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SecularMotion

(7,981 posts)
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 09:47 AM Mar 2014

Firearms industry benefits from America’s gun violence

America is a violent place by any standard. The national firearm-related death rate has held steady at 10.5 per 100,000 people since 1999, well above the global average. Some of its cities exhibit epidemic rates of gun death on par with crime-affected urban centers in Latin America and the Caribbean. Hard as it might be to believe, levels of lethal violence are actually at historic lows.

Declines occurred after the passage of specific legislation designed to prevent gun-related deaths. Gun homicides dropped after the passage of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (1993), the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act or so-called Assault Weapons Ban (1994), and the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (1998). In the absence of significant federal legislation over the past, further reductions in gun violence have stalled.

It is worth putting the United States’ exceptional gun violence problem into perspective. The country´s firearm homicide rate is over six times higher than neighboring Canada’s, and 45 times as high as England’s. With the highest rates of gun homicide, suicide and accidental death in the industrialized world, it is not surprising that Americans also feel afraid.

The percentage of Americans who fear walking alone at night has increased since 2001 to nearly 4 in 10 in 2011. And yet national authorities have consistently refused introducing measures to curb gun violence. Strangely, Congress has opted instead to undermine gun control legislation, curb gun safety awareness, and abandon violence prevention programs, including some that registered positive results.

http://baltimorepostexaminer.com/firearms-industry-benefits-americas-gun-violence/2014/03/10
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Firearms industry benefits from America’s gun violence (Original Post) SecularMotion Mar 2014 OP
just a few notes gejohnston Mar 2014 #1
You're on ignore by now. ileus Mar 2014 #2
I don't put gun nuts on ignore so that I can be on juries when members alert on their posts. SecularMotion Mar 2014 #3
Cite just one incident of that ever happening on DU. beevul Mar 2014 #6
Peeling away the number of suicides from the total number of gun deaths SecularMotion Mar 2014 #7
actually that isn't a gun lobby tactic to lessen the statistics gejohnston Mar 2014 #8
"Peeling" them away to where, exactly? beevul Mar 2014 #11
I don't have you on ignore. oneshooter Mar 2014 #13
The SYG laws... freebrew Mar 2014 #4
Where do you get your information? gejohnston Mar 2014 #9
Some follow up comments Token Republican Mar 2014 #12
Firearms Industry Benefits from Gun Control Efforts. Eleanors38 Mar 2014 #5
Perhaps true but the firearms industry benefits far more from efforts to pass strong gun control ... spin Mar 2014 #10
:) DRAEGER Mar 2014 #14
Thanks. I think we largely agree. Welcome to DU. (n/t) spin Mar 2014 #16
Nice DashOneBravo Mar 2014 #15

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
1. just a few notes
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 12:33 PM
Mar 2014
America is a violent place by any standard. The national firearm-related death rate has held steady at 10.5 per 100,000 people since 1999, well above the global average. Some of its cities exhibit epidemic rates of gun death on par with crime-affected urban centers in Latin America and the Caribbean. Hard as it might be to believe, levels of lethal violence are actually at historic lows.
Misleading. Firearms related deaths include suicides, which are 2/3 of all gun deaths, and justifiable homicides, which are not crimes. Ironic thing is, those urban centers like NOLA, DC, Chicago, Oakland, and Detroit have low to non existent legal gun ownership rates. The areas with high legal gun ownership rates are as safe as Western Europe and Australia. BTW, those Latin American and Caribbean countries have much stricter gun laws than even DC.

Declines occurred after the passage of specific legislation designed to prevent gun-related deaths. Gun homicides dropped after the passage of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (1993), the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act or so-called Assault Weapons Ban (1994), and the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (1998). In the absence of significant federal legislation over the past, further reductions in gun violence have stalled.
post hoc ergo propter hoc. The 1960s spike started after many states passed stricter gun laws and continued to go even higher after the 1968 Gun Control Act. Removing lead from gasoline and an aging population, fewer males 17-25, are the reasons for the drop.

