Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumAnti-Zionist Jews Desecrate Yad Vashem With ‘Blood Bucket Challenge’ (VIDEO)
Jew-baiting.
Borrowing a page from the playbook of Ohio student leader Megan Marzec, who posted a notorious anti-Israel “Blood Bucket Challenge” video (as a spinoff of the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge) in September, Jews Against Genocide parroted the gory routine at a number of sites in Israel.
Perhaps most offensive was the group’s “Blood Bucket Challenge” at Yad Vashem, Israel’s official memorial to the victims of the Holocaust. Watch the video below.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/10/01/anti-zionist-jews-desecrate-yad-vashem-with-%E2%80%98blood-bucket-challenge%E2%80%99-video/
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Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Neon-pink water is gory, huh?
As usual, taking greater offense at "self-hating Jews" (cute comment on the article by "DocReality" - anyone you know?) who speak up, than at the actual killing of people that those men and women are speaking up about.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)"Seafoid" comes right off the bat with "Yad Vashem is such a fraud" - anyone you know?
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/09/against-genocide-challenge
shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)The least you could do is acknowledge that.
Second, they're not self-hating Jews at all. They love who they are. They're the "good" Jews, better than the rest...
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)What's vile is the mass killing and oppression of people. You know, actual harm? Long-term pain and suffering? The situation that these people are in protest of?
I wonder if that registers for you at all?
shira
(30,109 posts)To paint Jews, not merely the IDF or Israeli government, as the genocidal maniacs, the once oppressed who have become the oppressor.
It's sick. Howard Jacobson wrote about this:
Jew baiting.
Jews get killed around the world because of depraved blood libels like these.
What kind of genocidal Jewish state warns its enemy's civilian population to move out of harm's way, provides tons of humanitarian aid, sets up field hospitals at the border, all while its own population is being attacked with thousands of rockets?
This is beyond ignorance.
And anti-zionists for BDS wonder why they're not taken seriously?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And I don't know if you noticed, but Israel really is oppressing people. Israel really is killing people. Israel really is throwing men, women, and even children into prisons for political reasons. israel really is seizing the rightful property of people, because israel really does operate on a philosophy of race supremacy.
Now, I've never been to Yad Vashem. But I understand the principle of the place. And it seems to me that a nation and movement that revolves around the purge of a so-believed lesser people in order to make room for a legally-declared superior race... is really contrary to that principle.
You should be more outraged, more upset by the actual violation of those principles, than by dye on the sidewalk. You should be more upset that millions live under oppressive military rule, their lives continuing only at the whim of their invading rulers, than by a message against that situation. You should have more of a problem with a nation that marauds, kills, invades, and oppresses and claims to do so in the name of the Jewish people, than by Jews referencing Jewish history to oppose that carnage.
But you don't.
shira
(30,109 posts)...why the anti-zionist movement is considered to be a hate movement that is beyond the pale and not at all taken seriously.
For example...
Did you read this in a comic book somewhere? Because it's dumb as hell.
What race are the Jewish people? More than half of Israel's Jews are non-white, many of whom are browner than Palestinians. It could be argued that Israel's Jews and Palestinians are the SAME race.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Trick question, there's no difference, except one requires a little less typing to say.
Now. Any chance of actually responding to what I'm saying shira? A reminder;
You should be more outraged, more upset by the actual violation of those principles, than by dye on the sidewalk. You should be more upset that millions live under oppressive military rule, their lives continuing only at the whim of their invading rulers, than by a message against that situation. You should have more of a problem with a nation that marauds, kills, invades, and oppresses and claims to do so in the name of the Jewish people, than by Jews referencing Jewish history to oppose that carnage.
shira
(30,109 posts)Every other statement over there is about "Jewish Supremacy". Why have you hijacked their language?
1. I'm outraged at Anti-semitism, slander, and Jew-baiting that leads to attacks on Jewish people. It's quite clear you believe Jews pull this "card" to divert from Israel's evilness. Would it really hurt you that much to concede that 'yes', you can understand why good people would be concerned with antisemitic slander and jew-baiting?
2. You should be outraged at yourself for supporting Hamas' rejection of at least 10 ceasefires this summer. If you're so worried about genocide, how is it that neither you nor your antizionist friends ever once begged on behalf of Palestinians to accept at least one ceasefire? Thousands wouldn't have died. No, you wanted Hamas to achieve all its demands. You didn't want a ceasefire, you wanted many more killed until Hamas got what it wanted. Well, you got it alright. Thousands dead, but no demands met. Congrats. Happy?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You can tell, becuase your avatar is Stephen Colbert, instead of the "White pride" cross you'd be wearing at Stormfront.
It's apt terminology in the context of Israel / Palestine.
