but an AA "addiction" is better than the other kind. (As the ex-wife of a 4-yr sober Alcoholic now addicted to meetings, I think I have the right to say that.)

At any rate, my point - these people - the "freepers" of the world - are seriously disturbed individuals. The Teabaggers, the far right fringe of the Republicans. The fundamentalists (pick any religious flavor). Sick sick sick sick sick sick f*cks. WTF is WRONG with them? Is there any hope? How do we rescue society from - and save from themselves - such fundamentally flawed people?

When I sobered up there was an 'old timer' who'd been sober when AA was relatively new, and HE used to say he was an atheist. He was a hilarious, loving man who probably saved my life by allowing me to embrace my lack of faith. (He had a cool nickname as was popular back then, "Boxcar Bill&quot

Over the years there were good people explaining to us that family is important. AA as an 'addiction' is not a healthy place to be.


There is good reason to believe that third tradition story in AA is referring specifically to being Gay in the 12 and 12, and even if not, the all-inclusiveness of the tradition is about any alcoholic. They didn't want women at first either.

With Freepers? What can you say? There is no way this would fly in any meeting I've ever been too. it's inimical to everything AA is. Just as their politics and social positions are inimical to life itself. They are very sick people. Very angry, and point fingers outward instead of having any introspection at all.

I found this on a news app, and was kind of shocked, I don't know why.

I define Freepers as a "glorious lack of class and sophistication." Which they definitely lack in this case.

My husband has never heard of them. He almost doesn't comprehend them, as though they were talking word salad, or perhaps a different language entirely.

kiss

That would solve all our problems, if everyone accepted Jesus and believed exactly like they do. I've seen this with my husband's family. They have the one true belief and nothing else will save you.
Our nephew struggled with drugs and God knows what other demons he had. The family prayed and prayed and encouraged him to do likewise. He committed suicide at age 21. Had just married and had a brand new baby. Praying wasn't the answer, but we were assured, at his funeral, that he was saved and sat with Jesus. My husband had to get me out of there. I loved that kid.
My own daughter's struggles with drugs have me scared to death but we won't bury our heads in the Bible.

My son is an alcoholic. A bad one. He was raised with me and my wildness and knows the eventual outcome. He knows there are ways out. So far, he's not interested. He may very well die that way.

Addiction is a dicey thing, psychologically and physiologically.

I have a story; friend of mine. Horrible drug addict, raised by a horrible drug addict. Had four children, deserted them in a drug house. Ugly Legal problems. I met her, she was in treatment for the 4th or 5th time. She had tried all kinds of churches and counselors. My husband and I kind of scooped her up and "spoon-fed" her sobriety (she says).

We went to court with her. Went went to her supervised visits with her children with her. We helped her find her son, she had no idea where he actually was---I'm saying this to point out how bad the situation was with her, not to say that we are perfect angels--the women was extremely and dramatically messed up, mind body and soul.

13 year later she's happily married, an excellent mom and finished getting her CPA license.
Best of all she finds women just like she was and says 'this is my story' and they understand there's hope

And she'll tell you it wasn't easy, she wasn't perfect, she isn't perfect. But she's one hell of a woman.

and always ends in death. I'm just can't give up. She'll end up having a good life.

One of them is my own. There's always hope.

and freepers are idiots.

i'm all about 'live and let live' as long as they stay on their side of the room....

"Here at DU, I've seen arguments on whether AA is a religious organization, (if it was, this agnostic wouldn't have 23 years sober, but-----whatever)"

Oh it's religious alright. You're sober for the same reason I am: You quit drinking.

But you gave the credit to AA. I know better.

"When therefore we speak to you of God, it is your own conception of God." "This applies too to other spiritual expressions you find in this book."

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf

Please...this God stuff is each persons conception of a higher power. hit the link and look at page 47 at the top...That is it...We/AA is not a religious group.. Some people like the spirituality and peace of the meetings...That is ok, and some talk of God, and that is ok, and some don't give a damn...and that is ok....What I believe is what I believe...


Also...please think of this....we /AA cannot and will not discriminate...why? only purpose is to help the suffering alcoholic/drug addict.......why..that is it...............