It is worth putting the United States’ exceptional gun violence problem into perspective. The country´s firearm homicide rate is over six times higher than neighboring Canada’s, and 45 times as high as England’s. With the highest rates of gun homicide, suicide and accidental death in the industrialized world, it is not surprising that Americans also feel afraid.
1/3 of Canadian murders are firearms related. Less than 20 percent of Mexico's murders are firearms related.

The percentage of Americans who fear walking alone at night has increased since 2001 to nearly 4 in 10 in 2011. And yet national authorities have consistently refused introducing measures to curb gun violence. Strangely, Congress has opted instead to undermine gun control legislation, curb gun safety awareness, and abandon violence prevention programs, including some that registered positive results.
I don't think the number increased, it is just that concealed carry has been liberalized.

Meanwhile, in many states, laws intended to promote the responsible use of guns are being repealed. Instead, legislation that reproduces irresponsible firearms use – including so-called “stand your ground” laws – are being pursued. So what explains America’s reversal on gun control?
What law promotes the use of responsible use? SYG has nothing to do with gun control, it is a use of force law. SYG has been around for 130 years, and is the law in 33 states and the federal level by either statute or common law. Many of the states that passed SYG laws were simply codifying what was already common law. Georgia and Florida are prime examples of this. SYG simply means you don't have a legal duty to retreat.

Concerted efforts to roll back progressive gun regulation began by stealth. They started with quiet lobbying campaigns to reduce American citizens` capacity to diagnose firearm-related violence and thus fully apprehend the magnitude of the problem. In 1996 under considerable pressure from the pro-gun lobby, Congress de-funded firearms-related public health research at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) by 96 percent. To put this in perspective, resources devoted to firearms research constituted just 0.0018 percent of the CDC´s 2013 budget. Given that firearm deaths constitute around 1.3 percent of total national mortality, it could be reasonably argued that the CDC’s gun-related research program should have been roughly 722 times larger.
The CDC wasn't doing research, it was lobbying. None of the studies could be replicated by independent researchers, and many times the "researchers", usually MDs not criminologists, would not release their data for peer review.

Meanwhile, the Bureau for Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has been prohibited since 1978 from compiling meaningful data on firearms sales. Moreover, its field offices in states bordering Mexico where illegal arms trafficking is rife are underfunded and understaffed.
The ATF is largely incompetent, but has always been underfunded.

More recently, a 2013 Congressional rider stripped the ATF of the authority to compile data on the very gun stores it licenses – data that the authors have made use of to estimate US-Mexico arms trafficking. Making matters worse, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) is prohibited since 2003 from gathering data for the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) that it is mandated by law to administer on behalf of gun stores.

Without such detailed data, it is easy to misdiagnose the causes and consequences of gun violence, and therefore mis-prescribe the interventions needed to prevent it. Indeed, many lawmakers have expressed reluctance to pass gun legislation, arguing that they are (purportedly) ineffective. For instance, some pundits have argued that the massive stockpile of firearms in Americans hands renders firearms sales legislation impotent.
It isn't a public health issue, it is a criminology issue among other things. This paragraph is just stupid.

The available evidence suggests otherwise. One major public health study found that the risk of homicide in neighborhoods located near a gun retailer was almost 13 times higher than in those situated far from one. Another assessment found that the lapse of the Assault Weapons Ban in 2004 was responsible for a surge in the homicide rate of more than 16.4 percent across the border in Mexico.
This is one of the invalid studies mentioned above. Since the AWB did not ban anything, and "assault weapons" are used in less than three percent of all crimes, I seriously doubt it.

Still another scientific article found that homicide rates in Mexican municipalities near California, where a state-level assault weapons ban was still in effect after 2004, rose less than in municipalities near other U.S. border states. A forthcoming study links the lapse of Missouri’s background check law to an annual rise of 60 murders.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc. The cities near the borders are disputed trade routes, that is why there is violence. Since many of the weapons are automatic weapons either clandestinely manufactured or stolen from Mexican military, the AWB had nothing to do with. Also, residents are taking up arms to stand up to the cartels and the corrupt cops and military that protect them.

