because of the dough conditioners, yeast amplifiers and other stuff they use. Homemade bread is always going to fall apart slightly in a thin sliced bread sandwich. The crumb is coarser, for one thing. Commercial bread uses very short rising periods to keep the crumb finer.

Homemade bread has better flavor and fewer chemicals. It's a tradeoff.

I've never had a multigrain bread hold together well enough for closed sandwiches, in addition, I've mostly used those for toast and open faced toaster oven sandwiches.

However, what you can try is to knead it longer in that mixer, up to 8-10 minutes, to make sure the gluten is fully developed.

(I did the nutritional labeling for a commercial bakery in Boston in the 70s and was fascinated by the whole industrial process of baking commercial balloon bread. I still baked my own)

For sandwiches for the first couple of days. It just gets so it drops a lot of crumbs after than, but it still holds together great. One of my favorite things to make with it are grilled cheese sandwiches. I make them in a flat bottomed frying pan with a bacon weight on top so the whole thing is sort of flattened.

Sometime I want to try to make French toast with it, but I bake my French toast rather than fry it - a lot easier and I can make enough to have extras to re-heat for a couple of days. Problem is my husband tends to eat the bread pretty quickly

I'll try letting it knead longer, maybe before I put in the last bit of flour. Once that last flour is in, the dough wants to climb the hook! But since I prefer making a soft, moister dough, I can cut back on the flour until the very end, or maybe even wait and add any needed additional during the final shaping.

I almost wish I could go back to hand kneading, but after surgeries on both shoulders, bothy hands and both elbows, I am trying to limit how much I do by hand other than the things I can only do by hand. And I still have dozens of needlework projects to stitch before my hands give up on me completely!

My hands have gotten very bad about getting dry when I cook because I wash them a lot. So I've attempted to do many of the steps without having to handle the dough much to minimize washing.

I've been adding the yeast into the soaked grain so it gets warmed and hydrated up quickly. What I've been doing is after the grain soaks, add the warm water, oil and honey, mix in the yeast, then add the other four and the salt. I'm getting plenty of action from the yeast so that's not the problem, even though I just finished using a jar that had a use by date over a year ago.

I did proof that yeast the first couple of times I used any from that jar to make sure it was good. I've using Red Star active dry yeast, by the way - usually purchased from the local co-op natural food store I'm a member of. They used to carry instant yeast for bread machines in jars but didn't have it yesterday when I checked.

Some local groceries will have the 1 lb bags. Costco sells the 2 lb bags. I use old yeast jars or old wheat germ jars to store the bulk of the yeast in the freezer, and only keep one yeast jar's worth in the fridge.

as Warpy suggested, though I only know that length of time for hand-kneading. If it translates the same to a mixer, then ten minutes should do it.

Also, oil will shorten the gluten strands, which could be a contributor to crumbly bread. Either add less oil or add more gluten.

There might also be too much liquid in the recipe. Right now it's 1.5 cups water to 3 cups flour and 1 cup cereal, plus 1/3 cup honey. That's almost a 1:2 ratio of liquid to flour+cereal. How wet does the dough feel after mixing and before kneading?

Would butter shorten the gluten strands, too? I can try a batch without oil except to coat the bowl for the first rise. I'm not using enough to flavor the bread and mostly add it because I read somewhere it would help keep the bread moist.

I actually have to add extra water sometimes, depending on the weather and humidity. The dough feels good - very together and not sticky, smooth and nice.

The cereal seems to soak up a lot of the water - especially with the Bobs Red Mill cereal, which is the consistency of steel cut oats. When I mixed the water with the cereal, gluten and whole grain flour the water tended to get sucked up by the mixture. Often I had to add more to get the bread flour to mix in and to keep the dough soft enough for the KitchenAid to mix it.

I'm doing almost no hand kneading - everything is pretty much done with the mixer. I used to make my bread entirely by hand, no mixer at all. Then I had to get a shoulder rebuilt and didn't make bread for years because I didn't want to stress it. I found a bread machine at a thrift store and used it for the mixing and first rise until I found this vintage KitchenAid on Craigslist.

A change from my original recipe is that I used to add dry milk powder. Would that help it hold together better or not make a difference?

"Shortening" is called that just for that reason. It weakens the structure of a dough.

Something I just read about a different kind of bread points out that (for making Italian panettone) that the baker would mix the flour and water to develop the gluten before mixing in the fat.

Maybe cut back on the oil a little, or use some organic butter
Also just read this in one of my old baking textbooks:

Though if the no-knead method doesn't work for me I may still use some oil to make it easier to get the dough out of the bowl. I won't need to make bread for a couple of days, but I'll let you know how I do.

Thanks for the science!