Today...I saw someone sleep thru the entire meeting...........so what??? .......he didn't bother anyone..he wants to sleep, I as the leader..said.........."Let him sleep." He was quiet.. big deal.. and, I can assure you of this...we don't care about anyone's sexuality as long as they do not take off their clothes and show us...that might be disruptive...you know what I mean???? I would be long gone if it wasn't for the 12 step programs...dead and gone.......

Last edited Tue May 28, 2013, 02:38 AM - Edit history (1)

[font color = blue]Stuart>>"When therefore we speak to you of God, it is your own conception of God." "This applies too to other spiritual expressions you find in this book."

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf

... We/AA is not a religious group.. << [/font]

Well the Steps and the Big Book push a very specific conception of God that is a micro-managing prayer-answering, favor-dispensing deity called God -- one who will restore us to sanity, remove our shortcomings, manage our lives, care for us, love us, listen to our prayers, give us power, and guide our groups (this list from the 12 Steps and Tradition 2),

and who in Step 11 you pray to for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out - the same God that you turned your will and life over to in Step 3.

They pressure you to work the 12 steps -- AA's literature tells you that "Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant" (12X12 p.174).

What besides a deity does one pray to for knowledge of His will for us, and the power to carry it out? Do you think anyone rational enough not to believe in something for which there is zero evidence -- a supernatural being(s) -- will believe that he/she can recover by praying to a light bulb, and that the light bulb will tell us His will for us and give us the power to carry it out?

Stuart, you've made that point many times -- that people are free to choose their own higher power. In each case I've responded with many examples of the program's intense religious proselytization, where the Steps and Big Book push a very specific deity version of God -- see for example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1144174#post32

And you've had no response. Well JackShuman and Mountain Grammy comes along and you make the same assertion.

The "its not religious because you can choose your own God" argument did not sway any of the courts, at least not any of the 4 federal appeals courts and the 2 state supreme courts that have heard these cases. They concluded that A.A./N.A. is at least religious in nature and coercion into A.A./N.A. is a violation of the First Amendment's Establishment Of Religion Clause (again, see 1144174#post32 on that)

And no wonder. Please take a look at the headings of 1144174#post32 again:

# A.A. cooperation with coerced attendance

# Doesn't this "God" sound like a deity, something other than human? (many many BB quotes)

# If it's not religious, why are agnostics being so ferociously attacked? (listing all the terms agnostics are called in Chapter 4 (We Agnostics)

# Some more from the Big Book suggesting God is not other people or human

# If it is not religious, why is The Lord's Prayer so often used to close meetings? Why doesn't A.A. have any official position on it other than leaving it to each individual to decide whether to participate or not?

# All 4 federal appeals courts and both state supreme courts that have heard these cases have concluded that A.A. is at least religious in nature and coercion into A.A./N.A. is a violation of the First Amendment's Establishment Of Religion Clause

# Listening to stories of God doing favors for wealthy American alcoholics (while millions are starving)

All of that endless proselytization about a favor-dispensing deity -- the word "God" appears 136 times in the first 11 chapters of the Big Book, not counting Him, His, He, Maker, Creator, Employer, Principal, Father, assigner or our roles, giver of our sex powers, provider of our needs, something other than our well-loved A.A. group, no human power, nor any other human being, accomplisher of the humanly impossible, divine, Providence, has all knowledge and power ...

That's quite a lot of proselytization to try to wave away with one "own conception of God" quote.

As for what my conception of God is, it is an invention by ancient humans (probably even preceding Homo Sapiens) that sought to explain thunder and lightning and volcanos and so on, back when there was no science. As science advanced, most people continued to believe in it because it is a mental health salve for some people; because their parents and others around them continued to believe it; and for some others a justification for slaughtering people not like themselves (e.g. Book of Joshua, many neocons from the religious right).

Perhaps you say OK, as long as you, Progree, keep quiet about that (that fits into your "might be disruptive" clause), then everything is cool. Well, but there is another problem -- I'm pressured to "work" the steps with rigorous honesty.

