because that is about how much 900 cattle for 21 years would come out to. Other than the guns, what has Bundy done that Occupy hasn't done? He grazed cattle, they illegally set up encampments on public land. That makes Occupy lawlessness too.
You either believe in civil disobedience in principle or you don't. To say it is OK for Occupy to take over a city park but not OK for this guy to graze cattle is hypocrisy at best. Bundy's supporters also include anarchists and libertarians that also supported Occupy.
In case I have to explain my core values to you too:
reason before dogma; principle before party. IOW: Ed Shultz calling Laura Ingram a slut = Rush Limbaugh calling Sandra Fluke a slut. The fact that I mostly disagree with Ingram's politics is irrelevant. Mike Papantonio's and Lawrence O'Donnell's anti Mormon bigotry = Glen Beck's anti Muslim bigotry. IOW you support the rights of people you don't like. If not, you are unAmerican. Since I don't like MSNBC anymore than i like Fox, and I have no idea who this guy is, I really don't care.
Do I support this guy's cause? I don't know. I don't think there are any clean hands either way.

I do know one thing for certain: it is about western ag's decades long love/hate fest with BLM and nothing to do with gun culture. If this guy doesn't get that, he doesn't understand the issue, and his opinion worthless.

He has repeatedly thumbed his nose at the Federal Government.
Why did he not just pay the 70k and avoid all this?
He had been warned.
Numerous Court orders for him to stop.
Fines and interest
Non payment of taxes.
Avoiding taxes by conducting business in cash.
just to mention a few of the things this fine upstanding CITIZEN has done.
There is a difference between civil disobedience and lawlessness.
I am sorry but IMO he is in the wrong.

Last edited Wed Apr 16, 2014, 03:04 PM - Edit history (2)

I simply pointed out an obvious double standard. Please let me illustrate my point further.

So has every medical marijuana dispensory in the US. Are you saying if the DEA were to show up at certain smoke shops in, say, Colorado with machine guns and dogs that you have Holder's back? Didn't think so. Speaking of which, shall we discuss where these establishments get their inventory? How do you feel about pot growers who grow on public land, pollute the water, booby trap their groves, and open fire on any hiker or mountain bike rider who stumbles across the field? When I was a kid in Wyoming, WFG would stop me to check our hunting licenses etc. Even though he knew we all had guns, he got out of his truck unarmed. They only started carrying guns in the past 30 years because of pot growers and meth labs.
You are missing a big part of the story. He and the other ranchers did pay their fees until the BLM decided to limit the number of cattle to 160 head per ranch in the area in 1993, a number can not sustain, let alone have a profit, any cattle business. In 1998 the BLM banned all grazing in the area. The other ranchers complied and were forced out of business. He resisted. That is based on the inforation I have found.
So was Occupy

first I have heard of this, please cite.
first I heard of this, please cite.

not really.
I didn't say he was right or wrong. I simply said that MSNBC's problem with him had more to do with him being the wrong industry/religion/maybe voter registration.

it didn't take 20 years of court orders.

a few might have went to jail, but most of them got bored and went home, and their lives continue unchanged before they showed up. That is a lot different keeping or losing your business and home.
It still misses the basic principle, Fox and MSNBC having a double standard on the two.

public lands, he wouldn't have any problem. i can't use my condo common areas as i see fit. no one can use public lands as they see fit, if it is against the law. occupy went to jail for a short term sit-in. how much jail time has bundy spent with his 20 year defiance and theft of our collective asset?

we live by the rule of law. breaking it has consequences. just ask occupy.

Last edited Fri Apr 18, 2014, 12:57 AM - Edit history (7)

I only said that the same people who are ranting about this guy while supporting Occupy when the actions were really the same. IOW, I pointed out a double standard, no more, no less.

Some how I think it is safe to assume that you never heard of the BLM or have any idea how land issues in the west work do you? This is some in a nutshell Actually, many ranchers in the west are dependent on grazing leases. 80 percent of Nevada is owned by the BLM. 50 percent of Wyoming is fed, 48 is owned by the State. There is very little private land. Had he complied 20 years ago, he would have lost his business and home then just like his neighbors.

The BLM has broad powers. In this case, they made a rule because an environmental group threatened to sue the agency claiming the cattle were a threat to desert tortises. The science was dubious at best. The BLM made it law. If Ted Nugent became head of BLM, he could legally make a rule that you had to be an NRA member to use federal public land, and it would have the force of law and enforced by federal courts.

It was a lot more than a short term sit in. In NY, it became a sanitation and public health hazard that make the park unusable for the New Yorkers that actually paid taxes. Since the issue with Bundy is most likely a civil violation and not a criminal violation, he won't. Here is another difference: Occupy violated a city ordinance that was passed by an elected city council and elected mayor. Bundy violated a bureaucratic regulation based on dubious science.

For example? There would be no grazing fees collected, the land is still open to dirt bikes, ATVs, hiking, hunting, fishing, camping etc, none of which have to pay BLM a dime. Nobody's cattle were interfering with them.

So if the DEA started busting medical marijuana dispensaries and certain smoke shops in Colorado and Washington, you would have Holder's back right? They are still violating a federal law, passed congress and signed by FDR. Some of those shops, and the street in other states, come from growers that illegally grow on public and private land. They use chemical pesticides, dump their toxic waste in the rivers and streams, set booby traps, and open fire an anyone who stumbles on them, and they pay no taxes. They are the Kochs and worse with tattoos. When I was a kid, most game wardens in the west rarely carried guns, or if they did it stayed in the truck. Wyoming game wardens would stop hunters to inspect the tag and age of the deer. It always amazed me as a kid that a LE type would stop and approach a car unarmed, knowing that the occupants were armed. The pot growers and meth labs changed that. Now they have to carry guns. I carry when I back pack in some areas because of those assholes. God forbid some hiker or cowboy has to defend himself from one of these greedy sociopaths. Sociopath is really the correct word for anyone who will commit murder to protect their profits, be it a car company who calculates the cost/benefit of profits vs wrongful death suits and a drug dealer/grower who is willing to personally pull the trigger. That isn't to say that I agree with prohibition, simply showing one of the ugly sides of the industry that prohibition created.

How about jailing those who knownly employ undocumented workers? They are also violating the law.
How about the BLM who threatened to kill anyone who stepped outside the "first amendment zone" including those armed with only cameras?

I didn't say I believed in his cause, I actually don't know enough about it. Being from the rural west, I understand a lot of the issues more, but not enough facts of this specific case. Now that it has been political, I only know that I can count on Fox and MSNBC telling it like it isn't.