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shira

(30,109 posts)
Sun Sep 21, 2014, 07:29 PM Sep 2014

Dear Fellow Liberals: I知 Done Apologizing for Israel

Some years ago, I was seated at dinner next to a British law professor, whom my husband, also a law professor, had invited to a conference that he’d organized. The conversation soon turned, as conversation often does among professional intellectuals, to Israel, specifically to the then-recent conflict between Israeli soldiers and Palestinian fighters in the West Bank town of Jenin, which my dinner partner (and much of the European press) referred to as the “massacre of Jenin.”

Oops—forgot about it already? Here’s a refresher: in 2002, the IDF went into Jenin during the Second Intifada, after Israel determined that the town served as a launching pad for missile and rocket attacks against Israeli civilians. The 10-day operation claimed the lives of around 50 Palestinian gunmen, and 23 Israeli soldiers. My acquaintance, after repeating Palestinian claims of atrocities committed by Israeli forces—claims that had already been roundly debunked—capped off his assessment by saying, “What happened in Jenin was no more and no less than another Holocaust.”

As a liberal American Jew, I’m TIRED of apologizing for Israel’s actions regarding its own security, and as of last month, I’m done with it. I’m done for the following two reasons: my eldest child, Sam, motivated by a desire to do something more meaningful than argue about religion, policy and politics, is currently serving as a lone soldier in the IDF, and he spent much of July in Gaza, as part of a team dismantling terror tunnels. In New Jersey, where the rest of his family lives, we didn’t know, from one day to the next, if we’d ever see him again. The second reason is that Israel, despite its highly imperfect record (unlike that of, say, America or France or England or Pakistan or Kenya or Argentina…) is the world’s sole guarantee against another frenzy of murderous hatred against my people, a hatred that is once again raising its voice, and fists, not only among the dispossessed Muslim residents of Europe, but, most especially, in the official organs of the chattering, and highly influential, classes—so much so that the off-hand remarks of my long-ago dinner companion seem almost reasonable.

Facts are such nifty things, so solid, so sure. Yet we as a species don’t seem to cotton to them, especially when it comes to Jews.

more...
http://time.com/3399557/deaths-middle-east/

22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Dear Fellow Liberals: I知 Done Apologizing for Israel (Original Post) shira Sep 2014 OP
more from OP... shira Sep 2014 #1
So many shit fallacies in so many places Scootaloo Sep 2014 #2
It really larded on the propaganda, didn't it! nt procon Sep 2014 #3
I have to take out the trash Aerows Sep 2014 #4
No rush Scootaloo Sep 2014 #6
I dunno this is the second thread with "I'm done apologizing for Israel" in the title yet that's all azurnoir Sep 2014 #22
It the Israeli propaganda hour! BillZBubb Sep 2014 #5
A mothers love whosinpower1 Sep 2014 #7
an occupation only a mother could love. nt geek tragedy Sep 2014 #8
I guess Time doesn't do fact-checking on opinion pieces. DanTex Sep 2014 #9
Well that's Amnesty, who to this day denies Palestinian human shielding.... shira Sep 2014 #10
LOL. Yes, of course, some random woman writing an opinion article for Time has more credibility DanTex Sep 2014 #11
Yeah, she does actually. You've seen all the evidence yourself.... shira Sep 2014 #12
We're gonna have to agree to disagree here. DanTex Sep 2014 #13
You're pretending it's just rightwing sources & some random woman.... shira Sep 2014 #14
Actually, Amnesty International also criticizes Hamas extensively. DanTex Sep 2014 #15
But you realize Hamas is definitely using human-shields, so the question is.... shira Sep 2014 #16
Again, Amnesty and HRW have held Hamas accountable for many war crimes, DanTex Sep 2014 #17
They've downplayed & ignored major war crimes like human-shielding shira Sep 2014 #18
In the end, we basically have different approaches to seeking the truth. DanTex Sep 2014 #19
Just to add, an equally if not more persuasive case could me made that Amnesty, HRW, etc. DanTex Sep 2014 #21
evidence? you mean video's of people protecting neighbors and their own homes from IDF bombings? azurnoir Sep 2014 #20
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
1. more from OP...
Sun Sep 21, 2014, 07:30 PM
Sep 2014

