It appears once again here at DU we have folks who are all too eager to deny, minimize, or defend Hamas war crimes against their own people.

Funny how I'm assured by all that no one here is an apologist for Hamas, deflects from or defends Hamas crimes against humanity.

Read the article and you'll find claims by Gazans about being FORCED by Hamas to act as human shields. All of a sudden you're not interested, I gather? Makes you wonder what kind of questions HRW was asking Gazans in all their "eyewitness" interviews, none of which claimed Hamas forced people to do anything.

Look, I understand that your worldview and that of John Bolton are virtually identical, but the "D" in "DU" stands for "Democratic", so you see, continuously linking to right-wingers and neocons doesn't really help the credibility of your argument. All it does is demonstrate that you can't find any progressives that are saying the things you would like them to say.

Name a progressive Democrat in Congress or the Senate who shares your views about Israel. I want to see their support of the UN to get Israel for war crimes. I want to see their accusations of apartheid.

Well?

It's you who cannot find any elected progressives who share your views.

Here's a question. If your views on Israel are so popular among progressives, why do you constantly find yourself citing right-wingers? Why not leave out the right-wingers and cite the supposed progressives that share your worldview? I'm guessing it's because they don't exist. But if you have another explanation, I'd love to hear it.

I think you tried citing a legitimate source once, in the discussion about whether Jews were "indigenous" to Israel, but it turned out that the article you cited didn't actually say what you wanted it to say, so you hilariously changed strategy and insisted that what mattered was "what if" the article had actually said that Jews were indigenous (even though it didn't). LOL. I hadn't seen that strategy before. "No, up isn't actually the same as down, but what if it was." I can appreciate that after that embarrassment you want to stick to the right-wingers who will write exactly what you want them to write.

You realize you're on DemocraticUnderground, not ExtremeNutcakeFringeUnderground? It must suck for you that there are absolutely no Democrats you can vote for who share your "progressive" views on I/P.

You think Mudar Zahran made all that up for Gatestone?

Really, why don't you simply answer the question of why you keep linking to right-wingers? What else could it be? Just admit it. Progressives don't publish what you want them to.

I don't know the views of all elected Democrats, although I doubt that many as are virulently anti-Palestinian as you -- my views are pretty close to those of Jimmy Carter. Most are afraid to speak out against Israel due to AIPAC and other lobbies (although thankfully that seems to be changing a bit), the same way they are afraid to speak out against guns due to the NRA, and they were afraid to speak out agains the Patriot Act or the Iraq War. I'm sure you were in favor of the Iraq War and the Patriot act as well, and you used the fact that most Democrats voted for it as an excuse to push your right-wing views on DU like you are doing here.

http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140821/NEWS/408210325/-1/news11

Harry Reid recently....


http://www.reid.senate.gov/press_releases/2014-30-07-reid-remarks-condemning-the-united-nations-human-rights-council-resolution-against-israel

Yes, it's disappointing that so many Democrats are caving to the pressure of the Israeli lobby. I doubt that they would be citing John Bolton's think tank though.

Here are some articles from very progressive supporters of Israel:

http://www.dw.de/oz-lose-lose-situation-for-israel/a-17822511
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/its-not-easy-to-be-progressive/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-menachem-creditor/im-done-apologizing-for-i_b_5606650.html

I doubt they'd ignore the cries of Gazans accusing Hamas of war crimes.

People running for elected office have to be careful what they say, and placate various lobbies and special interests. There was a time when no elected Democrats supported gay rights. They was a time when the majority supported the Iraq War and virtually all of them supported the Patriot Act.

None of this changes the fact that your views on the subject are those of a right-wing neocon, which is why you routinely link to people like John Bolton. Progressives that aren't bound by fundraising and lobbying generally see the issue the way I do.

I'm not allergic to facts, logic, honesty, or accuracy when posting articles here. Facts are facts. Unless you have reason to believe Mudar Zahran is bullshitting everyone, you're just throwing feces around.

