And with all the conflicts in the region, coming primarily from the Iran/Sunni dispute and dictators desperately trying maintain control of their fiefdoms time is rapidly running out for the Palestinians. Abbas knows this which is why he complained to the media the other day where he said "We suffer from division. We were the first to suffer from division,” because he knows that the "Palestine question" is being pushed to the back burner and might not ever be as prominent of an issue as it used to be, the conflicts all across the ME, gulf region and North Africa aren't going away any time soon.

If I were Abbas I would put together an offer asap. I'm assuming of course that the 2 state solution is his goal.

despite his rhetoric that won him power again. The EU is sick of it and the US is now placed
to impose it, per Bibi..no Palestinian state on my watch. The issue will be if that resolve
brings a viable state for the Palestinians.

My biggest issue is that BOTH sides need to feel the pressure to seek a resolution, not just Israel.

Primarily, Palestine is not occupying Israel. Israel is occupying Palestine.

Your argument is that Palestinians should be made to suffer until they cede their rights to people who are dead-set on violating those rights anyway.

So... argument killed.

Isn’t all of the former Palestine Mandate the ancestral lands of the Palestinians?

The poster implied that the Jews were there first, which is of course, a lie.

That's a fact.

Jews otoh have been living in Israel, Judea, Samaria and the Levant for thousands of years, before Islam even existed. Also a fact.

So yeah, the Jews were there first, deal.

"Nation State" is a pretty new concept, in context of history. The notion of movements dedicated to the creation of such states is even newer than that.

Are you trying to make a point other than a poor attempt to invalidate the Palestinian people's existence?

The area in question has been continually inhabited since prehistoric times. The Jews and the Palestinians both count their ancestry back to the Canaanites living there. To say that the Jews were there before the Palestinians when they share the same ancestry, is just stupid.

Over the years the original population in the region been enriched with an influx of people from elsewhere; Greeks, arabs, crusaders etc. The arab identity doesn't imply arab ancestry; it's a cultural identity, like being an American.

You seem to believe that when the people of the area became arabs, their ancestry changed too.

There is too much revisionist BS in this thread.

Which Palestinians?

As far back to at least the 18th century and up until just 100 years ago, when Palestinians were mentioned - everyone knew the Palestinians were Jews. The Palestinians as we know them now - their parents/grandparents - believed they lived in southern Syria.

In fact, when the name of the new country was being debated in 1948 by Ben Gurion and others, the name Palestine was one of the few possibilities. And why not? Palestine was already associated with the Jews.

Everyone who isn’t a revisionist knows that the Palestinians are direct descendants of the original population of the area since prehistoric times, and that they never moved from anywhere. The idea that they come from Syria or elsewhere has been proven false over and over again.

I have a definite feeling that you might be disseminating revisionist lies on purpose, but to refute you, here is a link to the wikipedia article on the Palestinians and their origins:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

You know who Kant was? He was no schlub.

I was hoping you would try to backtrack, as on my second reading, I realised your post was rubbish, and actually didn’t make sense at all.

But now you put up another post that unfortunately confirms my suspicions about where you come from.

I’m not going to delve too deeply into that post, but I will reassert that the Palestinians are the direct descendants of the people that were there in prehistoric times. Your notions of them immigrating from somewhere else is complete nonsense, and is a commonly used revisionist lie. I will also add that people of Jewish descent actually trace their lineage back to the very same people.

And please don’t use Kant like that.

What has he ever done to you to deserve a treatment like that?

Someone here is afraid of the facts and it's not me.

You also totally ignored the excerpt I quoted for you from the WIKI article that you used.

Why?

But if that was my intent, I would've changed it to:

You Kant be serious!

Note the Star of David logo on the Palestinian team's jerseys during the handshake at the beginning of the video:

I bet he had a hand in making the match possible.

....in the 18th century.

You've been misled about Palestinian history by revisionists.

I read a book about him a while back, but I suppose that wouldn't be your cup of tea.

Your claim is wrong; all the people living in the British Mandate for Palestine were Palestinians, regardless of whether they were Jewish or not.

But the more important point is that those we call Palestinians today are the direct descendants of the original population; they didn't come from somewhere else, and they have always lived there. There are some falsifiers of history that try to perpetuate the myth that the Palestinians come from surrounding areas, which is complete BS, and no better than the Khazar Jew myth.