No, I believe that Zionists exploit Jews, in an effort to cover for Zionist support for the oppression and violence against Palestinians. As you are doing right now. I also find that the fact Zionists make an effort to cast any and all opposition to their rhetoric or ideology as "antisemitism' cheapens and obfuscates actual anti-Jewish abuses and behavior. So we end up with a hateful, racist, violent ideology that claims to speak on behalf of all Jews everywhere, makes a regular practice of declaring non-Zionist Jews to be some form of not-Jew (race traitors, self-hating, or even posers), deflects from actual acts of Jew-hate, even while it welcomes such acts as a form of self-validation.
Antisemitism bothers the shit out of me, as do all forms of racism and bigotry, Shira. It's actually one part of why I have a problem with Zionism. A movement that will embrace the likes of John "God Bless Hitler!" Hagee, while casting out and disparaging Jewish people speaking for equality and an end to oppression conducted in their name, is absolutely not even remotely a pro-Jewish movement.
Oh, Hamas can go die in a fucking ditch for all I care, Shira. I've made that sentiment quite clear, quite often, though I do understand it's profitable for you to "forget" all the time. However your stated belief that Hamas controls Israel is frankly idiotic. Especially when we remember that Palestine includes the west bank and Jerusalem as well.
shira
(30,109 posts)You agree with them on that one? They pretty much coined it.
You keep lumping the most liberal progressive Zionists together with the worst Kahanists. There's nothing to be gained debating Zionism with you when you make all Zionists out to be Nazi Kahanists.
Again, how can you feign outrage at Israeli "genocide" when you agreed with Hamas' rejection of 11 Israeli ceasefires? If Hamas chose not to fight, Israel would have followed suit. Why did you want war and death to continue?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)The term is really only apt for the situation of Israel / Palestine, for reasons that ought to be pretty fucking obvious.
I've likened it to protestantism in the United States.
On one side of the street, you have the First United Baptist Church of Christ. Across the street, you have the Baptist Church of Jesus the Nazerene. If you ask one congregation, they will tell you that the other one across the road is all wrong. That the groups are completely different, on this point, and that point, and all these things. You might even get the idea that these two congregations are at each others' throat! Then Sunday comes, you poke into service, and they're preaching the same thing. Same book, same scripture, same inflections, same everything. But they will take great offense, dire, angry offense, if you admit you honestly can't tell the difference.
(For a humorous (and somewhat depressing) visualization of this, watch the Moral Orel episode, "The Lord's Prayer." Or perhaps, the scenes from Monty Python's "Life of Brian" that involve the various Judean liberation movements.)
I honestly can't tell the difference between one movement that wants to dispossess and destroy the Palestinians, and another movement that also wants to dispossess and destroy the Palestinians. I suspect that the difference, if any, lie well outside their mutual approach to Palestine. That being the case, it's not something I'm going to strain over. I really don't care of one group slapfights with the other over whether or not to allow breaking the Silence activists to speak at events, when the two groups are still in solid agreement on the important issue at hand.
I don't recall agreeing. Rather I pointed out that there's a much bigger picture to look at than just the latest incidence. But of course, that's sort of the whole idea isn't it, to pretend the latest event invalidates and erases everything that came before.
Which brings us back to why that woman protested in front of Yad Vashem.
King_David
(14,851 posts)It's difficult to remember we on a progressive Democratic Party website and not some bigoted Jew hating hate site .
It is bizarre to find such posts on DU
And the reason Democratic Party reps and candidates never link here.
I spoke to a Democratic Party congressional candidate that I was helping with his campaign and he confirmed this.
shira
(30,109 posts)They think they're the good Jews. And all other Jews (nearly all of us) are the bad ones. They're not self-hating. They love themselves. WE are the "race-traitors" to them.
As to the GENOCIDE charge, tell me what other country would take thousands of rockets on its civilians while warning its enemy's civilians to move out of harm's way, provide hundreds of tons of humanitarian aid, and set up field hospitals at the border?
This is just one example of dozens why you guys aren't taken seriously....
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)As for the use of the word genocide, here's my take on it.
But I've come to a point where I really see no better word. when we look at Palestine, we see a system designed to erode and demolish an entire class of people - Maybe not specifically to render them extinct to the last individual, but certainly to render the concept of "Palestine" extinct, to demolish the people's identity, to throw them from their land, to render their experiences inadmissible to the rest of humanity, to reduce them to a crawling, bleeding nothing. To leave them as a broken husk, brushed from the pages of history.
English doesn't have a word for this that isn't "genocide." We have the similar "ethnocide" and "democide" but both are really just subcategories or extensions of "genocide." Your suggestion of "massacre" fits the killing, sure... this killing, and the last killing, and the killing before that, and the killing before that... How many "massacres" have to stack up before it becomes something else? And what of the rest of it all?
I've come to the understanding that the word itself is apt, but that peoples' expectations of it are skewed. Like if it's not twelve million people and they're not dying under the swastika, it "doesn't count." I gave a few examples of other genocides to you - Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, the Kurds, that the world just sat back and watched, with wags like yourself clucking their tongues at people for using "the G-Word."
