left the peace process and joined 15 international organizations whose membership is open only to independent states. In addition, they began forming a national unity government between Fatah in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza. The Palestinians can only take such actions because, as a consequence of the Oslo Accords, they have their own government—or governments. In fact, over 95 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza live under the legislative control of the Palestinian Authority. The PA is, of course, a Palestinian government. It may be sometimes unclear whether the Palestinians are ruled from Ramallah or Gaza City, and their internal politics are far from democratic, but they are certainly not ruled from Jerusalem.
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Israel/Palestine»The Apartheid Libel: A Le...