It is worth recalling that the stock of guns, like that of any other commodity, depreciates over time and must be replenished to remain at constant levels. The ATF was responsible for overseeing the release of more than 100 million firearms into the market between 1986 and 2011, and will likely be responsible for many more than that in the next 25 years.
And?

Some pundits claim that the true cause of gun violence in the United States has nothing to do with firearms at all. Guns don’t kill people; people kill people, they say. Armed violence is thus traced to other latent factors in American communities and individual psychological dispositions. Among the many reasons mobilized for gun-related violence is the poor state of mental health care.
Most leading criminologists and non ideologe with any critical thinking skills thinks this.

I deleted the paragraphs with the usual scapegoat "mentally ill" and video games nonsense.

While citizens bear the costs, it is ultimately the manufacturers, retailers, and marketers that profit from the country´s tsunami of gun violence. What do the numbers tell us? Some 32,163 Americans died of gunshot wounds in 2011. Another 70,000 more were non-fatally injured in the same year, and suffer debilitating physical and psychological scars. The economic cost of those losses has been estimated at $47 billion annually.
29K of which are suicides..

This grossly exceeds the industry’s economic benefit, as (generously) calculated by the National Shooting Sports Federation, by some $18 billion per year. Moreover, from 2006-2013, up to 120,000 Mexicans were murdered, roughly 50 percent of them by guns.
Environmental projects funded by the 11 percent tax. Mexico's gun murder rate is closer to 20 percent.

e most part, dIf we assume that the ATF’s sample of illegal firearms seized in Mexico, 68 percent of which were traced to sales in the United States, is representative of the country’s total holdings, we might say that roughly 3,700 Mexicans are intentionally killed by Americans guns annually. A back-of-the-envelope calculation using Mexico’s current per capita GDP of $11,000 implies an additional $1.5 billion in lifetime lost income in that country alone. While these are rough estimates they make a sharp point: the beneficiaries of the industry have a voice in Washington; the losers, for tho not.
Out of total guns seized, Mexico gave 24 percent to the ATF for tracing because of US manufacture or had markings showing it been imported in the US at one time. Out of that number, about half could be traced, and 68 percent of that number could be traced to the US. Most of those are about 20 years old. The number of those guns that were in NCIC as reported stolen is unknown. What about the 76 percent the Mexicans didn't give to the ATF? They were either stolen from the Mexican military or obviously not from the US.
 

SecularMotion

(7,981 posts)
3. I don't put gun nuts on ignore so that I can be on juries when members alert on their posts.
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 01:01 PM
Mar 2014

Last edited Tue Mar 11, 2014, 03:22 PM - Edit history (1)

But I imagine most gun nuts have me on their Jury Blacklists anyway.

And I won't waste time responding to the same old tired NRA arguments that suicides by gun are not gun violence, background checks do not keep keep criminals from getting guns, and more guns = less crime.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
6. Cite just one incident of that ever happening on DU.
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 02:49 PM
Mar 2014

Cite just one incident of that ever happening on DU.

Just 1 incident of someone posting that "suicides by gun are not gun deaths".


You wont. Because you can't. Because that has never happened. And you know it.

Bookmarking.



 

SecularMotion

(7,981 posts)
7. Peeling away the number of suicides from the total number of gun deaths
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 03:21 PM
Mar 2014

is a gun lobby tactic to lessen the statistics of gun violence.

You're right. I should have written "suicides by gun are not gun violence."

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
8. actually that isn't a gun lobby tactic to lessen the statistics
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 06:41 PM
Mar 2014

it is a prohibition lobby to inflate them. Otherwise, South Korea, Greenland, and Japan have a rope and train violence epidemic.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
11. "Peeling" them away to where, exactly?
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 01:04 AM
Mar 2014

"You're right. I should have written "suicides by gun are not gun violence."