In Pakistan, one human rights group estimates that 1,000 women are murdered in honor killings by their families every year. In Nigeria, Islamic militants have killed more than 1,500 people in 2014, according to Amnesty International. And the death toll from the slaughter in Syria—just spitting distance from Israel—adds up to a robust 191,000. But the world—or at least the world as personified by the British law professor with his fondness for exaggeration—doesn’t pay a lot of attention to these Muslim but non-Palestinian corpses. Nope: you’ve got to be a dead person in Gaza or Hebron to claim the world’s sympathy. Merely being an Arab, or a Muslim, doesn’t cut the mustard, because when Muslims are murdering other Muslims—like more than 2,400 Iraqis killed by other Iraqis in June of this year. The civilized world, or at least the chattering classes, does little more than shrug.

Instead, from the Telegram we get this “Gaza conflict ‘causing PTSD in children’ after seeing dead bodies and witnessing heavy shelling.” From the Times: “UN demands halt to Gaza incursion as tanks smash hospital.” A simple Google search will net you hundreds of like-minded headlines. By the way, guess how many citizens were killed during the second half of last year in Egypt? According to the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace: 3,143.

But it’s more satisfying to focus on Israel, that miniscule sliver of desert with an equally miniscule population (some 6 million Jews and 1.7 million primarily Muslim Arabs), hemmed in on one side by hostile Arab countries whose Muslim populations add up to a healthy 320 million, give or take, and the other by the Mediterranean Sea. Because Israel isn’t just any other imperfect Democracy, with a host of domestic and international problems of its own. Oh no. Not to put too fine a point on it, but we’re talking a whole country filled primarily with Jews. So the whole place is only as big as the State of New Jersey, while the rest of the Middle East is about the size of 90 percent of the contiguous United States? So what?

Why is it so hard for the world to wake up to its blindness and see that once again it’s easier to focus on the moral shortcomings, real or imagined, of Jews, than to grapple with actual slaughter? From the point of view of the Muslim nations, I get it: let Israel take the heat for the crappy conditions and even worse governance under which vast numbers of Muslims live. Easier to blame Jews than to run your own country with a modicum of basic human decency.

I’m not suggesting that Muslim lives are worth less than Jewish ones. Nor that the mainly Arab occupants of Gaza and the West Bank don’t have legitimate grievances, including—especially—the deaths, mainly from aerial bombing, of citizens. Merely that the magnitude of Palestinian loss, when looked at through the lens of numbers alone, pales compared to that suffered by their co-religionists.

Put another way: what if Israel were a self-professed Maronite country? A country of mainly secular Protestants and lapsed Catholics—or a majority-Arab democracy? Would anyone give a rat’s ass if it used armed force against a terrorist group whose raison d’etre is the destruction of their country and the murder of its citizens?

It’s not just in left-leaning Europe that the anti-Jewish rhetoric is getting louder. Here in America, Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP), calling for self-determination of Palestinians while denying the right to self-determination for Jews, has offshoots on more than eighty campuses. And in New Haven, here’s what The Rev. Bruce M. Shipman, the (recently resigned) Episcopal chaplain at Yale University, wrote in a letter to the editor that was recently published in The New York Times: “As hope for a two-state solution fades and Palestinian casualties continue to mount, the best antidote to anti-Semitism would be for Israel’s patrons abroad to press the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for final-status resolution to the Palestinian question.” In other words, recent anti-Semitic violence in Europe, notably Paris, is the fault of Jewish moral failings. In other words: Jews deserve it. And what, after all, did the Jewish State of Israel do? It went after the terror tunnels. It said no to the bombing of its civilians. It said that they meant it when they said “never again.”

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
2. So many shit fallacies in so many places
Sun Sep 21, 2014, 07:40 PM
Sep 2014

Sadly I'm in the middle of dinner and am having an otherwise enjoyable evening, and just lack the time to dissect this drivel as it deserves.

