He has gon too far with his machinations and warmongering. He seems to think he has a right to do as he pleases with our government and try to push us into war with Iran. I hope he decides to stay home and work on Peace with his neighbors.

1. What you call warmongering (probably WRT the last Gaza war this summer) was in fact a defensive war. Bibi agreed to every ceasefire proposal this summer. Hamas refused every single one.

2. There won't necessarily be a war with Iran. Israel took out Iraq and Syria's nuclear capabilities w/o going to war with either nation.

Wrong. Killing civilians is not defense.
And no, we are not warring with Iran for Bibi.

....when Hamas is getting its rocks off firing 100's or even 1000's of rockets at will against the hated Jews into Israel?

Be specific.

You realize Israel took out Syria and Iraq's nuclear capabilities and there was no war either time? Can you at least acknowledge that fact?

To apologize and compensate the families. To not drop bombs on civilian residences. To not bomb UN shelters. I think Israel is trying to pull the US into a war with Iran and they don't care if we want to go. I do not like the Israeli PM going to congress to undermind my president in his foreign policy in such an arrogant fashion. He shows a lot of distain for the American Left and is tied to the American Right. I am a leftist.

Hamas actually wants civilians killed in order to incite hatred against Jews. It's been very effective. What hasn't been effective is that Hamas hasn't been able to tie Israel's hands up completely (UN & NGO pressure as well as a compliant media) so that Israel becomes incapable of defending its citizens.

It turns out WRT wars from the past few decades, Israel is more careful with civilian lives than NATO or any nation within NATO that has been at war since since the 90's.

Do you think Israel's policy (even if hidden) is to deliberately kill civilians?

You have yet to tell me what Israel is allowed to do in order to protect its civilians from 100's or 1000's of rockets.

Still waiting for that.

I didn't think you'd acknowledge the fact that taking out Iraq and Syria's nuclear capabilities did not result in war.

If Israel want to be rightwing, why should we on the left support Israel. I trust MY President to negotiate with Iran without Bibi trying to undermine him at all costs. He has made this an issue where sides will be taken.
I do not need to solve world peace to have the wherewithal to say, killing civilians is wrong and I don't want to help Israel kill Palestinians.
You go after the people launching rockets and leave the civilians out of it. If you have to kill a thousand babies to protect yourself, I won't forget. Nobody will. The grandchildren of the dead will kill the grandchildren of their killers, and so on and so forth.

....before reacting to Hamas' 100's of rockets. This was the same week right before Israel started going after Hamas.

It also doesn't seem like mowing the lawn when Israel agreed to all ceasefire proposals. If Hamas had agreed to the 1st one, there would have been maybe 100-200 casualties at most (terrorists included). It's telling that Palestine's so-called supporters don't hold Hamas accountable for any of that. If you all cared about children, you'd have BEGGED Hamas to agree with every ceasefire proposal.

If Israel want to be rightwing, why should we on the left support Israel.

You wouldn't support Israel even with the most liberal, leftwing Zionists in control. So I ask you, why wouldn't you support Israel with even the most leftwing Zionist leadership?

I trust MY President to negotiate with Iran without Bibi trying to undermine him at all costs. He has made this an issue where sides will be taken.

I'm not sure he's undermining our President when he speaks for the vast majority of Israelis who are scared shitless of a nuclear Iran. Iran is already at war with Israel (through Hamas and Hezbollah). If the Iranians would do that without nukes, imagine what they'd do with them. Israel would be one press of a button away from another 6 million dead Jews. That's not acceptable.

I do not need to solve world peace to have the wherewithal to say, killing civilians is wrong and I don't want to help Israel kill Palestinians.

What you're really against is Israeli self-defense. How do I know this? You have yet to tell me what Israel can do to properly defend its citizens. You can say you're against this and that, but assuming Israel does what you say - where does that leave them WRT to defending against Hamas? What can they do? Waiting...