How do I honestly turn my will and my life over to something I think is a fiction invented by ancient people? (Step 3)

How do I honestly pray for knowledge of a fiction's will for me and the power to carry it out? (Step 11)

How do I honestly become willing for a fictional character or fictional force to remove my shortcomings? (Step 6)

and so on.

I'm told I will die or face jails and institutions unless I work the steps. And there are many A.A. literature quotes that back their assertions, such as the one I quoted from the 12X12 in my 3rd paragraph above.

"UNLESS EACH A.A. MEMBER follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant - 12X12 (Trad 9) p. 174 (many more such scare quotes at 1144174#post32 )

[font color = blue]Stuart>>http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf <<[/font]

I'm baffled why you and NMDemDist2 keep quoting Chapter 4 "We Agnostics" when responding to agnostics / atheists / higher-power-challenged people. Don't you know that WE HATE that chapter? (Here I'm talking about real agnostics & atheists, not ones that think they are one or the other because they don't belong to - or believe in - any particular established religion). That we hate being singled out in the Big Book and called "vain", "fooling ourselves", "prejudiced", "perverse", "obstinate"? (See 1144174#post32 for a much longer list of insults that Chapter 4 hurls at non-believers.)

If A.A. is not religious, then how come there is a whole chapter ridiculing agnostics and other non-believers?

How would you feel, if instead of "We Agnostics", there was a chapter titled "We Jews", that called Jews "vain", "fooling ourselves", "prejudiced", "perverse", "obstinate"? Or "We Catholics" or "We Mohammedans" etc.?

I suspect that you would strongly object. If so, then how come when it's directed at agnostics, it's OK and something to endlessly quote from?

[font color = blue]Stuart>>"Today...I saw someone sleep thru the entire meeting...........so what??? <<[/font]

A lot of people sleep in church too. Does that make churches not religious?

A lot of people who attend church don't believe in God (e.g. spouses and other family members), or have a different conception of God than that presented in sermons and official church doctrine. Does that make those religions "not religious?"

No church or religion can make you believe anything, no matter how intensely they proselytize. Does that make them not religious?

What if an organization proselytized about Jesus this and Jesus that and Jesus Jesus Jesus, and portrayed Him as powerful and divine, but then claimed to be not religious because you were allowed to have your own conception of Jesus. Would you think that makes it not religious?

enough.

you have made your point on several threads. you won't change the minds of people who do AA and they won't make you join.

This is a group that is strictly designed to be helpful and supportive. If you can't give positive and supportive responses, please post your opinions in another forum.

Thank you.

It's a slightly structured anarchy by design and in of the traditions is for it to mind its own business.


That's why there can be Alcoholics Anonymous meetings for atheists, agnostics, married couples, men only, women only, nudists, veterans, 'double winners'--a euphemism for mentally ill folk with addiction problems, Native American meetings held in actual tepees, you name it.

Now some alcoholics, will fall all over themselves defending AA and explaining why it's not a religion. I personally don't give a shit.

If AA works for someone, thats good enough for me.

You're correct. AA is for those who want it.

It’s difficult to imagine that any atheist who has read We Agnostics would want to be in AA at all. I find that chapter condescending and insulting to anyone who is an atheist, or for that matter anyone who thinks differently than Bill W. thinks they should.

The chapter’s only purpose is to try to convert an agnostic into a believer.

I don’t believe that there are any genuine atheists in AA at all. Perhaps some sort of “Baptist atheists” or “lukewarm atheists” but no one that is very firm in their atheistic conviction.

“You’ll die drunk if you miss a meeting, don’t do the steps just so, or harbor a resentment.”

That's far too superstitious for me to want to be a part of it. But, it seems to suit many. Good luck in your recovery.

Bill did go on.

...and in the AA meetings I've attended over the years, I've never really heard too much mentioned about sexuality; homo, hetero, or other. Speaking for myself, I could give less of a shite what the hell people do sexually and who they choose to do it with.

Here on LI, there are specific tailored meetings for men, women, and gays. I've also heard rumblings of 12-Step groups tailored to leather/BDSM lifestylers.

Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety....period.

Freepers can kiss it.