Anyone else want to be tagged in for the job?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
4. I have to take out the trash
Sun Sep 21, 2014, 09:33 PM
Sep 2014

and clean the kitchen after making a great meal. I might get to it after I brush the cat and paint my toenails.

Only so much time in a day to devote to important things. Oh wait, I think I need to change the air conditioner filter and clean the grout. *checks phone*.

I'll schedule that in for September 31, 2 pm.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
22. I dunno this is the second thread with "I'm done apologizing for Israel" in the title yet that's all
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 07:36 PM
Sep 2014

both seem to do, that or attempt to distract and finger point so speaking for myself here I'm starting when will the titles reflect the article they go with, when will the 'apologizing' disguised as finger pointing and but see they're worse actually be over and done with?

whosinpower1

(85 posts)
7. A mothers love
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 12:48 AM
Sep 2014

Will always want to support the decisions the son made-especially when that son willingly puts himself in danger via joining a military.

Of course she won't criticize Israel. I doubt she ever apologized for anything Israel did.







DanTex

(20,709 posts)
9. I guess Time doesn't do fact-checking on opinion pieces.
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 10:34 AM
Sep 2014

In case anyone's interested, here's the Amnesty International investigation of 2002 Jenin, which details war crimes including unlawful killings, use of human shields, and denial of humanitarian aid.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/143/2002/en/c79afe78-d7bc-11dd-b4cd-01eb52042454/mde151432002en.html

For example:

The IDF systematically compelled Palestinians to take part in military operations. Several Palestinians interviewed by Amnesty International in relation to other subjects said that they had been compelled to take part in military operations and as "human shields". These practices violate international humanitarian law. Although the IDF announced through the State Attorney on 24 May 2002 that it would not use civilians in military operations, Amnesty International has continued to receive reports of cases in which Palestinians were used by members of the IDF during military operations, including as "human shields" (see, for example, the description of the case resulting in the killing of Fares al-Sa’adi above).


On 21 June 2002, two months after Operation Defensive Shield, during the first days of Operation Determined Path and the IDF reoccupation of the West Bank, the IDF shot from a tank at Dr Samer al-Ahmad, and killed two brothers, six-year-old Ahmad and 12-year-old Jamil Yusuf Ghazawi, seriously wounding their brother, Tareq, and Dr al-Ahmad.
Following an IDF announcement that the curfew was lifted, six-year-old Ahmad Ghazawi took a shekel from his father to buy candy. He went with his brothers Jamil, aged 12, and Tareq, aged 11. The area where the family lives is a residential area on the edge of Jenin city, in Area C (under full Israeli control). Part of the incident was caught on video by a neighbour on a rooftop. The film showed Dr Samer al-Ahmad’s car and seven children (aged between six and 12) four of them riding about on bicycles. There was no sound of firing, but suddenly there was a red flash and a blast. Ahmad was dead with one leg severed and the other almost severed, Jamil was covered in cuts and blood and Tareq lay near an electricity pole with a hole in his side and stomach.
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
10. Well that's Amnesty, who to this day denies Palestinian human shielding....
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 03:19 PM
Sep 2014

....despite all the overwhelming evidence throughout the years. They've claimed "no evidence exists" for the past decade. They're absolute jokes on I/P.

Who gives a shit what they say?

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
11. LOL. Yes, of course, some random woman writing an opinion article for Time has more credibility
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 03:51 PM
Sep 2014

than Amnesty International. I'm sure those children that Amnesty reported by name that were killed, Amnesty was just making that up.

I hope you keep pushing this talking point. It's a great illustration of the absurd lengths of denial that you have to go to in order to maintain your worldview.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
12. Yeah, she does actually. You've seen all the evidence yourself....
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 03:54 PM
Sep 2014

Amnesty is full of shit, defending fascist terrorists who cynically use human shields.