You go after the people launching rockets and leave the civilians out of it. If you have to kill a thousand babies to protect yourself, I won't forget. Nobody will. The grandchildren of the dead will kill the grandchildren of their killers, and so on and so forth.

Israel does go after the people launching rockets. When Hamas embeds themselves within the population (a war crime) daring Israel to strike, where does that leave Israel? What can they do? If Israel doesn't strike a legit target, then their own citizens are at risk.

It was all wrong of course, but expected. I like how you know my innermost thoughts and feelings, and what I would do. I don't even need to think now, with the way you do all of the thinking for ne and respond to yourself for me.

Sorry about reading your mind, but riddle me this:

Let's say leftwing Zionists are leading the Israeli government. It's happened before going back to Ben Gurion, Golda Meir, Rabin....

Would you support Israel?

Or my thoughts and whatever.
My support would depend on many factors. The first would be declared borders and return of confucated property and payments to those harmed.

If they did that, you'd support Israel?

See, I doubt it. Israel's leaders like Ehud Barak & Ehud Olmert (they're not really Leftwingers) have already offered to declare borders and pay reparations in their peace offers that Palestinians rejected. Where's the support? That's why I call BS...

And I'd support palestine so long as they worked on defense not offense.

....that would've ended the occupation and settlements. Offers that would have resulted in a state of Palestine.

From what I've seen, Israel's most hostile critics actually support the Palestinians rejecting each offer. Those offers would have granted the Palestinians nearly everything they'd been asking for. The Palestinians didn't even come back with counter-offers. These proposals were rejected wholesale.

How is Israel at fault for that?

They have nothing. Israel dictates the deal and has US on their side. The deals were probably not fair. The occupier needs to leave.

They would get the equivalent of 100% of pre-67 territory. End of occupation. End of settlements. Compensation for refugees. Half of Jerusalem.

================

Actually, the occupier did leave - Gaza in 2005. There have been no Jews in Gaza ever since. How'd that work out? Badly, right? Why would Israelis want to repeat that for the W.Bank? They're not suicidal.

The Jews left Gaza, for sure. Now Gaza gets bombed every so often, when lawns need mowing.

Hamas benefited, no one else did.

Leaving the W.Bank would also benefit no one except for the leadership. The Palestinians would also have no incentive to work towards peace. You're advocating for more war whether you realize it or not.

I want the Palestinians to control their borders and harbors. And to be able to defend against bomb on babies. Everybody deserves self defense.

You're advocating for the latter. Between 2 shitty choices, I think the decision is easy. Choose the lesser of 2 evils.

Self defense, but not at the expense of innocent babies in Palestine. Defend your border. Declare a damn border, first! Stay on that side until healing can occur. Land grabs just make more enemys as do the killings of unarmed youths and settler violence and bombing schools.

Many children and innocent civilians paid in blood for Israeli 'security'.

....when you show you're against it in all practical ways.

You have yet to tell me what Israel can do.

=======================

The way I read what you're saying is that you'd rather see dead Israeli babies than Palestinians ones. Since Israel shouldn't respond militarily to Hamas' rockets and other terror attacks, that would be the result.

Or UN shelters! When that happens self defense just sounds like a big ass lie. An excuse.
The occupation has something to do with the rockets, I suspect. All the indignities they are forced to bear. It's not like Israel is NICE to Palestinians. They cannot even import the food they want and have electricity all the time. They have shitty water, literally. I'd be pissed too.

....for shits and giggles. If you believe that, it's no wonder why you hate Israel. The problem with believing in the worst from the IDF is that killing innocents by design doesn't benefit the IDF one bit. Aside from pretty much everyone in Israel being totally against killing innocents, targeting innocents actually prevents them from their military objectives against Hamas. Israel isn't stupid. They KNOW what killing innocents does to their efforts to stop terrorism. Those dead innocents benefit Hamas, not Israel. Israel does its best NOT to help Hamas out.

This isn't rocket science.