I'm also not a neo-con. They're extremely misguided as they are largely responsible for the mess that BOTH the US and Israel are in. The neo-cons (Bush) insisted on Gaza elections that eventually put Hamas in power. They had influence beyond Bush by welcoming the "elected" Muslim Brotherhood into power in Egypt & welcoming "democracy" throughout the mideast that turned into an Islamic Winter rather than an Arab Spring. You'll note that many so-called "progressives" on the fringe Left thought the Arab Spring and "democracy" throughout the mideast was a good idea. I bet you were one of them. You probably believe Hamas is the legit elected power in Gaza & that everyone should recognize they were elected there democratically. That's neo-con 101. Bringing wonderful "democracy" to the world, everywhere. Problem is Hitler was elected too...

You seem to have a serious aversion to actually reading my posts. You want to simplify everything to a bumper sticker.

LOL.


LOL. Actually, you might be even further right than the neo-cons.


Ding ding ding! Godwin strikes again!

You assured me you had no problem calling Hamas out for their war crimes.

And of your addiction to right-wing sources. As well as your peculiar anti-small-d-democratic views that I wasn't aware of until now.

was very enlightening. The source was so very much more important than the facts. It says a lot about you that you didn't mention, even once, what was reported in the piece. I personally find it predictably pathetic in that I KNEW you and others wouldn't want to discuss the behavior of hamas which from what I'm seeing, you have no problem with because you find whining about the source so much more important. Blame john bolton, blame the right wing, blame someone, ANYONE else than have to admit that hamas are nothing but a bunch of thugs who don't mind and even encourage dead Gazans - according to this Palestinian voice. Do you feel better now?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113481516
This is about war crimes Israel committed by attacking well-marked schools that were being used as civilian shelters.

You'll notice that in that thread, shira (who wrote this OP), didn't even bother to address the war crimes Israel committed, instead opting to attack the source. Do you find that "predictably pathetic"? Why didn't you chime in with your criticism in that case? Maybe you didn't read that OP? Well, now I've linked to it, here's your chance to call shira pathetic. Ball's in your court.

The difference, of course, is that HRW is one of the worlds most respected human rights groups, whereas John Bolton is a right-wing neo-con warmonger. Why do you think shira keeps having to resort to right-wing sources? My guess is that a non-right-wing source would present a fuller picture, which would include war crimes committed by Israel, and that would shatter the illusion that this is a simple "good guy - bad guy" situation.

I don't trust John Bolton's think tank to present the facts in a "fair and balanced" way, I don't know about you. If only right-wingers are saying something, maybe it's time to think twice about posting it.

This wasn't John Bolton making a claim. This was a Palestinian who lived it making the claim and instead of taking that on, you went after the source. And once again, you completely ignore the elephant in the room - that even Palestinians don't like hamas and know them to be the bloodthirsty thugs they are - a FACT completely ignored by many on DU. But continue to go after the source, it tells anyone watching all they need to know.

You can whine about hypocrisy all you want, I've called bibi an asshole and the settlement policy an abomination plenty of times. I have no problem calling out both sides when warranted. You don't - it's that simple.

The article was authored by a Palestinian who writes for a right-wing think tank. The Palestinian who wrote it didn't "live it", he's a writer who lives in the UK. Oh, and if you read the article, you'll find that the links he uses to substantiate his overall argument are links to the same right-wing think tank. In other words, this is just another right-wing think tank article.

Yes, I know that there are Palestinians who don't like Hamas and consider them thugs. There are also Israelis who don't like IDF and consider them war criminals. I consider Hamas to be murderous thugs and IDF to be war criminals. I've said that many times. It's really peculiar that you accuse me of failing to call out both sides.

The only hypocrisy here is that you are defending posts from a right-wing think tank, but then you are silent when shira ignores the content of an HRW article and only attacks the author.

Pardon me for not being interested in jumping through your hoops.

Here's a little more on your "Palestinian who lived it" (remotely from his home in the UK).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=81755

Wow. This guy is a complete lunatic. He thinks that the Palestinians should cede the West Bank to Israel! Does John Bolton even think that? Even most right-wingers don't even say stuff like that (at least not in public). Still sure you want to jump in bed with this guy?

The other links throughout this thread show w/o any question Hamas is forcibly preventing Palestinians from evacuating targeted military areas. They're shooting at them, FFS!

There's no real reason to doubt what Mudar Zahran is reporting via his telephone interviews.

Why not find someone who isn't a member of the lunatic right to report on Gaza? I'm guessing that it's because a progressive reporter will also report Israel's atrocities, something you wish to ignore.

If you can show that Mudar Zahran has lied before or made up things, then you'll have a point to make.