You can keep ignoring/denying the evidence, but that says more about yourself than anything else. Gazans are literally crying out for help against Hamas and Amnesty won't do a damned thing to advocate for them.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
13. We're gonna have to agree to disagree here.
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 03:58 PM
Sep 2014

I'll get my facts from detailed investigations by world's most respected human rights organizations, you can stick to John Bolton and some random woman who's never even been to Gaza.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
14. You're pretending it's just rightwing sources & some random woman....
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 05:54 PM
Sep 2014

I linked to at least half a dozen other links (not rightwing) that report the same story. You're ignoring all of them in your blind devotion to an Israel-bashing source that you cannot criticize, no matter the amount of evidence provided.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
15. Actually, Amnesty International also criticizes Hamas extensively.
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 05:57 PM
Sep 2014

As I've said many times before, I, along with Amnesty, HRW, and the rest of the reality-based community recognize that both sides have violated international humanitarian law in this conflict on many occasions. The reason you like the right-wing sources so much is because they ignore Israel's crimes.

For example, the woman in this OP claiming that "50 gunmen" were killed, omitting the fact that civilians and children were also killed, and the rest of the war crimes evidenced by Amnesty and others.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
16. But you realize Hamas is definitely using human-shields, so the question is....
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 06:00 PM
Sep 2014

...why do Amnesty and HRW feel they have to deny the human-shielding accusation.

You can't blame me for ignoring Amnesty and HRW when they defend Palestinian human-shielding. I know why they do this, but I'm asking you for your opinion as to why they do it. Acknowledging that Hamas forces Gazans to be human shields is bad because.......?

What do you think?

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
17. Again, Amnesty and HRW have held Hamas accountable for many war crimes,
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 06:12 PM
Sep 2014

including endangering civilians by conducting operations and storing munitions in civilian areas. So to say they are defending human shielding is ridiculous. They investigate war crimes extensively, much more so than the right-wing think tanks where you get your information.

You would like to believe that all Israeli atrocities are justified and it's all Hamas's fault "because human shields." This is not true, and human rights groups won't tell you what you want to hear, so you go to the right-wingers instead.

We've already been over this before. Do we really need to do it again?

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
18. They've downplayed & ignored major war crimes like human-shielding
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 06:45 PM
Sep 2014

You know this but you don't care. In that thread about Hamas war crimes, there are at least 6 other articles/videos corroborating Mudar Zahran's interviews with Gazans. You'd rather ignore all that and accuse me of only using rightwing sources.

How utterly disingenuous, but hardly surprising. Lies and ad hominem is about all you really have.

Your blind devotion to these Israel bashing groups makes it impossible for you to criticize them for anything. As much as you accuse your opponents of blind devotion to Israel and being against any criticism of Israel, you show you're describing yourself when you make such accusations.

There are PLENTY more crimes HRW and Amnesty have ignored like:

-Using ambulances for military purposes
-Using children in combat roles
-Misfired rockets hit their own people
-Using a hospital to shield themselves from military attack

They ignore these for the same reason they ignore human-shielding. If they were to acknowledge all these crimes rather than downplaying or denying them, this would be bad because ___________? Looks like you know the answer:

You would like to believe that all Israeli atrocities are justified and it's all Hamas's fault "because human shields."


Bravo! That's exactly why HRW continues to ignore all these war crimes. I never said this makes anything Israel does "justified", but acknowledging these war crimes deals a heavy blow to the Israel bashers who'd rather pretend Israel always targets civilians out of pure malice. Making Israel out to be baby-killers is MUCH more important than holding Hamas accountable for Gazan lives, which goes to show how compromised and depraved HRW and Amnesty really are.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
19. In the end, we basically have different approaches to seeking the truth.
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 07:17 PM
Sep 2014

I tend to lend credence to extensive investigations by impartial groups that are dedicated and respected throughout the world for their work on human rights. You take the word of the Israeli government and right-wing think tanks, which unsurprisingly ignore and attempt to exonerate IDF's role in the atrocities they commit.