Another problem is that you don't seem to care about Hamas firing from schools, UN buildings, the beach, etc. Hamas appreciates that, BTW. It motivates them to do more of the same which results in deaths of innocents. They'll repeat the same war crimes in the next war, knowing their western friends will defend against their war crimes.

You also don't want to hear that in EVERY war that has ever been, mistakes were made. That's one reason war really sucks. For some reason you believe Israel should be perfect, even more perfect than any other nations on the planet engaged in war. Israel is so advanced, you probably believe they have the capability somehow (that no one else has) of only killing bad guys. Therefore, there can be no mistakes ever. So Israel targets innocents.

They've absorbed the vast majority of rocket attacks for about the past 10 years. It doesn't cross your mind that they're cheering on the IDF for attacking Hamas? The same Hamas dedicated to killing Jews everywhere on Earth?

I didn't say Egypt controls ALL electricity into Gaza.

Hamas cares about Hamas, not the other 95-99% of Gazans they use and abuse on a daily basis. They'd rather put their resources into attacking Israel rather than improving water quality. When cement is imported into Gaza, it's almost all used for terror purposes; NOT to help Gazans out. This is how Hamas operates. This is basic I/P 101.

Bombing schools and hospitals is NOT CAREFUL!!! Neither is bombing UN shelters and apartment buildings. Don't think I give us a pass. I don't. I'll not be voting for any warmongers here and will always say we were wrong and we MURDERED many thousands of Iraqis. Israel is just like us.

I think our presense in the region is wrong. We go to steal oil and kill Arabs and weaken the region. Cause disruption.

I think the IDF policy of bombing hospitals was a policy that was Evil. And yes, I think bombing hospitals is always intentional. They knew it was a hospital when they rropped the bomb. Its not like the hospital switched places with another building. Those people were already injured from bombings and could not check ID to make sure Hamas is not there. Yes. I think bombing UN shelters after saying they would not bomb UN shelters was an intentional policy to harm those who had evacuated to the shelters. Yes. It's obvious as a fart. Yes. I think bombing apartments is a way to maximize the kills with the keast amount of bombs. Very cost effective and deadly. As it was THE POLICY, Yes, think it was intentional to kill anyone in the building. Yes. It is the policy. Its obvious to everyone, from Chile to Iceland. Obvious. And googleable. We can google it very easily.

....seems to get through. You just block it out. You have your beliefs and nothing can change them.

I've debated some religious fundies who are just as impervious to facts and reasoning. No amount of facts is ever enough for them either. Reason is thrown out the door.

....the wrong side of history.

You think you have facts that show otherwise?

Bring them!

Or fold, as you usually do.

and you find it reasonable that Israelis squat on Palestinian land... something about Israel not transferring them... which is an outright lie, why would I expect you to do anything but birth falsehoods and half truths?

Ironic turn of phrase there, given the situation.

During the Gaza war, the IDF gave people only 58 seconds of warning time before bombing. That isn't enough time for anyone to get to safety. It should have been a five minute warning, with some indication of which way people should run.

After the Six Day War, Ben-Gurion called on the Israeli government to immediately relinquish control of all the territories the'd taken in the war. Also, the Israeli government waited until after "BG"s death in 1973 to begin the settlement project, because they knew he'd have denounced it if he was still alive when it happened.

it has to do"?

Why should anyone give any government anywhere that kind of support? Most people here don't give OUR government thar kind of support.

The facts are that the IDF hasn't ever been stopped from doing what it wanted to do, and that nothing would be different in the I/P situation if the world community had agreed never to publicly criticize Israel.

The problem has never been lack of unquestioning support for Israeli military tactics-it's been that those tactics have been arrogant and heavy-handed and have usually just made everything worse.

Just as bombing Iran could have no possible effect other than to make everything worse.

What Netanyahu is doing and what he wants to do are horribly bad for the cause of Israeli security-especially his continued efforts to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state-a state that has to come into being before it can even be possible for the Arab/Muslim world to formally recognize Israel.

Except for some who use double standards when it comes to Israel.

