which is why NYPD has 12 pound trigger pulls on their pistols, because they can't learn to keep their fingers off the triggers. IOW, the average high school kid in Wyoming is safer with a gun than a NYC cop.

High school kids in Wyoming are better trained?

Don't assume that because they carry guns they are "highly trained".

There are generally two major categories of police.

Some are into firearms and practice on their own time and money, collect and participate in the different shooting sports. For obvious reasons they tend to be better shots and more cognizant of gun safety because they practice it regularly.

The second kind, like my BIL, only shoots when he absolutely has to for qualifying. He's gone 2 years between qualifying and brings his gun tome to clean before he "has" to use it. He has no interest in the shooting sports.

He's the reason that many departments require an 11 lb trigger pull, since they can't learn to keep their finger off the trigger. That heavy trigger pull is why NYC police can shoot 40 rounds, hit several civilians and miss the criminal.

That kid in Wyoming ... assuming he's had basic NRA taught gun safety training ... hasn't shot anybody to date.

How can we trust average people?

You're absolutely right.

If that's what you got out of my post you must have a real problem understanding other people trying to explain something to you.

Those "Average people", as in concealed carry permit holders, have a better track record in terms of accidental shootings than the police

Personally, I find people that will use the death of a child under any circumstances to try and push an agenda as stupid and despicable beyond redemption, how about you?

are very uncommon, far fewer than drownings, electrocution and other causes. Sounds like this deputy wasn't trained properly. Very sad.

...note have a clue about what qualifies in police training.

I conducted a 9mm handgun qualification table for a local Army Reserve unit last weekend. Virtually all qualified the first time, the best a local PD pilot. The worst? Another local PD officer that needed 5 tries to get a passing score. So obviously they are not all experts, or even well trained but the average folks who usually don't qualify but once a year and receive virtually no training in between did fine.

Errrrrr meeeer Gerrrrd!

Very low level training. Do you train........ or do you just complain and score?

Good thing you will never have the brass to be more than a keyboard commando. Really shits all over your weak arguments Google gunsmith still hasn't put up a picture of his imaginary AR build.

You're right. I know nothing about RESERVE training. Just real active duty and LE training.

....


Train active duty and LE units too, on the exact same range. Talk about clueless...

Reading comprehension problems, Clames?

Have no trouble reading your posts for what they are... You carry on with that YouTube LE and Active training you have...

The trainer.

...you should find someone to help you out. Make sure you don't hurt yourself or others next time you dream about building an AR...

in the academy on how to use their issue weapon. Most of their training has nothing to do with weapons nor safe handling. Many of them go to the range as little as possible. NYPD poor safety practices is the reason their pistols have the modified triggers.
I'm guessing I was typical Wyoming kid, given that Wyoming and Montana have the highest gun ownership rates in the US, who learned how to safely handle guns and responsible ownership at a young age. Before someone can get their first hunting license, usually about 14, they must go through a Wyoming Game Dept approved course that includes safety, marksmanship, According to some of my Canadian friends, it sounds about like same course it takes to get a Minor's permit starting at 12. The main difference being that the Canadian kid can buy his own ammo.

A gun blog called thetruthaboutguns.com has a regular "irresponsible gun owner of the week". Many of them are big city cops. If one were to do an study of such negligence (I refuse to call that an accident. An accident is due to no human fault) you will find that most of them are off duty cops or what I call casual gun owner, that is person who buys a pistol and throws it in the sock drawer and forgets about it. The cops seem to have a "better than thou" and the others are just ignorant.

My mom and sister in law had a rule, the only gun allowed to be loaded in their houses was my oldest brother's duty revolver. Even then, he unloaded it when changed out of his uniform. That said, my brother and his wife wanted to leave do doubt in the mind of my and me and my step niece (we were seven and five at the time). We took us out in the desert and demonstrated what a .357 round would do to a watermelon after explaining that it wasn't a toy.