Oh, I get it. Looking at suicides for what they are, rather than lumping them into the general term "gun violence" in an effort to misrepresent the truth, is a gun lobby tactic...

You better start calling mental health clinics and professionals, and let them know they're using gun lobby tactics, by not including gun murders into it when they talk about suicide stats.







oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
13. I don't have you on ignore.
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 10:57 AM
Mar 2014

I expect you, and all other DU members, to judge a post on it's content. Not to look at it through the glasses of your own prejudice. Am I asking, or expecting too much? Maybe, bu it is the way I look at them, and I expect nothing less from others.

freebrew

(1,917 posts)
4. The SYG laws...
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 01:51 PM
Mar 2014

have NOTHING to do with common law.

It used to be a hanging offense to shoot an unarmed person or to shoot them in the back. With SYG, not so.

I don't like Concealed gun permits. Some people don't have the sense to have a gun and those are the idiots making all the problems.

An argument says that they have to take a course and pass a test. My response is that the same is required for a driver's license. Have you driven lately? 'Nuff Said?

Personally, I own guns. I live in Missouri, in a rural area with coyotes, wild pigs and squirrels that can eat you out of house and home. I see nothing wrong with responsible gun-ownership, but that is not what the NRA is promoting. The NRA works for the gun manufacturers, not for the people. They have a vested interest in arming as many people they can, safety be damned. I wish they were as protective of the 4th amendment.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
9. Where do you get your information?
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 07:03 PM
Mar 2014

sounds like your source makes Palin look like a MENSA member.

have NOTHING to do with common law.
If there isn't a statute regarding SYG or DTR, it falls to common law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law
California is a SYG state based on its common law. Wyoming has a duty to retreat based on its common law.
It used to be a hanging offense to shoot an unarmed person or to shoot them in the back. With SYG, not so.
you still can't shoot someone in the back. Unarmed is a misnomer, someone without a weapon can kill you if there is a disparity of force. For example,a that is 6'3" 220 professional boxer or MMA fighter against someone who is either not athletic or weighs 100 pounds and is 5'4" is such a disparity. If someone who is larger and stronger than you is straddled on top of you while doing a "ground and pound" is also a disparity. The only thing that changes is the requirement to retreat if (and only if) you can and can do so safely. What doesn't change is the requirement that lethal force can only be used if faced with immediate threat, or reasonable perception of, death or grave bodily injury. I don't know about MO, but in WY neither would be capitol offenses unless it is first degree murder.

I don't like Concealed gun permits. Some people don't have the sense to have a gun and those are the idiots making all the problems.
I don't like may issue. It should be shall issue or not at all. Some people don't have the sense to have a badge and a gun. Statistically, they outnumber irresponsible CCW holders.

An argument says that they have to take a course and pass a test. My response is that the same is required for a driver's license. Have you driven lately? 'Nuff Said?
I drive a lot.

Personally, I own guns. I live in Missouri, in a rural area with coyotes, wild pigs and squirrels that can eat you out of house and home. I see nothing wrong with responsible gun-ownership, but that is not what the NRA is promoting. The NRA works for the gun manufacturers, not for the people. They have a vested interest in arming as many people they can, safety be damned. I wish they were as protective of the 4th amendment.
I don't know if either side "works for the people" but I do know that the NRA etc. have greater grassroots and have the support of more of the people than the gun control groups. All of the gun control groups are pure astro turf made up of the economic and political elite. All of their funding comes from a couple of billionaires like Bloomberg and corporate foundations like Joyce Foundation. MDA are the president and employees of VoxPop Public Relations LLC. I have no idea what the NRA's stance on the 4th Amendment, but I'm sure it is better than Feinstien's stance on the first and fourth amendments.