There's no reason to believe Zahran lied about his telephone interviews with Gazans.

There are some notable exemptions to that policy, but no one is required to be members of Hamas.

Mauro: What’s a more long-term solution to the conflict? An independent Palestinian state? What would Palestinians accept as a solution?

Zahran: This is all a wakeup call that no other solutions exist besides a Jewish Israel and a Palestinian Jordan with the Jordan River in between.

The Jordanian citizenship law states that all non-Jewish Palestinians are natural-born Jordanians, so those Gazans are Jordanians. If the king was willing to let them in, they wouldn’t be under the bombings now.

We need a Palestinian state and we already have one in Jordan. The problem is that King Abdullah refuses to recognize that. I have been warning for years that unless the world tolerates a Palestinian state in Jordan, more trouble was ahead and I believe my words ring true now.

http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/mudar-zahran-we-have-palestianian-state-jordan

...against Jordan eventually becoming a Palestinian state ruled by its own people.

Gatestone is polished up now due to this lost fellow..was that the idea?




snip* Buffer state


The "Jordan option" is deeply rooted in the idea that the eastern part of Jordan is part of the historic land of Palestine. Consequently many Israeli leaders, mostly but not solely from the Likud party, argue that the Palestinian population should be transferred "to that part of Palestine".


The idea, however, was given little credence before 1977, when the Likud party came to power for the first time. The Likud promoted the idea as an alternative to a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

In 1982, Yitzhak Shamir, who became the Likud prime minister in 1983, wrote that, "reduced to its true proportions, the problem is clearly not the lack of a homeland for the Palestinian Arabs. That homeland is Trans-Jordan, or Eastern Palestine .... A second Palestinian state to the west of the River is a prescription for anarchy."

But the "Jordan option" contravenes the tacit understanding reached by the founders of Israel and King Abdullah I that Israel would accept the establishment of a Hashemite-run state in east Jordan.

In fact, Israel's early leaders saw the Hashemite entity as both a buffer between Israel and the rest of the Arab world, and a state that could absorb those Palestinian refugees who fled or were expelled during the Arab-Israeli war of 1948 and the Six Day war in 1967.

But it is precisely the fact that Israeli leaders intentionally turned Jordan into the absorber of the largest Palestinian refugee population that is now being used to justify transforming it into a substitute homeland for the Palestinians and forcibly sending more.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2010/07/2010748131864654.html

...which defends Hamas war crimes and has employed an avid Nazi memorabilia collector who they assigned to Israel. I'd say that makes your source about 100x more rightwing than anything Mr. Zahran can muster up on his worst day.

Mr Zahran is a dope, and good luck selling this nonsense via Gatestone.

Last edited Sat Sep 20, 2014, 02:13 PM - Edit history (1)

...when they act as apologists defending Hamas fascists. Garlasco the nazi memorabilia fanatic was bad enough. Having 911 truther Richard Falk on their board for years given his rank antisemitism & support of Hamas & Iran was equally as bad. Gatestone has nothing on HRW's rightwingery and support for fascists.

Also FTR, you don't believe that Jordan rule should pass from Hashemite Monarchy to Palestinian rule, given 80% of the population is Palestinian? And no wiggling out for you. I'm not arguing Jordan should be Palestine so that Israel can take all the West Bank. It appears you're against a Palestinian state that would provide the Palestinians with 3X the amount of land that Israel would have. Making you far more anti-Palestinian than anything you can accuse your opponents of being.

Right wing critics and political allies for Israel hail against HRW but that wasn't the story, you
added that to give credence to what that dope is supporting through Gatestone. Which is a
right winged think tank. Who the hell do you think you're fooling, unless Israel is exonerated
from their violence in Gaza, you'll declare any human rights group as invalid and illegitimate.
You already threw B'Tselem under the bus too.

You damn well are hoping for Jordan to absorb the Palestinians and your 80% figure is
more manipulated bullshit.

Yea, I am totally against what the Palestinians want..alrighty, shira.

Jordan = Palestine just because 80% of the populace is of Palestinian origins (or descended from those who claim Palestinian origins), I would not be surprised if one day that Jordan is ruled by those people instead of the Hashemites. Nor would I be surprised if at that time they chose to unify with Palestine in to one state. However given how nationalism can work, that unification may never happen, instead you have two states with Palestinian majorities, Jordan and Palestine.

