Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forum"despite objections from most Democrats..."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026900204Yeah, about that... If you find yourself siding with Scott Walker (R) on this, and I know some of you gunthusiasts here will, then you're clearly on the wrong website.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)silencing dissent.
sarisataka
(18,770 posts)of another politician
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)sarisataka
(18,770 posts)How often Gun Control and Republican policies mesh
-stop and frisk
-seizure of private property
-absolute loyalty
-secret lists
-bureaucratic determination of rights
-more money=more rights
Just to name a few
Prominent Republicans for Gun Control
-Nixon
-Reagan
-Bloomberg (independent my ass. He has helped elect more TPers to office than Democrats)
beevul
(12,194 posts)ileus
(15,396 posts)How we ever allowed the repukes to steal one of the most important issues concerning our rights is beyond me. Want to sweep 50 states in an election, honestly stop trying to erode the bill of rights.
Killing rights does not a progressive make.
benEzra
(12,148 posts)to right-leaning law-and-order voters, thereby peeling some of them away from the repubs in the early '90s. Instead, it backfired spectacularly and drove millions of gun-owning Dems and indies to either sit home or vote (R) in '94, '96, '00, and '04. Unfortunately, the Third Way and affiliates doubled down and made it a Tier 1 shibboleth in the late '90s and through the '00's, and with help from plenty of Wall Street and foundation money, it gradually took over the party. Which is how a traditionally right-leaning authoritarian position (UK, Australia, the Brady Campaign, Jim Crow, the Mulford Act, the Sullivan Law) became transmogrified into a "progressive" one.
If John F. Kennedy were alive today, he'd be kicked out of the party over his ownership of an AR-15, and be the subject of a daily Two Minutes Hate over his enjoyment of target shooting.
Shamash
(597 posts)Human101948
(3,457 posts)In November 1976, the NRAs old guard Board of Directors fired Carter and 80 other employees associated with the more expansive view of the Second Amendment and implicit distrusting any government firearm regulation. For months, the Carter cadre secretly plotted their revenge and hijacked the NRAs annual meeting in Cincinnatti in May 1977. The meeting had been moved from Washington to protest its new gun control law. Winkler writes that Carters top deputy Neal Knox was even more extreme than himwanting to roll back all existing gun laws, including bans on machine guns and saying the federal government had killed Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy as part of a plot to advance gun control.
....After the coup, the NRA ramped up donations to congressional campaigns. And in 1977, new articles on the Second Amendment appeared in American Rifleman, Burbick noted, rewriting American history to legitimize the armed citizen unregulated except by his own ability to buy a gun at whatever price he could afford. That revisionist perspective was endorsed by a Senate Judiciary Subcommittee chaired by Utah Republican Orrin Hatch in 1982, when staffers wrote a report concluding it had discovered long lost proof of an individuals constitutional right to bear arms.
The NRAs fabricated but escalating view of the Second Amendment was ridiculed by former U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Warren Burgera conservative appointed by President Richard Nixonin a PBS Newshour interview in 1991, where he called it one of the greatest pieces of fraudI repeat the word fraudon the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/14/the_nra_once_supported_gun_control/
Shamash
(597 posts)The NRA then was vastly different than the NRA now. But I do not see the gun control movement as having enough intellectual depth to recognize that a politician can be a liberal and still like to shoot. Apparently, this is not nearly liberal enough for some:
And the "ban them all" crowd would probably fail JFK on the gun purity test as well. FYI, if Ms. Giffords carried that gun into NY or CT it would be a felony with a mandatory minimum 2 year sentence.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)You care enough to try and play "gotcha" over this shooting, because guns are too awesome to criticize.
Shamash
(597 posts)Since I did not play "gotcha" in any way and neither did I say or imply anything about guns being too awesome to criticize.
However, if you wish to disagree with my description of Gabrielle Giffords as liberal, feel free to do so, just so everyone can see how far from the mainstream your position on the issue actually is.
Shamash
(597 posts)Saying an argument is bad because a bad person said it is one of the core logical fallacies, which you at least really ought to know by now. I don't automatically assume everything you say is wrong just because you are the one saying it. I judge what you say on its merits.
Someday, a well-informed, rational gun control advocate will present a sound argument to support their beliefs here on DU. Today is not that day.
Tomorrow does not look good, either.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I mean, it's a Republican, after all.
Shamash
(597 posts)I might agree with it, I might not. But your statement is exactly as logically sound as saying "Scott Walker said the sun rose in the east this morning, so if you agree with that you are clearly on the wrong web site."