BTW, while the folks at MSNBC correctly point out that John Bush signed the SYG law, they forgot to tell you that it passed with large bi partisan majorities that was veto proof.
 

Token Republican

(242 posts)
12. Some follow up comments
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 01:31 AM
Mar 2014

Suicides by guns is of course gun deaths? Is it gun violence? That answer depends if you view suicide by non guns as a violent death.

There's lots of yapping about suicides in the USA. But lets look at numbers, shall we? Seems that the USA ranks 33 in the per capta rate of suicides, and a lot of the countries that have a higher rate have far more restrictive gun laws. So it seems that gun laws are unrelated to suicides. Of course, I've seen some people actually say it doesn't matter if people kill themselves by other means, just so long as its not a gun. How comforting.

Rank Country Male Female Average Year
1 Greenland[2][3] (more info) 116.9 45.0 83.0 2011[4]
2 Lithuania[5] (more info) 54.7 10.8 31.0 2012
3 South Korea[6] (more info) 38.2 18.0 28.1 2012
4 Guyana (more info) 39.0 13.4 26.4 2006
5 Kazakhstan (more info) 43.0 9.4 25.6 2008
6 China China[7] (more info) 22.23 2011
7 Belarus[8][9] 20.5 2012
8 Slovenia[10] 34.6 9.4 21.8 2011
9 Hungary[11] 37.4 8.5 21.7 2009
10 Japan (more info)[12] 21.7 2012
11 Sri Lanka (more info) 34.8 9.24 21.3 2011[13]
12 Ukraine (more info) 37.8 7.0 21.2 2009
13 Russia[14] (more info) 19.7 2013
14 Croatia[15] 30.2 10.0 19.7 2002
15 Latvia 20.8 2010 [16]
16 Moldova 17.4 2008
17 Serbia 24.9 9.0 17.3 2011[17]
18 Belgium[note 1][11][note 2] 17[18] 2009
19 Uruguay[19] 16.5 2012
20 Bhutan[20](more info) 16.2 2011
21 Finland[21] 24.6 7.9 16.0 2012
22 South Africa[22] 15.4 2005
23 Poland 27.8 3.8 15.3 2010
24 Taiwan[23] 20.5 9.7 15.1 2011
25 Estonia 27.3 4.5 14.8 2010 [16]
26 France (more info) 22.8 7.4 14.7 2010 [16]
27 Suriname 23.9 4.8 14.4 2005
28 Bosnia and Herzegovina[24] 13.3 2011
29 Austria 23.8 7.1 12.8 2009
30 Czech Republic 12.8 2010
31 Cuba 19.0 5.5 12.3 2008
32 Bulgaria 18.8 6.2 12.3 2008
33 United States[25] (more info)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Declines occurred after the passage of specific legislation designed to prevent gun-related deaths. Gun homicides dropped after the passage of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (1993), the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act or so-called Assault Weapons Ban (1994), and the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (1998). In the absence of significant federal legislation over the past, further reductions in gun violence have stalled.


This one's going to be fun. Once again, lack of any critical thinking shows. I suggest you look at the graph of the expansion of CCW rights since the 1980s.

[img][/img]

Looks like the expansion of CCW corresponds with the same time frame. But wait there's more! After the assault weapon ban expired in 2004, gun violence continued to drop.

Want more?

Here's a very telling picture.

[img][/img]

Notice anything? Those big red blotches, thats where there are the most gun deaths. If you did your homework, then you'd see they are in the locations with the most restrictive gun laws.

Oh but I know the next answer. Its because there are weak laws elsewhere and we need to restrict people who live in places where they obey the law.

Right.

Note - I realize this post is not in response to the quote. Comments are not directed to the person I am responding to.





spin

(17,493 posts)
10. Perhaps true but the firearms industry benefits far more from efforts to pass strong gun control ...
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 07:39 PM
Mar 2014

such as another assault weapons ban.

Comparing the firearm violence rate in nations which do not have a constitutional right for civilians to own firearms and without the gun culture that exists in our nation is unrealistic.