Wyoming and Montana also have some of the highest gun death rates in the nation:



But, at least Wyoming and Montana kids know how to safely handle guns....better than cops.

those are suicide rates. Rural areas have higher suicide rates. Your chart is an example of card stacking. BTW, such "accidents" number in the single digits for that age group for the entire US. Wyoming's murder rate is usually 1/3 the national average, or comparable with most European countries.

Nice try though. The chart is specific to all gun deaths.

but it is based on the absurd claim that those suicides would not happen or that rope deaths don't count. I'm guessing this chart if the former. When you see the articles about Australia's "gun suicide rate" dropping dramatically, but forget to mention the actual suicide rate, it sounds like the latter. BTW, if you remove suicides from the equation, Wyoming would be towards the bottom. BTW, while some of the suicides were high school kids, most were not. It seems most of them were OWGs. Since none of the gun murders were committed by high school kids, few of were the suicides, and none of the fatal accidents, were high school kids, I stick to what I said. Since the OP is about an adult leaving a loaded gun laying around....................................... change the subject much?
Also, small populations also distort the per capita number. That could be why Bermuda has a higher murder rate than the US

Since we got sidetracked to suicide
http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/cutting-edge-help-for-suicide-available-but-wyoming-rate-is/article_8fe88dea-eed4-5878-91ce-6b8dc5e00839.html

http://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/20-most-depressed-and-suicidal-countries-in-the-world-1270/

http://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/10-states-with-the-highest-suicide-rates-most-depressing-and-suicidal-states-1261/

Like I said before, gunners are obsessed with removing suicides from the equation....as if they don't count.

because someone chooses to on their own. Since there isn't a case of suicides or murders rates dropping due to gun laws it's easy to do.
Anti gunners ignore the number of self defense cases where a shot isn't even fired, which conservative estimates put in the 100K range.

... that suicide generally isn't caused by a lack of training.

.. the 3rd smallest County in the State of Tennessee. I was 16-17 years old then, and we had moved here from Miami, Fla when I was 13. In '79-'80 there was a family feud going on deep in the backwoods ridges of the County. This was a place that had more dirt roads than paved, and many of the kids I went to school with still lived in homes with no indoor plumbing or electricity. Talk about pure culture shock!

To make a long story short, during '79-'80 there were 4 murders due to this family feud. At that time, it gave us a higher murder rate, per capita than Miami, Los Angeles and NYC. After graduating in 1981, I was back in Miami within two weeks. I moved back here in 2002. In the almost 11 years I've been back, there has maybe 5 or 6 murders, and only one that is still unsolved. If I had to guess, and this is just based on what I see and hear during deer season and turkey season and just talk around town, I would say that at *least* 90% of the residents are gun owners.

90% gun ownership and less than one murder per year?... I can live with that!

Ghost

so i think your point is valid.

all too commonly and with impunity used in this place to describe gun owners. I wonder how long a member could get away with using something like "black thug" to describe every African American. I guess some pejoratives are more equal than others.

Gun safety has to be practiced constantly and relentlessly.

... criminally negligent homicide.

He's on the force. They'll probably say something like....."they've suffered enough."

Then the parents will go at it and pop out another kid.

Wipe the slate clean of the dead kid and start over. Perhaps next time they won't be careless with a toy.......errrrr......loaded gun.

sense precautions for storing weapons safely in the home. It may even build a complacency.
Typical LE really aren't that special, or especially brighter then other people.

Deputy got careless (or had been careless all along) and his poor kid paid for it with his life.

While it is a tradegy, we are a nation of over 310 milion people. There are about 50 accidental gun deaths of children 12 or under per year. There are about 50 million children that age. So we are talking about a once-in-a-million event.

One of my kids have made it 2x longer and the other 2.5x longer without shooting themselves.


Amazing what doesn't happen with proper storage and training from a lowly civilian like me.

