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4now

(1,596 posts)
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 04:45 PM Aug 2014

“Pro-Israel” people aren’t actually pro-Israel and Israel critics aren’t actually anti-semites



The Right Wing and even PEPs (Progressives Except on Palestine) like to perpetuate the lie that any criticism of Israel is essentially or practically anti-Israel or Anti-semitic. This is an absurd argument for many reasons.

1) Being a hawk does not make you patriotic: When the argument comes from PEPs, it’s dishonest or delusional, because as any “progressive” or liberal knows, it’s more than possible to be critical of a government without being against its people. In the case of the war in Iraq, for instance, people who opposed the war are not “anti-American.”

2) Being a hawk on Israel is anti-Israel and anti-Israeli: It could easily be argued, in fact, that the people who did not want America to enter into a war based on lies, which would create more anti-American sentiment abroad, kill and maim and sicken American soldiers and cost trillions of American taxpayer dollars are more “pro-American” than the “USA! USA! USA!” “pro-American” patriots who supported the war. It’s a fairly straightforward and simple concept. And one that PEPs should get. And when they defend Israel by asking, “What would the United States do?” I always respond, “They would do something similarly atrocious and you, yes, you would go to a demonstration in Union Square or Washington DC to protest it. But, because it’s Israel, you don’t.”

3) Zionism requires criticism of Israel. Although many of my cohorts on the Left would disagree, you can, I would strongly argue, be a Zionist and be critical of Israel at the same time. I have problems with J Street, the (relatively but not really) left alternative to AIPAC, especially since they have refused to condemn Israel’s attack on Gaza. But I think their goal of being “pro Israel, pro peace,” is a good tactic and a legitimate position, at least in theory. But the existence of Israel and the safety and security of its people is possible only with a two state solution, which is impossible under occupation. As the late Holocaust survivor, Zionist and pro-Palestinian, honorary French ambassador Stephane Hessel said,

The future of Israel depends, in my mind, on finding a way to have a neighbor with the Palestinians who can be a good and pleasant neighbor with whom one can work. But as long as one occupies that country, that makes this terrible business of Cast Lead on Gaza—those things are horrifying to my mind.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/06/pro-israel-people-arent-actually-pro-israel-and-israel-critics-arent-actually-anti-semites/
14 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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oberliner

(58,724 posts)
1. There is no group more right-wing than the anti-Zionist Jews in that photo
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 05:00 PM
Aug 2014

Neturei Karta: Fundamentalists in the truest sense of the word.

Mosby

(16,328 posts)
2. she should stick to comedy
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 05:20 PM
Aug 2014

Claiming that all Christian Zionists are anti-Semitic is just ridiculous.

I don't even get the the point she was making with the NK.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
3. What's most annoying is the straw man argument she starts with
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 05:37 PM
Aug 2014

"The Right Wing and even PEPs (Progressives Except on Palestine) like to perpetuate the lie that any criticism of Israel is essentially or practically anti-Israel or Anti-semitic. This is an absurd argument for many reasons."

No one actually makes that argument.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
4. Not in so blunt a statement, no
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 05:55 PM
Aug 2014

because when you say it like that, it does sound idiotic, doesn't it? Doesn't stop "you're an antisemite!" being the most common response to any and all criticism of Israel or Zionism.

It's like those posters here who will say "I don't support Likud" but yet, there they are, supporting everything likud does, never having a word of criticism for what the party heads say, and only ever attacking people who DO criticize the party.

So no, nobody says "If you criticize israel you hate jews!" - they just go around insisting that critics of Israel must all hate Jews.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
6. The exact opposite is clearly and bluntly stated regularly
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 06:03 PM
Aug 2014

Every article that talks about anti-semitism with respect to Israel starts out by saying that criticism of Israel is not anti-semitic in and of itself.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
7. And my point is, they then go and demonstrate otherwise
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 06:05 PM
Aug 2014

By your argument, someone who goes "I'm not racist, but..." before a racist rant must not really be a racist - they said they aren't!

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
9. Sometimes anti-semitism is involved
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 06:07 PM
Aug 2014

Just like sometimes anti-Arab prejudice is involved when people are critical of Arab countries in a way that they aren't critical of non-Arab countries who behave similarly.

Can we not agree on that much at least?

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
11. Sometimes it is involved, of course, but it's usually NOT.
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 06:20 PM
Aug 2014

Which is the problem. Accusations of antisemitism are used as a tool to silence opponents, rather than an honest notation of what that person believes or expresses.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
8. Yes, it's implied in other dubious manners. That person is over focused on Israel, that person
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 06:06 PM
Aug 2014

never looks over there>>>>>>>>>>>. There exists some barometer where only someone else
can decide the validity of what constitutes just criticism and how often one should object...suspect, suspect, suspect.

Silly stuff.



 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
5. Well, if they derive their Zionism from Christian theology...
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 05:58 PM
Aug 2014

Christianity holds that the Jews returning to israel heralds the end times - which will see God personally murder all but 144,00 of them, who will convert to Christianity and ascend to heaven.

of course a Christian can be a Zionist without theological reasoning. But... if you're a Zionist because you think it's essential for Jesus coming back and killing the Jews? yeah, that's... Exactly what it sounds like.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
10. In response to what point she was making with the NK
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 06:17 PM
Aug 2014

Check this out:

These Hasidic Jews were out showing their solidarity with Gaza. Their presence demonstrated the point that not all Jews support Israel, and therefore being anti-Semitic because of what's happening in Israel is stupid (not that I should really need to bother pointing that out, but there you go). However, they wouldn't give me an interview, because it was the Shabbat so they weren't allowed to be recorded on my dictaphone.

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/gaza-2014-london-protest-oscar-webb-boycott-westminster-141

I think that is the point she was trying to make.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
12. In fairness, most people don't know what NK is about
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 06:24 PM
Aug 2014

They see these rabbis - who are pretty much picture-perfect - rallying "for Palestine" and off the journalist goes, happy to report about these Jews for Palestine who look so very Jewish that nobody could ever doubt!

Which is of course entirely intentional on the part of neturei karta. I'd kinda like to someday see a learned reporter come up to them and ask them about all that bullshit they believe and ask why they're exploiting Palestine for that bullshit.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
14. So dumb.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 03:25 AM
Aug 2014
The Right Wing and even PEPs (Progressives Except on Palestine) like to perpetuate the lie that any criticism of Israel is essentially or practically anti-Israel or Anti-semitic. This is an absurd argument for many reasons.


Obvious straw man.
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