Its an unfortunate but true fact that civilians die from those taking measures to defend themselves in all conflicts. Especially when ffighting someone like Hamas who uses civilians as shields.Israel did not target civilians unlike Hamas. Far more civilians would have been killed if Israel was targeting civilians or operating recklessly. Far more civilians would have been killed if Israel did not take steps it was not even required to take and which also put its citizens at greater risk in an effort to minimize civilian casualties. Far less civilians would have been killed if Hamas had not purposely put civilians in harms way as a tactic.

Under international law Just because civilians are killed does not mean an action was not defensive nor does it make it a warcrime. Under international law the presence of civilians does not preclude or prevent taking military action. Hell, lots of German civilians were killed by the Allies but that did not change the fact the Allies were defending themselves from German aggression nor did it make their actions a, warcrime.

Israel like all countries has a higher duty to protect its citizens (both civilian and military) over that of enemy citizens. Even so Israel took extraordinary steps to minimize enemy civilian casualties at the expense of its own citizens safety. The steps were far more than Israel was required to take as well as far more than any other country would take in its position. Despite such steps not only was Israel falsely accused by some of what would be real warcrimes by any standard, but even more ridiculously they were also accused of violating standards nonexistent in international law nor that anyone else is held to. What's funny is that while Hamas actually does target civilians, use them as shields, hide weapons in shelters and commit a myriad of other real warcrimes some just ignore them and or even are apologists for them while at the same time screaming about Israel's nonexistent violations.

It seems some don't want Israel to do anything to defend itself.

Bombing UN shelters, not self defense. Bombing schools, not self defense. Killing those kids on the beach? Not self defense. Bombing hospitals where the injured evacuated to, not self defense. Telling people to evacuate and then bombing the shelters they evacuated to, not self defense. Bombing large apartment buildings, wiping out whole families 2 minutes after an evacuation call? Not self defense. See? I can tell self defense. Maybe because I learned Judo and not kickboxing.

I can let the death toll speak for itself. 3 dead Israeli civilians. 2000 dead Palestinian civilians. Not self defense.
Seem like some people only value the lives of Israelis and do not mind collective punishment. Which is a crime. If you kill my baby to get to my downstairs neighbor, I will find you and return the favor. That is what killing a bunch of civilians brings. We dropped those bombs on Iraq and acted surprised as fuck when they used IED's on us. And suicide bombers. I was not surprised.

And no good can ever come from bombing Iran.

MLK believed it too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113494632#post39

I'm sure he would look at Israel as it is TODAY, and then decide whether to support it or not. It is not 1964 anymore, hon. Times have changed and th situation is different now. Besides. Your logical fallacies are piling up and its killing me not to point them out.

The 'Authority argument' never works on me, nor does the 'Popularity argument'. I do not care what MLK said about it 50 years ago. I'm more of a Malcolm X (in his radical stage) fan. I have this strange problem where I have to think for myself.

Edit: I can't find where JL said that so I say nothing.

You believe MLK would oppose Israeli policy & that would make him antizionist today?



Hell, almost all Zionists oppose at least some of Israel's policies - one way or another. That doesn't make all zionists into anti-zionists. Our POTUS remains a Zionist despite the fact he has major issues with Israeli policy.

===================

You and I both know that when anti-zionists criticize Zionists for whatever's going on, they are w/o question using code to cover for the fact they're referring to Jews. Thus, this opposition to Zionists (Jews) is clearly anti-semitism. Anti-Zionism = Antisemitism. This is such a no-brainer, I dare you to deny it.

===================

And to top it off, you believe 50 years later that MLK would become an anti-zionist......after he made himself clear that anti-zionists are bigoted Jew haters?

For real?

Not nice. I said. I think he could decide for himself how he sees it. I don't know what he would b today. Neither do you. I think he'd strongly oppose the occupation and siege.