It doesn't help that most admitted genocides have been swift affairs - the holocaust took four years, Cambodia took four years, Namibia three, Al-Anfal two, and Rwanda just a month. But then we have the purge of Native Americans, a process of five hundred years - that is still ongoing in parts of central and South America. Siberians have taken a long time as well, at three hundred years. Australians, a hundred and fifty or so. I would say the Jewish diaspora in Europe, prior to the Holocaust, was no less a genocide, with Jews forced more or less underground and incognito, only to be driven and killed in violent paroxysms against them - the Roma as well, though with a somewhat shorter history in Europe.
A genocide does not require swift extermination of every individual, Bonobo. It can be a grinding campaign of attrition, where the "losers" aren't purged, but everything about them is - an example being the Ainu of Japan, or the "boarding schools" that Native Americans and Australians were subjected to, intended to destroy everything that made them part of their people. A genocide is the eradication of the people, not just the individuals, but also what defines them as that people.
I'm pretty sure you can grasp that notion, that of a people transcending just the individuals that make up the group, yes?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5315386
And more recently...
It exists in a total vacuum, is totally unique, nameless, and undefinable. We cannot use any term to describe it, because every term is deemed wrong by the people who support the indescribable situation. Since we cannot describe it, since we cannot compare it, since we cannot name it, we cannot speak of it, and must instead be silent about it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=83134
shira
(30,109 posts)...did not have the aggressor warning civilians to flee targeted areas, didn't provide hundreds of tons of humanitarian aid, didn't provide field hospitals, etc, all while its own civilians were under rocket attacks. They certainly didn't call for 11 ceasefires...
But Israel is just as bad or worse than them?
Why should anyone take u seriously?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Particularly the protracted ones that I mentioned, as they tend towards nadirs and zeniths of relations between those involved. The army can be doling out flour and sugar and medicine to the Cheyenne in December... and then trying to purge them from the territory in June. Telling people to flee, to run away, is a big feature of pretty much every genocide in history.
That Israel puts up a field hospital and treats a double handful of the Palestinains that it is bombing doesn't change that it is bombign them. That it tells them to scurry like rats from one bombing point to another bombing point, doesn't mean they're not stuck in a strip of land a fifth the size of Los Angeles while being bombed by Israel. That Israel allows some of other nations' aid to pass through its checkpoints doesn't change that Israel's occupation and violence is the reason the aid is needed. That Hamas fires off rockets that smack uselessly against Israel's air defenses and the occasional empty field, doesn't change Israel's crushing grip on and continuing expansion in to the west bank.
None of this changes the very clear and obvious reality that the end goal of Israel is a single state stretching from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River, either void of Palestinian and Bedouin Arabs, or maintaining them in as minimal a presence as possible.
shira
(30,109 posts)And you guys wonder why no one rational takes you seriously.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Seriously? One of the more memorable features of the Rwandan genocide were the constant radio warnings made towards the Tutsi people. Broadcasts that amounted to, "We're coming for you. You better run. If you're there when we arrive, you're going to die!"
Can you imagine the terror that might bring to people, Shira? Being told, "run, or we'll kill you" by people who have demonstrated that they absolutely will do exactly that, if you don't run? Or that if they catch you while you're running? You grab your family and run. You live everything else behind, hoping that your home will still be there. if you return; you don't have time ofr stuff, you just have time to run. if you're fortunate, you grab some blankets for the kids, or some food and water, but you run. and you pray to whatever you believe in that while running, you don't cross the wrong road. You pray you don't meet a patrol. You pray that the people you are running with don't twist n ankle or something else that will slow your flight, or even force you to stay. maybe you can find somewhere to hide. Somewhere safe. Can you trust your neighbor to hide you in a basement without selling you out? if he refuses to do so, and you're found out anyway, he's going to die, too. because when they tell you, "run or die," they aren't kidding. it's not a prank. They are killing peopel who don't run. They're killing peopel who don't run far enough. They're killing people who run to the wrong place. All you can do is run, and pray, or maybe run and hide and pray.
That's what it was like to be a Tutsi in 1994.
Do you imagine getting a text reading "run r we bomb u kthxbye - luv IDF" is any more comforting than getting that radio broadcast, or that the killing if you don't run will somehow be less lethal?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Again demonstrating that with you it's all about Jews.
What's with your obsession with Jews ?
LOL
Its unbelievable .
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Hard to talk about Jews demonstrating in Israel at a Shoah memorial / museum, while they are belittled and berated as "self-hating jews" without making mention of Jews or Jewish history.
I'm sorry that the word "Jew" offends you so greatly. I think you'll just have to live with it.
shira
(30,109 posts)What kind of food, restaurant?
I'm interested in a reality based discussion, and I could talk food all day w/o ever getting bored. And I doubt we'd fight...