I hope some form of your recipe works out. That's part of the fun of baking, trying different methods until you perfect it

You'll likely get a slightly better rise and softer texture. Thinking about it, butter tends to give a less crumbly texture than oil with whole grains.

Why don't you re-add the powdered milk and try half-oil/half-butter?

p.s. If all else fails, consider replacing 1/4 cup of your flour with bread flour. If you don't use it often, you can freeze it (either permanently, or for a couple of days to prevent any insect eggs from hatching).

if you like a nice crust and a chewy interior, this is THE one.

whisk this together in a big bowl

1 1/2 cups all purpose flour
1 1/2 cups whole wheat flour
1 tsp salt
1/4 tsp yeast

add 1 1/2 cups water - stir until it forms a sticky dough - cover with plastic and leave it on your kitchen shelf for 24 hours.

then...

turn out the dough onto a floured surface - fold it over once, cover and let rest for 15 min.

dust a towel with flour, gather the dough into a ball, put on the towel, cover - let it rest 1 1/2 hours.

30 min before that is done, preheat oven to 450 with a covered pot - like a Le Creuset. Let it get good and hot.

At the end of the 1 1/2 hours of the towel covered dough rest, remove the pot and slip the dough in, cover, bake for 30 min.
Remove cover, give it another 15-20 min until nicely browned.

That's it!

As I mention in my other responses, I can no longer mix my bread by hand and use my vintage KitchenAid to mix and knead it.

My original recipe was simple, similar to what you have with honey added to make it slightly sweet. But my husband likes the texture the cereal provides so I added that. Then I read somewhere that a fat or oil keeps the bread moister longer so I started adding butter then changed to oil to be healthier (and cheaper).

So maybe I need to drop back to the simpler recipe and see how that goes until I get my groove back!

We do like the longer loaf - less crusty ends and more slices for sandwiches and toast. Round loaves don't lend themselves to consistent slices.

incredibly flavorful though - very "European".

this is a great blog about the recipe and variations. I make one with added currants, walnuts and cinnamon - we toast it for breakfast and put honey on it.

http://www.astackofdishes.com/the-famous-ny-times-no-knead-bread/

That's why I was wondering if I needed to go back to the first soak/rest time. I'm not sure if I can plan ahead enough to mix it up 24 hours ahead of time. Though now that my husband has finally retired we can have our own schedule and not have to wonder what is happening at the whim of his disorganized manager.

Mostly we make sandwiches - my husband likes PB&J sandwiches and took one to work every day for lunch - when he got a lunch break.

I'll try adapting it for my bread and let you know how it works for me!

Thanks!

requires a baking stone. I didn't see that mentioned anywhere in the article you posted (which I have sent to her.) Do you use a baking stone?

Thanks for sharing this article. The pictures are divine.

If the gluten or flour are a bit old, they may not be working as well to give you the structure you're familiar with.

I concur with the recommendation on extending the kneading time, too.

I'm away from home, so I can't post the formulas I'm currently working with. I have a sponge method baguette that is awesome.

But I've used up the older ingredients and am now working with fresh flour, yeast, and gluten. The salt and honey are older but they don't degrade the way the other things do.

That's why I'm asking now - I knew older ingredients could make a difference so while I was using them up and getting back my feel for making bread I wasn't as concerned about the crumbliness. But I've made two loaves with fresh ingredients and the consistency hasn't changed.

I may mix up a batch of no-knead bread tonight and let it sit overnight to finish tomorrow. It depends on how things go today.

I had some problems when starting back up again after a long hiatus. My flour was stale and tasted off.

I recently discovered Blue Bird flour, from Cortez Mills in Colorado. It's a tradition in the Four Corners area. And darn good flour, to boot. It's the only one that still comes in cloth bags.

I've been experimenting with the sponge method to improve flavor, the last couple weeks, It really makes a wonderful tasting bread.

I use the stand mixer to do the kneading. My shoulder wouldn't hold up to manual kneading too well. I have a Kitchenaid that does the trick quite nicely.

I prefer to bloom the yeast before use: warm water (not to exceed 107 F), yeast, and sugar together in a bowl for at least 10 minutes to get their party started. Then in with the rest of the ingredients as called for.

When I'm home, I'll post my formulas to share. There's nothing like fresh homemade bread in terms of taste, smell and satisfaction of the spirit.

And some of the other things, like the gluten and the cereal are Bob's Red Mill. I prefer the King Arthur, but my husband's great grandfather and grandfather worked for General Mills. His mother still owns General Mills stock that was part of his compensation, so my husband thinks of it as a "family" brand.