Dare taken. I deny it!!!
I use Zionists for Zionists and Israel for Israel and Jew for Jew and black for black and woman for women. Crazy huh? People knowing words and how they should be used. I'm sorry you are not used to that, but America is not 1940's Europe and it disgusts me that you treat me as though I am a antisemite just because I do not like what Zionism has become. Maybe Zionism has changed. And not for the good. And should take its own inventory before lashing out and calling others racist antisemites while they have racist Zionist rallies against blacks and Arabs in their cities.
Unless you think only racism against Jews is bad, but not when Jews do it to me and mine?

Very strange you want to associate Dr. king with those racist people who hate blacks. Or maybe you deny that those racists in the streets were Zionists? I don't get it. Why would he be Zionist after seeing stuff like that? It's not like Zionists have been making common cause with African Americn citizens. They link up with republicans and conservative christians. He was a liberal.

You seem not to understand. I'll spell it out plainly. Israel has become rightwing as has Zionism. That's why Americans are AntiZionist. We are not Europe and you can stop with the antisemitism libel. We did not do that. Go lay blame in the villians. We fought to save the Jews. Not to oppress them. The accusations of antisemitism are unwarranted and cause support to drop.

...makes one a NON-supporter of Israel, that's going to be news to all the liberal/leftwing supporters of Israel.

You need to realize supporting Israel almost always means supporting its existence, not necessarily its government policies. Zionists support Israel's well being no matter whether Leftists or Rightists are in control of the government.

Nearly all LEADING anti-Zionists criticize Zionists when the context of their statements definitely means they're attacking Jews.

Where do I even begin with the following nonsense?

And no. The outreach is not an ongoing thing between us. It was in the past about forty year ago, but Zionist groups have been reaching out to the Right in America in my lifetime. Jewish Americans are not the same thing as Israeli Zionists. Just because people helped in the padt does not mean they are on our side now. When Israel is tied to the Republican party, much more than the democratic party, you see a drop in support. African americans have been moving towards neutrality, younger Americans towards palestine. This is during the last ten years. Israel is tied to the American right wing. The American right wing is pretty much racist. If they make common cause with the racist right wing, I cannot support them. Hence the fact that some Dems are not going to Bibi's speech. Especially with the leader of Israel and prominent Zionist being so disrespectful to the first black president of the USA in a way that smacks of racist intent. And cozying up to the right.

I have not seen much support from Israel or Zionists groups for our president. I have no idea why you think support for Israel is rising. If the left in Israel was in power, I'd be supportive.

Is that what u mean by "calling us names"?

I haven't met an anti-zionist yet who hasn't been pro-Hamas in someway or another. All major American anti-Zionist outlets appear to support Hamas terror attacks against innocents. If you want proof, I can easily provide it.

We're talking a pretty small % of Americans here. Small because the vast majority of Americans know how odious anti-zionist beliefs are. They're not fooled. Americans support Israel by over 4-1 over Palestinians, in each battle Israel has been in against Hamas or the PLO (like in 2002, 2009, 2012, 2014). Each and every time, and that support hasn't dropped off. 93% of American Jews supported Israel in Gaza this past summer, while 95% of Israeli Jews supported Israel this summer. The last link from Haaretz shows 95% support from Israel's Jewish moderate Left, and 67% among Leftwing Jews. What does this tell you about almost all Jews worldwide? You don't think we realize how serious the threat is for Israel & how we have no choice but to defend ourselves?

Now, name one Democratic Senator or Congressman in office who is an anti-zionist. I'll help u out here. There are none. What does that tell you? When u vote Democrat, you're voting for mostly non-Jewish liberal democratic zionists who support Israel's right to exist in peace. You're supporting "horrible racists" whose only crime is simply to support the Jews' right to life in their ancestral homeland against enemies (Hamas & Co.) who want Jews dead worldwide. I've learned that anti-zionists don't give a crap about Jews' human rights or right to live in peace within Israel.

As to American support for Israel, it's grown since the '60s.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/American_attitudes_toward_Israel.html

Finally, that crap about Jews being rightwing is absurd, given that more than 70% of Jews voted Obama in both 2008 and 2012.

You're out of your depth here.