Yes, but 80% of Jordan isn't palestinian.

I'm not sure what this guy is talking about. I've never once heard of such a thing, besides the fact that we know for a fact that Jordan stripped all West Bank Palestinians of their Jordanian citizenship in 1988.

Not to mention that Jordan is a sovereign nation. Arguing that it should be turned into a palestinian state violates one of the foundational tenets of international law.

I'm sorry but this guy's argument is absurd.

Who loves ya baby? None other than Arutz Sheva, the Israeli pro-settlers publication



Jordanian-Palestinian activist Mudar Zahran is not a man who minces his words. In fact, his outspokenness against the Jordanian regime has made him a persona-non-grata in his own country, forcing him to seek asylum in the UK.

Zahran did not pull any punches Sunday afternoon, speaking at a conference entitled "Two States for Two People, on Two Sides of the Jordan River." Deriding the Jordanian ruling elite as "Armani-wearing, English-speaking autocrats" he called on all parties to consider a radically different track to the current peace initiatives based off of a "Two State Solution" which would see a Palestinian Authority-run state in Judea and Samaria.

The conference was held at Jerusalem's Menachem Begin Heritage Center, and organized by Professors for a Strong Israel, with the goal of fostering debate over alternatives to the "Two State Solution" which is currently on the table.

Zahran was the sole Palestinian Arab representative, but claimed to represent the "secular Palestinian majority" in Jordan, where between 60-80% identify as Palestinian, and which he believes hold the key to ending his people's conflict with Israel.

Arab, Israeli rights "not mutually exclusive"

He posited that the establishment of a Palestinian state in what is today Jordan would essentially solve the Arab-Israeli conflict in a way that was both practical and "historically just" for both peoples, and further claimed that such an eventuality was "inevitable," given what he saw as the increasing instability of the ruling Hashemite regime.

On the one hand, Zahran said that he understood why many Israelis oppose the establishment of a Palestinian state in Judea and Samaria (also known as the "West Bank&quot , noting the region's strategic and historical importance to the Jewish State. Jews have lived in the area for more than 3,500 years, and its position in the center of the country, stretching to within 8 miles of the coast and overlooking Israel's main population centers, mean that its surrender to the PA would render Israel extremely vulnerable to attack.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/171308#.VB3rAld5U2U

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/09/19/senior-israeli-officer-in-gaza-saw-hamas-fighter-seize-children-as-shields-after-firing-at-idf-forces-interview/

Buried within Guardian article:



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/20/palestine-fatah-hamas-egypt-gaza-reconciliation-talks

It's what I always knew but it's the behavior of fellow posters I find so interesting. If Palestinians are less than perfect in speaking to who DUers consider right wings sources, then their voice is meaningless. It shows such care for actual Palestinians who speak out. Now we know they have to speak to the correct sources and they have to be ones that DU consider correct or else they'll be ignored or mocked. Very, very interesting.

....they couldn't give a rat's ass about the Palestinians they claim to care about.

Not a new story.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/06/hamas-shoots-fatah-member-in-legs-forces-him-to-be-human-shield/

Hamas admits it DID use schools and hospitals in Gaza Strip as 'human shields' to launch rocket attacks on Israel - but claims it was 'mistake'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2753176/Hamas-DID-use-schools-hospitals-Gaza-Strip-human-shields-launch-rocket-attacks-Israel-admits-says-mistake.html#ixzz3DxPKylzI
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113481673

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Exclusive-Hamas-threatened-UNRWA-personnel-at-gun-point-during-Gaza-war-375051

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Report-Hamas-executes-alleged-spies-shoots-protesters-in-Gaza-369331

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113472763

more starting here in DU thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113471416#post78

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180400/hamas-killed-160-palestinian-children-to-build-terror-tunnels#undefined

“At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling ‘unity government’ in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html

From the Goldstone Report:

https://archive.org/stream/GoldstoneReport_456/GoldstoneReport_djvu.txt

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/unrwa-investigating-20-rockets-empty-gaza-school-palestinian

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools

During the lull, a group of men at a mosque in northern Gaza said they had returned to clean up the green glass from WINDOWS shattered in the previous day’s bombardment. But they could be seen moving small rockets into the mosque.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/gaza-residents-scramble-to-make-most-of-five-hour-truce/2014/07/17/e5485fce-0d7e-11e4-8341-b8072b1e7348_story.html

http://www.timesofisrael.com/ceasefire-efforts-gather-pace-as-idf-death-toll-reaches-25/

“I am standing with a very heavy heart,” says Ban Ki-moon. “As we speak there are rockets from Hamas and Islamic Jihad CONTINUED to be fired in Israel.”