Ad hominem makes it an inherently flawed argument and that's as far as I need to pursue the matter. If you do not have the chops to make a non-flawed argument, that is not a failing on my part.
jimmy the one
(2,708 posts)shamash: JFK was also an NRA member. Don't forget the hate he'd pick up for that. Clearly not a liberal.
I doubt JFK was a life member by choice, just that the nra awarded 'life membership' to all US presidents back then (soon to be curtailed).
As well, that was the pre-knox nra prior early 70's, the benign nra which offered all presidents honorary memberships, when nra was often for guncontrol efforts, including partially GCA68, which was also supported by Charlton heston.
And here's what JFK thought of 2ndA: John F. Kennedy supported {2ndA} rights for Americans, saying in an April 1960 statement, By calling attention to a well-regulated militia, the security of the nation and the right of each citizen to keep and bear arms, our founding forefathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of government tyranny, which gave rise to the Second Amendment, will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains a major declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important. http://watchdogwire.com/florida/2013/11/18/remembering-president-john-f-kennedy-nra-lifetime-member/
Shamash: Someday, a well-informed, rational gun control advocate will present a sound argument to support their beliefs here on DU...
Well, one just did to debunk your unsound notions.
In 1969, U.S. President Richard M. Nixon resigned {&/or disavowed} his honorary life membership to the NRA. 1995, former President H. W. Bush also resigned his life membership to the organization..
clffrdjk
(905 posts)krispos42
(49,445 posts)Delicious! And where do I go to sign my loyalty pledge?
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)to be kept defenseless if confronted by a rapist or stalker?
sarisataka
(18,770 posts)women are responsible for whom they date. Make a bad choice and the consequences are on you.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=168313
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I would want to make sure any man I was with would respect me enough to allow me make my own choices about my safety. I could not see myself with some guy demanding, "Honey, you'll just have to remember to try and relax and take one for the good of society."
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Blaming the woman for her own death and refusing to edit or apologize. Just sickening.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)I'm at work and get shit service on my phone, and I can't eat at my desk.
Foreign Object Damage.
Why bother, when you're going to be like this?
Do you side with President Bush (R) that ketchup is a tasty condiment?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Why do I get the feeling the only reason why he hasn't replied to you is because he is now racing about his house throwing out bottles and packets of ketchup?
krispos42
(49,445 posts)I can't hear him over the roar of the crickets.
sarisataka
(18,770 posts)the Gun Control lies in bed with Bloomberg- who specifically targets Democrats in tight elections. He is responsible for helping elect Tom Cotton (R)- whom, if you recall, likes to author letters to countries, attempting to undermine President Obama's (D) negotiations.
Who are you siding with?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)If you side with a billionaire Republican control-freak corporatist whose policies unduly targetted minorities does that mean you're on the wrong website?
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)Also. If you want a waiting period, then I could understand it being on the first gun somebody owns.
What is the benefit of making somebody wait 48 hours to buy a .22 handgun, when they already own 3 other handguns?
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)For instance, about 15 years ago a hundred or so handguns were intercepted in NYC. The shipping manifest listed them as auto parts and they were traced back to Dallas gun stores where they were purchased over a weekend. Since SC dropped its one gun a month law the number of illegal guns from SC in neighboring states has risen dramatically. No link, working from memory but google is your friend.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)beevul
(12,194 posts)In fairness, It should be pointed out, that in the below two threads about brady bunch, MDA and VPC trying to suppress a fundraiser for Democrats, EM was all over it, telling people that suppressing a fundraiser for Democrats was a terrible thing to do. He put party before issue like a champ, and now is simply asking that we do the same.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172140392
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172140350
Wait.
None of the above actually happened. That's right. None of the above, actually happened.
EM was totally silent when Democrat fundraisers were targeted by bloombergs two groups and the VPC, yet now comes over here expecting to rub our noses in something?
That means a lot, coming from the host of the Bloomberg forum GCRA.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...including the OP, as you noted.
So much for their moral authority...
beevul
(12,194 posts)sarisataka
(18,770 posts)Gun Control Groups Urge Cancellation of Hollywood Fundraiser for Mark Begich and Mark Pryor
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172140350
brought as an OP by one of the most prolific gun control posters is one of gun control's greatest success stories. Backed by Bloomberg's money and his plethora of organizations two Democratic Senators were unseated by their Tea Party opponents.
Yet gun control proponents demand purity tests and ask who do Second Amendment supporters stand with.