You do these threads and think u won and i'm happy for you. Support is still slipping and will continue. Calling people jew haters over and over can get wearying. I'm just tired of being accused of supporting terror or killing jews or whatever for not being a zionist. I'm even less of one now, thanks to you and your bullying.

But the accusations get in the way. Then I look at the culture and realize I don't like it. Our senators and congressmen don't show up at racist rallys against black people in our capital. If Israel expects support from All Americans, they need to probably not have a bunch of racists in the knesset, a policy of deporting blacks, and a PM who talks about blacks upsetting the balance of the state and promising to send them away. Xenophobia is harsh. I do not see Israel as an ally. Have you ever thought about how offensive it us to demand support of a black person for a nation that treats blacks worse than we do here? How rude and obnoxious! People are racist against them so they go there and are racist against us and demand our support or else WE'RE the racists? Very demanding.

Why should black people support Israel? You cannot give an answer.

More Harry Potter direct controlled magic than ASOIAF nature magic. They say a few words and Boom! We must accept.

I'll be waiting for an answer for why it's racist not to support a nation that (seems to) hates your kind and ships them off to die in Sudan or somewhere else. I do not see why I owe such allegiance to their supremacy in Israel over everyon else in the area. Very confusing.

Mondoweiss is a vanity blog that can not be considered a valued source under any circumstance.

...be trusted about anything related to Jews, like Israel.

as you seem to claim here on another thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=94653

as far as MLK goes he supposedly said that in 1964, if that's the best you can do ............

Pitiful, actually.

it is all extrapolation nothing more nothing less and it was 13 years ago-MLK's quote was supposedly made in 1968 (I've seen various dates over the years) almost half a century ago, well before the settlement/colonization of Palestine enterprise took the form we it in today, are you seriously saying that opinions about Israel are static unchanging never evolving? Pitiful alright I agree

So I hope you not accusing Lewis of antisemitism when in fact he's a strong proud friend of the Jewish people...

a simple yes or no will do

thats fact not opinion.

I encourage you to read our Jewish group and learn more.

So if there's a self admitted AntiZionist or self admitted antisemite or self admitted Islamaphobe or self admitted homophobe on DU it's all the same thing . Hopefully and optimistically this is not the case.

AntiZionism as the PM of France Judge in Berlin MLK remind us ( not David Duke or Rense ) is Jew Hatred


Remember this.

Last edited Sat Feb 7, 2015, 02:08 AM - Edit history (1)

They want.

We support democratic party principles here on DU and Antizionism and antisemitism are the antithesis of such.

French PM Valls:'Anti-Zionism is cover up for AntiSemitism

Here's Lewis:

and it seems you agree with MLK's attorney's posthumous claims

Do you doubt anything else MLK said, or do you just doubt this one thing for convenient reasons?

starting with the NYC teachers strike May-November 1968 all the way to the Crown Heights riots in 1991 the relationship between the Black and Jewish communities is not the same as it was in the early 1960's, it is an unfortunate fact but Obama mentioned the need to rebuild the Black Jewish relationship during his 2008 Presidential campaign

I find the claims that MLK would have supported Israel's actions as fervently a he did in 1968 a bit speculative and I'm being very polite

I don't doubt MLK would be critical of some of Israel's more rightwing policies.

That would make him a liberal zionist, but still a zionist nonetheless.

To think he would become an anti-zionist is extremely far-fetched, considering he believed anti-zionism = antisemitism. He wouldn't want anything to do with such a racist movement.

that despite the twists and turn and goalpost changes we've been on

Is participating in a Republican/Likud scheme to both sabotage the diplomatic efforts of a Democratic president AND use Congress as a prop to influence the outcome of the Israeli general election campaign.

It's a plot against both a negotiated solution to the Iran nuclear situation and the moderate and progressive parties in Israeli politics.

Diplomacy is working and Netanyahu doesn't deserve a free campaign ad on U.S. television.

Mondoweiss again? Can't you find a site that doesn't revel in being anti-Israel?