I know what you mean about the kneading - got my left shoulder completely rebuilt in 1993. That was the first time I stopped making bread and when I stopped making it entirely by hand. About 6-7 years ago I found a bread machine at a thrift store and started back making bread letting it do everything but the shaping and last rise.

Then I had to get the other should cleaned up and after it recovered found a vintage KitchenAid on Craigslist for $40. Since then, I've been using the KA to do the mixing and kneading. I've also had carpal tunnel and ulnar nerve relocation surgery bilaterally as well as both knees replaced so have not been as much in the habit of bread making as I like.

Both of us much prefer homemade bread over anything we can get at any store, including at most bakeries. When the Trader Joe opened, I bought one of their artisan loaves and was extremely disappointed. It was bland with little flavor, bad texture and not good at all. I fed it to the birds.

I'll make my own bread as long as my arms and back hold out!

level. General Mills whole wheat flour doesn't handle consistently, to my mind: the amount of water it needs varies a good deal more than KA's flour.

That's one reason I haven't invested in a scale - I'd have to adjust it anyway. I'm in Florida so the humidity levels vary a lot, too.

I've baked long enough that I can feel when the dough is right - that's the one thing I miss about hand kneading though I am learning how to test the dough without handling it too much.

I always proof my yeast (put it in some warm water with a bit of sugar). Always. Have no idea if that would matter with your loaf.

Nice sized holes, evenly distributed. And that is with the older yeast. I did proof that yeast the first time after I opened the bottle since it was past it's "sell by" date but the crumbly was the same.

I suspect it's the gluten, maybe not well enough developed or possibly the oil shortening the gluten chains.

I have to make bread this weekend - I'll try a loaf with no oil except what I use to coat the bowl to keep the dough from sticking. I may or may not try to no-knead method - depends on whether I think about it the day ahead of time.

Last edited Tue Feb 10, 2015, 04:51 PM - Edit history (3)

After 6 days in hospital, I've been processed more than a box of Velveeta slices.

Using weights instead of volume, as that's more accurate.

Baguette
Sponge Method

Sponge
8oz Flour
8oz Water
0.5oz dry Yeast
2 Tbsp sugar

In mixer bowl, if possible: Thoroughly mix to a batter-like consistency. Cover with plastic wrap and let ferment 4 to 12 hours, depending on temperature and desired flavor. Overnight in a cool kitchen is best. At least permit to “break”; rise as much as possible, then collapse.

Dough

16oz Flour
6.5oz Water
0.5oz Salt

Place bowl with fermented sponge into mixer and add remaining water and salt. Turn mixer on low and stir together on lowest speed, then slowly add rest of flour until dough forms. Flour may need to be adjusted to get correct consistency. Knead for 8 - 10 minutes, scraping down bowl and dough hook as needed. Remove dough to greased rising bowl, spray dough with release, cover with plastic wrap and tea towel and permit to approximately double in size, 1 to 1 ½ hours depending on temperature. Punch down and permit to rise again to double size, another hour or so, again depending on temperature.

Portion out on floured surface and shape into 4 baguettes or boules, score to prevent splitting, and proof 30 to 40 minutes, covered with moist cloth or plastic wrap.

While items are proofing place ½ sheet pan on lowest rack of oven, set rack for baking to middle position, and preheat oven to 400° F conventional, or 375° F Convection bake, at appropriate time.

Get 2 cup container of water ready near stove.

When oven is ready and loaves are proofed, lightly spray or brush loaves with water and place onto middle rack, quickly pour water into lower sheet pan and close door. Bake 17 minutes conventional, or 12 minutes convection, turning halfway through, or until loaf gives dull sound when thumped.

Remove to cooling rack and restrain self until cool enough to eat.


Basic Baguette / Boule
Straight Dough Method
Full batch Half Batch

1 # Water ½ # Water
½ oz dry yeast ½ oz dry yeast
28 oz AP flour 14oz AP flour
½ oz salt ¼ oz salt
½ oz sugar ¼ oz sugar
½ oz shortening ¼ oz shortening


1) Activate yeast by mixing water (warm), sugar, and yeast in a bowl to let work 5 + minutes.

2) Scale dry ingredients and ready, setting salt and oil aside until later in mixing process.

3) Place wet into mixing bowl then add flour gradually until dough forms, then knead 4 minutes. Add Oil and salt then knead 5 more.

4) Put dough into oiled, covered bowl in warm place to rise to double size, approx 1 hr or more depending on temperature.

5) Punch down, divide, portion, shape, and score.

6) Let proof 20 min.

7) Brush on light coating of water and bake 375°F conventional for about 20 min or 350°F convection 13 min until done.

7a) McGyver steamer if desired: Place empty half pan on bottom rack while pre-heating oven, dump in 2 cups water before closing door to bake.