Such nations have never had the number of firearm owners and the quantity of firearms that our nation has. When only a few number of people in a nation own firearms it is definitely far easier to pass laws to basically ban most all civilian ownership of such weapons and even to confiscate them.

When at least 80,000,000 people legally own firearms and there are over 300,000,0000 such weapons in a nation it is virtually politically impossible to ban and confiscate them. You also have to consider that while a firearm may be owned by a husband, his wife and children may enjoy shooting and value such weapons for self defense, hunting and target shooting. Those of age to vote may show up at the polls to protect their right to own firearms. The only aids the Republican Party as the Democratic Party is becoming viewed as the party of gun control.

It is definitely true that firearms cause tragedy. However crime statistics show that firearm violence in our nation has decreased to levels last seen in the late 1960s. Both sides of the gun control debate chose to ignore this fact as insinuating that gun violence is on the rise helps both gun sales and the gun control movement.

In m opinion it is far better to push for laws that help to ensure that firearms can be bought and owned by those who are honest, responsible, sane and trained in firearm safety. While that would not totally eliminate all firearm violence it would definitely help and would have far more effect on gun violence than banning and confiscating all rifles and shotguns including those that resemble military weapons.

If the gun control movement was actually serious about reducing firearm violence it only seems logical that they would push for banning and confiscating all handguns as handguns are the prime weapon for gun violence in our nation. That was basically tried by the organization known as Handgun Control, Inc. back in 1980 and was an abysmal failure. Handgun Control, Inc. then morphed into the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence which adopted a more incremental approach to banning the civilian ownership of firearms in our nation and turning our nation into one with gun control laws such as exist is Canada or better yet Great Britain. The Brady Campaign had far more success than Handgun Control Inc. It even managed to push the first Federal Assault Weapons Ban through Congress. That law was so unpopular and unsuccessful that it was allowed to sunset.

The choice that the gun control movement faces is if to continue the noble but futile effort of gradually eliminating gun civilian gun ownership in our nation or to try to improve our current gun laws but still allow civilians the right to own firearms including those which are called "assault weapons." I see little hope that this will happen so consequently I see little chance of our federal gun laws improving in the near future.



 

DRAEGER

(11 posts)
14. :)
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 10:03 PM
Mar 2014

Spin, gejohnston and Token Republican... (my new favorite people here on DU)

Very happy to see intelligent people discussing this issue and providing real facts without the normal BS and Bias that all to often infest the pro/anti gun issue.

I don't consider myself Pro-Gun, although I am NOT anti-Gun either. I am an American that owns Guns. A firearm (gun) is merely a tool no different then a hammer, screwdriver or any other tool and possess absolutely NO danger unless used or handled improperly.

I do believe that anyone owning a gun should under go firearms training, practice and care. And start at an early age like I was.. rural farm boy. This training should be voluntary, NOT imposed but encouraged. I don't see a need for restrictions on type or capacity of firearms (since the ATF has been doing a fine job of this thru Class I, II & III weapons stamps/permits).

Yes guns need to be out of the hands of criminals (not likely to ever be 100%), without punishing the legal/honest people of America.

I am former military/LEO, Gunsmith, Firearms Instructor and father of several children in the Military and LEO's.

Yes I am a Democrat, just a common sense conservative democrat from back when the party made sense.

Seriously... Guns are not the problem, it's people and their mentality that are the problem.

DashOneBravo

(2,679 posts)
15. Nice
Thu Mar 13, 2014, 01:42 AM
Mar 2014

Last edited Thu Mar 13, 2014, 02:28 AM - Edit history (1)

Another thread in the RKBA.

A few facts. DU now has this for us.

Gun Control: 323 with 6,047
RKBA: 2,761 and 139,682

No wonder why you post here.

Normally I don't have time for the slow targets. But you're mildly abrasive and I'm bored.

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»Firearms industry benefit...