The complacent silence of gun control proponents shows who they stand with...
The Associated Press called the race for Sullivan last week, but Begich refused to concede until 30,000 remaining ballots were counted. Sullivan leads Begich by 48 percent to 45 percent with most of the vote now counted.
The win is one of six seats Republicans need to pick up to regain control of the Senate.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,482 posts)DonP
(6,185 posts)Obviously they need to be purged from the party immediately. If we lose more seats, so what, at least they'll be "pure".
As our latest version of the Party Zampolit, will you be starting those recall petitions?
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)Last I looked you were merely the host of a safe haven who bans any poster not completely in lockstep with what YOU think is right.
Does your "logic" apply to not agreeing with Hillary 100% or Sanders 100% or not agreeing with the President 100%?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...who sooner or later start to believe that they run the place.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)until one of them told them that they deserved the hide they got.
It's kind of understandable they are so bitter and angry, after all they've been on a pretty consistent losing streak for years now
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)For a self delete.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)The OP In GD didn't last very long before it got locked.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Matrosov
(1,098 posts)Make no mistake about many "progressive gun owners" here being nothing more than rabid Republicans having little better to do in their lives than to pose at Democrats who just happen to regurgitate every Republican and NRA inspired talking point
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)a Republican billionaire whose policies disproportionately targeted minorities and whose campaigning for gun control gave the GOP historic wins with recall elections.
What website should his supporters post on?
virginia mountainman
(5,046 posts)As statehouse, congressional, and governorships fall..
Shamash
(597 posts)From the journal "How to crush any
P.S.: If you have any evidence to back up your assertion about "many "progressive gun owners" here", I have left an infinite amount of comment space below for you to provide it.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)a Republican billionaire whose policies disproportionately targeted minorities and whose campaigning for gun control gave the GOP historic wins with recall elections.
What website should his supporters post on?
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)That is if you have the gumption to.
Matrosov
(1,098 posts)How strange how many people here never post outside the Gun Control & RPKA group, and those who do, often aren't seen anywhere but in gun threads in General Discussion.
I'd have an easier time believing there weren't a bunch of RW trolls on here if it weren't for the fact that the people on many firearms-related and right-wing forums seem to preoccupied with trolling DU.
Google "trolling Democratic Underground" and "trolling DU" and you'll get a huge list of links to firearms/GOP/RW/88 forums, from AR15.com and even Stormfront to some place called Conservative Underground.
Shamash
(597 posts)It is seldom useful for me to post a "me too!" message on something I agree with, which is pretty much every liberal hot-button issue. I'll do it occasionally for things that are really exciting, but that is about it. This is the only issue where my fellow liberals treat me and 30% of my Democratic friends like we had swastikas carved onto our foreheads, and I consider it well worth my time to mock the ones who are beyond hope and help to educate those who are genuinely interested in learning more about a subject before forming an opinion on it.
Two things to take away from this: First, you made an accusation and when called on it, refused to back it up with anything but generalized demonization and diversion. Here, let me make it easy on you. You said:
So, you didn't say "all" of us. So, if you are incapable of naming the ones you think are "rabid Republicans", maybe you can narrow it down by naming some of the "progressive gun owners" here who aren't? Because if you can't or won't name anyone who is or is not, it looks an awful lot like you are just engaging in random shit-slinging to cause doubt or suspicion. You know, part of that "it is also important to take advantage of natural divisions that exist between these various groups of gun owners" that I read about somewhere. Oh right, that was you. (I love your journals, btw. I've archived copies so I can continue to quote them in case they ever disappear.)
Second, your favorite group is Gun Control & RKBA. Why can we not make the assumption that you are a right-wing plant simply trying to make Democrats look like intolerant haters? I mean, your clearly stated position is that you want to ban all gun ownership, which would cause the party to lose 3 out of 10 Democratic votes for at least a generation. Sounds like the divisive sort of thing a not-very-bright right-wing troll would try to do.
And it doesn't seem to be any flimsier than your unsupported assertion...
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)that makes us RW trolls?
That's got to be the stupidest fucking thing I've heard all week.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Because that's what we do, apparently.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)tie themselves into knots condemning his vote on the PLCAA and how they misrepresent what it actually does.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Another RW hot button issue, as we all know.
Response to Electric Monk (Original post)
cherokeeprogressive This message was self-deleted by its author.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)Unlike SOME groups, the GD SOP actually means what it says, to the dismay of a few extremists.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)As the host blocks who he disagrees with even if there is no SOP violation. Like a single self deleted post.