“We condemn strongly the rocket attacks. These must stop immediately. We condemn the use of civilians sites, SCHOOLS, hospitals and other civilian facilities for military purposes. No country would accept the rockets raining down on its territory. All countries and parties have an obligation to protect its citizens.”

In fact, there was a rocket alert in the south as Ban spoke in Tel Aviv.

The presence of militant fighters in Shejaia became clear Sunday afternoon when, under the cover of a humanitarian truce intended to allow both sides to remove the dead and wounded, several armed Palestinians scurried from the scene.

Some bore their weapons openly, slung over their shoulder, but at least two, disguised as women, were seen walking off with weapons partly concealed under their robes. Another had his weapon wrapped in a baby blanket and held on his chest as if it were an infant.

The shelling of Shejaia took its toll of the civilian population there. While the Israelis had warned citizens two days earlier to leave, many had refused in large part because Hamas said it expected people to remain.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/thousands-flee-gaza-homes-as-israel-expands-ground-assault/article19683732/

Israel received a strong back-wind from an unlikely source on Tuesday, when the EU issued a statement strongly denouncing Hamas and condemning their use of civilians as human shields.

The EU's foreign ministers, following a monthly meeting in Brussels, issued a statement on the Middle East condemning “the indiscriminate firing of rockets into Israel by Hamas and militant groups in the Gaza Strip, directly harming civilians. These are criminal and unjustifiable. The statement also called on Hamas to immediately put an end to its rocket attacks, and to renounce violence. “All terrorist groups in Gaza must disarm. The EU strongly condemns calls on the civilian population of Gaza to provide themselves as human shields. “ Regarding civilian losses inside Gaza Strip, the statement “condemns the loss of hundreds of civilian lives, among them many women and children.”

“While recognizing Israel's legitimate right to defend itself against any attacks, the EU underlines that the Israeli military operation must be proportionate and in line with international humanitarian law,” the statement read. The statement said the EU was “particularly appalled by the human cost” of the operation in Shejaia, and is “deeply concerned at the rapidly deteriorating humanitarian situation.” The foreign ministers called on all sides to immediately implement a cease fire.

One senior diplomatic official said that Israel was pleased with the statement, even though after dealing with the Gaza situation it went on to repeat the EU's well-known position regarding a two state solution, settlements and negotiations.

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/EU-calls-on-Hamas-to-disarm-condemns-use-of-civilians-as-shields-368509

http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-targets-hospital-hamas-used-as-firing-position/#ixzz38IsQZZUP

Confirmed by reporter:
https://twitter.com/harryfear/status/489856745263865856

On video:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4548760,00.html

http://www.wafa.ps/arabic/index.php?action=detail&id=183233

Also at end of this article:
http://new.elfagr.org/Detail.aspx?nwsId=685585

The Japanese daily Mainichi’s correspondent in Gaza reported on 21 July: Hamas criticizes that “Israel massacres civilians”. On the other hand, it tries to use evacuating civilians and journalists by stopping them and turning them into “human shields”, counteracting thoroughly with its guerrilla tactics… Hamas’s “Human Shield” strategy is also aimed at foreign journalists…During the current battle, Hamas’s checkpoint was bombarded, and there was temporary checkpoint at another location. To some 20 journalists who wished to leave, Hamas staff member suddenly told, “Israel closed the checkpoint… However, when I called IDF personnel at the checkpoint, he said that “We haven’t got attacked and we are open as usual…”. While were discussing what to do, the same Hamas staff member shouted, “in 5 minutes Israel seems to conduct an airstrike on here. Return immediately to Gaza!” All the journalists returned to Gaza by car. But we remembered that Hamas, during the conflict with Israel in November 2012, also closed checkpoints to block outflow.

http://eskup.elpais.com/1406592455-c0d94835e73c8a5c1004ae1b2d1065c4

Isn't it amazing how easy it is for Hamas to get Bibi to do exactly what Hamas wants Bibi to do!!

Fuck 'em all!

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=1304