Last edited Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:09 AM - Edit history (1)

it could happen that an officer came home from a long day where it's "safe". Unholstered his gun, sat on the couch, fell asleep without thinking... or any other series of outcomes when a person is tired, stressed.... or even just a lapse.

Like they say when kids get hurt.... it only takes a second...

Horrible tragedy of the type where a parent doesn't have their eye on their kid for "just a second" and next thing they know their toddler is dead in a pool or whatever.


I was in the basement with mi son once and he manage to pull a heavy item on him that I stupidly place while looking for something important.... could have killed him with a table leaf. I am fairly skilled at stacking things safely, but I lost my head for one second because I was in a hurry and I underestimated his ability to hurt himself. I've never been so scared.


Training isn't everything.

gs cloud: It doesn't happen often enough to be a reason to take away my gun.

Why do you have to create a false argument? it's not really about 'you'.

While it is a (tragedy), we are a nation of over 310 milion people. There are about 50 accidental gun deaths of children 12 or under per year. There are about 50 million children that age. So we are talking about a once-in-a-million event.

Correct, but add on nonfatal gunshot injury to 0-12 yo, it's about one in ten thousand. and in states without child access prevention laws (cap laws) the rate tends higher than states with cap laws.

wisqars: Unintentional Firearm Gunshot Nonfatal Injuries and Rates per 100,000
2011, United States, All Races, Both Sexes, Ages 0 to 12 Disposition: All Cases
Number injuries Population Crude Rate
509*.. 52,950,108 .. 0.96
http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/nfirates2001.html

Washington DC went an admirable 10 years (or more) without having a single accidental firearm death of a child 14 or under, when it had it's trigger lock law & safe storage requirement, prior to heller. This bested even rural states for longevity without a fatality.

jan 2013: In the U.S., more than 1.69 million children and adolescents live in households with loaded and unlocked firearms, while 55% of homes have multiple unsecured guns. More than 75% of the guns that were used in children's suicide attempts and unintentional injuries were stored in the residence of the victim, a relative, or a friend. Eight percent of unintentional deaths resulted from shots being fired by children under the age of 6..
http://thetimes-tribune.com/opinion/editorials-columns/guest-columnists/smart-gun-laws-can-protect-kids-rights-1.1435326

With firearms. I have talked with many concerning firearms and to say their understanding of firearms and the thousands of laws already on the books is basic would be a complement.

parents must be responsible for protecting their children from harm. If a parent is irresponsible, it is usually the child who suffers most.

The family has my deepest sympathy. If the father faces criminal charges or work-related discipline, so be it. He screwed up and someone died as a result. Having known more than a few parents who lost kids to cars, ATV's, an arrow, and a gunshot, the pain of the loss is unimaginable.

and just demonstrates how poorly conceived CA laws really are.

maybe the deadbeat drug dealer dad who leaves guns around the house doesn't give a shit... but do you think the state can possibly meter out a punishment worse to a loving parent than them being responsible for harming their own kid?


Further, if that parent has other kids, are they served by losing a sibling and a parent?


And what is so special about guns? Some parents let their kids play in the street or have ready access to welding equipment. There are 1000's of ways a kid can kill themselves in a home. Mine almost died from a table leaf. My brother almost died on my dad's bicycle. I almost died from a blood infection playing in a creek near my house.


I love my kids, my guns are secure, but there is nothing the state could do to me worse than me losing one of my kids, and my family wouldn't be served by my wife being a single parent

iiibbb: Because a {california} law like that is written by people assuming the responsible person is callous ... maybe the deadbeat drug dealer dad who leaves guns around the house doesn't give a shit... but do you think the state can possibly meter {sic} out a punishment worse to a loving parent than them being responsible for harming their own kid?
Further, if that parent has other kids, are they served by losing a sibling and a parent?

Cheeses, somebody get me a handkerchief, sniff. -- (it's mete btw, or you miswrote).