I think it's a very bad idea to claim that either Jews or Palestinians are more directly descended from the original inhabitants of the area than the other group. Such a claim is only made in order to try to severed the connection to the area of the other group.

I assume the conductor of this particular ride confirmed that you are indeed four feet or taller and do not have a heart condition? if so, be sure to buckle your seatbelt and keep all limbs inside the car. Vomit bags are to your left. Do not try to exit the ride until the car stops moving and the bar lifts.

Flotilla to Tibet.

That was as priceless as the "flight plan map" where Edward Snowden was supposedly on a plane circling Moscow (described as the flight to Austria).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023164458#post54

Right now there is functionally a binational state. At some point that will be considered frame of reference, not a separate state.

The only question is what form the binational state takes--a theocratic apartheid state, or a secular, majority-Arab one.

"Right now there is functionally a binational state"

Definitely not the case. Nothing resembling a binational state exists.

"The only question is what form the binational state takes--a theocratic apartheid state, or a secular, majority-Arab one."

This is the even more ridiculous statement.

Truly bizarre that you would think a majority-Arab state would definitely be secular or that Israel would be theocratic.

A one state solution would, best case scenario, lead to something like the former Yugoslavia or former Czechoslovakia.

Which is why this is something most reasonable people do not support.

border security, all travel permissions, and supreme police and security authority throughout the whole of Israel and the West Bank.

How is that not a single state government?

Why would a 55% Arab, 45% Jewish state not be secular?

A state that bases all legal rights on an individual's religious faith is a per se theocracy. Especially when that state establishes that it's religious character outweighs all other considerations (the Jewish nation-state bill that Bibi's new coalition will be passing).

Israel really should have thought of that before going on a 40 year orgy of settlement construction with the obvious intent of making a separate Palestinian state physically impossible.

A separate Palestinian state would have been the ideal. But while that may have been possible with the Israel and the Israelis of 1981, it's impossible with the Israel and Israelis of 2015 and all future generations--both of where they stand (majority rightwing and racist) and where they squat (interspersed throughout the land that would have been for a Palestinian state).

There is none.

Imagine a Gay Israeli agreeing to go back to the Middle Ages .

You ought to direct your ire towards the majority of Israelis who voted for apartheid (and yes the vast majority of Shas and UTJ voters are apartheid fans).

They're the ones who have made a single binational state inevitable.

And what makes you think this new country of yours will protect gay rights?
Which Arab country does?

Why would any gay Israeli who has just about every right except for gay marriage ( to be performed within Israel but recognized and licensed if performed out of Israel ) agree to go back to medieval times?

1) GLBT rights will have to be protected in the new constitution. That means lobbying ahead of time.
2) Make alliances with GLBT Palestinians--they are human beings just like you.
3) Your beef is with the Israeli extremists who decided to make a separate Palestinian state impossible.

It's easy to make friends with the Palestnian LGBT community most of them do not live in Palestniane for fear of murder , you can catch many in Tel Aviv NYC Toronto Sweden Finland
Anywhere but not Gaza or Ramallah.

Protected in the constitution? That protection ain't worth the paper it will be written on ... How's Egypts protection of minority's going for you?

IS kills all their Gays and Hamas ? Iran isn't Arab but they kill their gays too.

Thank you very much but better to live in Israel and not take that chance.

I would expect to see you out demanding that the settlements be dismantled, as they are what is tying your fate to the votes of Palestinians.

Good job, geek tragedy for putting yourself in a corner...

You cannot argue with apartheid when there are other Arab countries killing their own gay people,

are not authentic.

in terms of Israel.

Israeli Arabs have equal rights as the Jews.

That is NOT apartheid.

So you are still conflating between two different nations as "apartheid".

the territory of Palestine?

It is clearly apartheid. Israel occupies the area, they control all the infrastructure, the airspace, and access, yet the people in the occupied West Bank have NO SAY in the matter. That is apartheid plain and simple.

That is literally what occupation means.

Roughly three hundred thousand of them can come and go and do pretty much as they please, with the guns and bombs of the occupation forces backing them up as they do.

Israeli apartheid's Democratic champions

Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders

http://socialistworker.org/2014/08/13/liberal-champions-of-apartheid

Glad I showed you that.