And, in order to keep believing what the Israeli government says, you also have to come up with this strange conspiracy theory that the worlds leading human rights groups are all somehow "biased" against Israel, even though there is no plausible motivation for them to do so -- if anything their biases would be pro-Israel, since orgs like HRW and Amnesty are Western in their orientation, much closer to Israel than to Palestine (Ken Roth is Jewish, for example). Nevertheless, I believe they've done a good job in remaining unbiased and holding both sides to account for their transgressions. As you know, Israel is engaged in a full-time propaganda and political pressure offensive, trying to prevent groups like HRW and Amnesty from doing their jobs and trying to affect the outcome of their investigations in various ways.

If you want to see what the result of an extensive and detailed investigation looks like, here's an example. If you read it, you'll find that both Israel and Hamas are found to have violated humanitarian law.
http://www.amnesty.org/ar/library/asset/MDE15/015/2009/en/8f299083-9a74-4853-860f-0563725e633a/mde150152009en.pdf

As you know, the most recent events in Gaza have not been fully investigated yet, so obviously neither of us know how they are going to turn out. However, I'm sure you agree that it's wise to wait until all the evidence is compiled by competent experts like those at HRW and Amnesty rather than sporadic anecdotes that filter their way up to the right-wing media. This goes both ways, btw: there were various reports of a "Jenin Massacre" in the event referenced by the OP, but after detailed investigation, Amnesty HRW and others found that there wasn't a large scale massacre, although war crimes were definitely committed.

BTW, are you still denying that children were killed in Jenin? Or are you standing by the OP's claims that all the Palestinians killed were gunmen. And if you don't deny that children were killed, why post an OP by someone who you know is lying?



Bravo! That's exactly why HRW continues to ignore all these war crimes. I never said this makes anything Israel does "justified", but acknowledging these war crimes deals a heavy blow to the Israel bashers who'd rather pretend Israel always targets civilians out of pure malice. Making Israel out to be baby-killers is MUCH more important than holding Hamas accountable for Gazan lives, which goes to show how compromised and depraved HRW and Amnesty really are.

Actually, I don't think that either Amnesty or HRW has called Israel baby-killers or said that they always target civilians out of pure malice. They simply document war crimes as they have occurred. The hyperbole here is all yours. And also, as has been pointed out many times, war crimes of one side don't absolve the other side of the responsibility to protect civilians. Accurately documenting Hamas's war crimes isn't about Israel, it's about the truth.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
21. Just to add, an equally if not more persuasive case could me made that Amnesty, HRW, etc.
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 07:32 PM
Sep 2014

are minimizing Israeli war crimes. For example, despite the fact that Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai as said the “goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages" (referring to 2012), or that Gilad Sharon has said that "we need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza.” Despite these statements that indicate an intent to commit genocide, HRW and Amnesty have not accused Israel of intentionally killing civilians, instead using more equivocal language:

After conducting an investigation, Human Rights Watch (HRW) issued a report on Wednesday accusing Israel of carrying out “unlawful” strikes in Gaza, ones that “either did not attack a legitimate military target or attacked despite the likelihood of civilian casualties being disproportionate to the military gain.” It noted that “Such attacks committed deliberately or recklessly constitute war crimes.” HRW Middle East Director Sarah Leah Whitson also added that Israel’s actions raise “serious questions as to whether these attacks are intended to target civilians or wantonly destroy civilian property.”

And I think this is the correct thing to do. Even though there are many clear indications of intent by Israeli leaders to inflict collective punishment (the ones above, "putting Gaza on a diet", "mowing the lawn", etc.), the job of groups like HRW and Amnesty is to gather the facts on the ground and come to conclusions that are best supported by the evidence.

Here's a good Salon article about the topic which includes citations for the quotes I've given.
http://www.salon.com/2014/07/18/israels_military_has_no_moral_superiority_and_its_time_the_media_covered_gaza_fairly/

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
20. evidence? you mean video's of people protecting neighbors and their own homes from IDF bombings?
Mon Sep 22, 2014, 07:31 PM
Sep 2014

and yes Gazans are crying out for help -with rebuilding, with ending the blockade which has rendered their lives hopeless ending IDF/ShinBet blackmailing/abusing those seeking medical treatment outside of Gaza. HRW and Amnesty, and B'tselem have all spoken out on these issues which 'some here' seem to pretend do not exist or perhaps outright ignore

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