One of the errors in your reasoning is you think everyone is so kind & loving to their children, when it just ain't so. Some parents can be good weeping grieving actors after the fact, when in reality they didn't care much prior nor after the fact.
The california act doesn't assume the irresponsible gun owner is callous, it simply takes that into account & allows for a hearing to determine facts better &, if prudent, allows the irresponsible gun owner to be punished more severely or, as you say, let off since he is indeed awfully affected by his own negligence & ergo suffering enough.
.. punishment could be a fine, or a light (usually) prison sentence few months etc.. enough to warn others to secure their guns better, or face stiffer penalties than just play acting a grieving parent who's already 'suffered enough' (the typical gun lobby rationale).
.. 'negligence laws' already 'on the books' tend to be weak & more readily skirted by lawyers & plea bargains, & negligence must be proved by the state - sometimes hard to do, but with child access prevention laws (cap laws) if a child misuses a gun the parent is responsible, or at least answerable.
.. in other words, the california law isn't there to solely punish parents more than what they've been 'suffering enough' with, but to hear the case & decide whether there might have been contributing reasons to the childs gundeath, such as constantly leaving loaded guns about or just an isolated incident, evidence provided by other children or spouse.

I love my kids, my guns are secure, but there is nothing the state could do to me worse than me losing one of my kids, and my family wouldn't be served by my wife being a single parent

sniff, the state wants to execute you too?

Jimmy the one is barfing on his screen again.

that gun owners can sometimes be a little too casual with their arms.

Maybe the gunners don't think, or they forget, that guns ARE special, "deadly weapons" that kids can get a hold of and shoot themselves or someone else? It obviously happens often enough to cause concern, no?


YOUR guns may be secure, obviously this guy's weren't.

So did he not give a shit, did he get careless, or did he just fuck up this 1 time? 14years of LE experience, but he still had/left loaded gun(s) accessible in the house with 3 young kids...

Do you think the State "punishing" this guy, or Jimmy the One's disdain is going to drive it home any better with someone who cares?

Child endangerment is child endangerment whether it be with a firearm or anything else. The gun part is irrelevant.

I have the same problem with "hate" crimes... someone's race or creed is superfluous to a murder or violence committed against someone.

Not caring about kids, and hating a group, are not a mental process you're going to reform... and certainly aren't going to disuade someone who doesn't give a crap---which is supposedly the people that law is targeting--- and the people the extra punishment does affect from a penance perspective are probably suffering far worse already.

"Don't need a hate crime law after James Byrd was dragged to death. "
"Reglar Texas law took care of it"
paraphrased

I think all acts of violence should be treated the same. Murder is murder. Defining it as a "hate" crime does what? Why should victims of non "hate" crimes not get the same level of justice?

and look more at circumstances, but firearm Safety Storage laws will. Firearms are special - we can tell because they are usually given special recognition as 'deadly weapons' due to their typical inherent nature, as opposed to say 'deadly instruments' which only depend on how they are used.

From reading about the laws, in CA he could apparently be charged with both. From the articles - he would have likely been guilty of violating both. Is it really your stance that the victim being his 3 or 4 yr old child is justification for violating those laws?...because you think the deputy cared alot about him??

Should he be penalized with the strictest penalties allowed by the laws? Probably not, as you bring up good examples of the family suffering, etc. But he IS (apparently) either knowingly, recklessly, or negligently responsible for his son's death. With his experience he was in a great postion to fully know and understand the dangers of loaded firearms {that danger is well-known these days to anyone who cares enough to research the subject}. So does that show he didn't care, or that he simply choose to ignore those dangers? No matter how - someone fucked up - and the poor kid paid for it with his life.

ETA: opinions stated based on articles, and assumptions that the the father was responsible for the loaded gun used

Last edited Fri Mar 8, 2013, 01:20 AM - Edit history (1)

kid got into the medicine cabinet and poisoned themselves? And do you think that the state that locks up the gun owner has fundamentally changed child safety all that much?

I dunno... the thing that prompted my comment in the first place was the person piping in that the officer would be charged in CA. I find myself feeling that law is hollow.