What you seem to be rooting for is a return to the Middle Ages where Gays are hung up on poles - legally.

Who are you to tell them that's the route they should be taking?

Forget it ... Why would anyone be so self destructive .... Easy for you , you won't have to die with the consequences.

they have a right to participate in elections of that state.

But, if you wish to avoid this, you really ought to press the Knesset to roll up the illegal settlements and deploy the IDF to evacuate them.

With the same IS philosophy towards Gays.

Have you seen their Gay murdering ceremonies pushing them off buildings?

Forget that.

What is it about me that you think it's acceptable?

My avatar ?

A Jewish state next to a Palestinian one. Peace is the goal. Not just 2 states and more conflict.

I doubt you'll find any liberal Zionist here against the Clinton Parameters or Olmert's 2008 offer.

If the Palestinians want their own state and peace, they'd have accepted the Clinton Parameters of 2000. They don't want peace, and why should they when they have so much support abroad encouraging them not to make peace? Their foreign friends want them to wait it out for 1-state with an Arab majority. This is why the Palestinians feel time is on their side. They have so much support from foreign friends, who like Hamas and Arafat, want the Jewish state to end. They feel it's just a matter of time before they finally "win" against the Jews, who they know are hated worldwide.

They even believe they have a Right of Return for millions of Palestinians, guaranteed by International Law. No point giving up on this fantasy when they feel they have enough support to actually have this pretend RoR implemented.

The question is, what is your side doing to work for a peaceful solution?

Perhaps it doesn't matter, as it looks more like Olmert played a practical joke on Abbas than anything else.

....so that they won't ever have to criticize Abbas for not acting in good faith. They'd rather pretend Israel hasn't offered anything decent, ever.

I emailed the Geneva Initiative people back in 2010 to see how they viewed Olmert's offer. They knew what Olmert offered and they knew it was similar to the Geneva Initiative. They liked it so much they invited him to be a keynote speaker at their conference.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x339970#340032

BTW, the Geneva Initiative is supported by Jimmy Carter, Noam Chomsky, Sari Nusseibeh, and Amos Oz among others.

Mahmoud Abbas got to keep about the details of the land swaps.

Just look at the map for Jerusalem for example, the swaps there only goes one way. Besides, the Geneva Iniative is already out of date beause of settlement expansion. Ariel, for example isn't even mentioned.

Do you think Ariel should be vacated?

Are they stupid?

as revealed here in an interview with Der Spiegel

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/a-palestinian-take-on-the-mideast-conflict-the-pursuit-of-a-two-state-solution-is-a-fantasy-a-816491.html

Star Member azurnoir (38,217 posts)
7. Lol still promoting Olmerts good deal let's take a dose of reality concerning that shall we -again

The one Israel's current representative to the Peace Talks ® Tzipi Livni rejected? The one Israels current PM said he would not honor? The one the Israeli government aid gave away more land than Israel was willing to give? And last but not least the one that would not be implemented while Hamas was in power in Gaza?

Netanyahu: I won't carry out an Olmert-Abbas peace deal if elected

Opposition leader favored by polls to sweep elections if held today rejects proposal to divide Jerusalem, says would toss out agreement between current PM, Palestinians

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3533242,00.html


Shaul Arieli of the Council for Peace and Security, which developed a map with a final border as part of the Geneva Initiative, said Israel's capacity to swap territory with a future Palestinian state is more limited than what Olmert reportedly proposed.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/haaretz-exclusive-olmert-s-plan-for-peace-with-the-palestinians-1.1970

Nabil Abu Rdainah, Abbas's spokesman, told the official Palestinian news agency WAFA that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's plan showed a "lack of seriousness."

Under the proposal, Israel would return to the Palestinians 93 percent of the West Bank, plus all of the Gaza Strip, when the Palestinian Authority regains control over the Gaza Strip, which the militant group Hamas seized from forces loyal to Abbas in June 2006.

Olmert presented Abbas with the proposal as part of an agreement in principle on borders, refugees and security arrangements between Israel and a future Palestinian state

http://www.haaretz.com/news/pa-rejects-olmert-s-offer-to-withdraw-from-93-of-west-bank-1.251578

Livni tells France's Kouchner: I oppose Olmert's peace plan

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told her French counterpart Bernard Kouchner that she opposes the agreement in principle that outgoing prime minister Ehud Olmert has offered Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/livni-tells-france-s-kouchner-i-oppose-olmert-s-peace-plan-1.285402


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=45752

"I'm sure president Bush has intelligence we haven't seen!"

With friends like that who needs enemy's?

Unfortunately they are living in a fantasy world, the world has moved on, to problems like IS and Assad.

Tackling IS and Assad is a distraction from the real irritant, the Jewish state.

Bashing Israel is far more important to the BDS'ers and their useful idiot friends than what's happening in Syria, Libya, Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, and Lebanon.

The mideast is on fire (except for Israel) and they couldn't give a shit.

Support for sharia as the official law of the land also is widespread among Muslims in the Middle East-North Africa region – especially in Iraq (91%) and the Palestinian territories (89%).

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

Shotgun, interfaith marriages are always awkward.

Where does your understanding of Israel's legal system come from?

People aren't arrested for not keeping kosher.

Israel is neither 100% secular nor 100% theocratic

Hint: Orthodox Jews.

Who cares?

Rabbis do not get to dictate on what I can do with my life.

My favorite rabbi is currently in Tucson visiting other Jews, and he doesn't suggest getting a get. Just get a divorce and move on.

Be thankful there are non-Jews around to tell all Jews they can't divorce without a get.

It's only used to apply difficult Jewish question.

Nothing to do with Israel.

Did you think Israel lives in a Talmudic law?

Maybe in Mea Shea'rim, but not all of Israel.

See this thread for such an argument from "reasonable people."

Anyone who cheerfully endorses the murder of Palestinian teenagers is more than just unreasonable - they are despicable.

Murdering teenagers is justified, he claims, "because of the role they play in Palestinian society"

I think we've had more than enough input from such "reasonable" people. They should stick to predicting kadima landslides.

by stone throwing?

Nice to know..

There is absolutely no justification for murdering teenagers.

I'm not sure who you are talking to, but anyone who cheerfully endorses the murdering of Palestinian teenagers is not only unreasonable but is absolutely despicable.

In the thread, start with reply #1

My posts in that thread are directed towards suggesting that the term child should apply to people 15 and younger, especially considering the role 16-17 year olds play in Palestinian society. As in most of the world, that is often the age in which one begins to take on adult responsibilities (getting married, having kids, etc). I would say the same thing for Israeli Jews, especially the ultra-orthodox.

There is a difference between killing a Palestinian or Israeli infant and killing a Palestinian or Israeli who is 17 and the terminology ought to reflect that difference in my opinion.

Murder is, of course, bad regardless if the victim is a child, teen, or middle-aged adult. And regardless if the victim is Israeli, Palestinian, or any other nationality.

That you could possibly think "cheerfully endorsing the murder of Palestinians" is implied by anything posted by me on that thread is as bizarre as thinking that Kadima could win an election in a landslide.

In the context of Palestinian children being murdered, all you have to contribute, the only thing on your mind, is a complaint that you don't think the word "children" ought to be used. You justify this with some bullshit about Hamas, and 'their role in Palestinian society." You studiously ignore the many younger children so killed, in your efforts to justify the one (whose murder is also unjustifiable, but god help you, you try) and thus dismiss the lot.

If any post that I've made in the past has given any impression other than that, allow me now the opportunity to explicitly and definitively correct that misunderstanding.

The murder of Palestinian children by Israel is deplorable. The actions of Israel with respect to bombing Gaza, where so many innocent children were killed, was deplorable. The actions taken by the IDF in the West Bank with regard to children and teenagers has also been deplorable.

I personally think that five, six, and seven year olds ought not to be lumped in the same category as sixteen and seventeen year olds (I would apply this standard to both Palestinians and Israelis). I believe that there ought to be statistics regarding how many people under 15 have been killed independent of 16-17 year olds who I would say are more accurately grouped with 18-19 year olds.

But that has nothing to do whatsoever with my feelings about the murder of innocent Palestinians of any age which I hope I have clearly articulated for you in this response.

I'm really not interested in playing "gotcha" games or anything like that with regard to this serious topic, so I hope you will take my response here as the final word on the subject.