Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumNumber of Ohio CCW doubles in last three years.
http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2012/02/number_of_ohioans_legally_carr.html#incart_mceCOLUMBUS, Ohio - The number of Ohioans who have licenses to legally carry concealed firearms has more than doubled in the past three years, according to figures from the Ohio Attorney General's Office.
With another 49,825 people obtaining the license in 2011, that pushed the figure from 2009 to 2011 to 153,853 newly issued licenses. That includes the one-year record of 56,691 in 2009.
At this point, more than 265,000 Ohioans now have permits making them eligible to carry their firearms hidden in their clothing or vehicles. And gun rights activists expect that number to continue to climb this year, likely eclipsing the 300,000 mark.
"Eventually you aren't going to know who you might come into contact with who legally is carrying a gun, and that's the point," said Jeff Garvas, of Ohioans for Concealed Carry. "Eventually people with bad intentions aren't going to realize who they are coming into contact with."
(More at Link)
It is becoming more socially acceptable to be armed. Ohio's 21 and over population is about 8,250,000. About 3.2% now have CCWs and the number is climbing.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)DonP
(6,185 posts)Do you depend on ignorance of the readers to try and make your "pointless" points in every forum, or just here?
Or do you actully believe that a permit holder went into the school to shoot it up?
rfranklin
(13,200 posts)Probably the kid took Daddy's gun to school...
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)rfranklin
(13,200 posts)but as we keep pumping more guns into more places, the opportunities for them to be misused multiplies.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Firearms don't necessarily distribute themselves randomly so as to fill available space uniformly.
Owning a firearm carries moral responsibility. Basic gun safety, including the importance of proper storage of firearms, should be taught in public schools.
rfranklin
(13,200 posts)You have never heard of adults leaving firearms around the house and kids getting their hands on them with tragic consequences?
All those fine ideas are great, but there is never 100% compliance in practice.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)I made a concrete proposal here - Teaching basic gun safety in public schools.
Do you have anything constructive to bring into the discussion?
burf
(1,164 posts)already exists, it called Eddie Eagle. But we can't use a proven successful program teaching gun safety because it from the dreaded NRA!
http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)I would like to see the (usually four) basic rules of safe gun handling, and procedures for safely unloading a few common types of weapons taught in public schools. Also give teens and young adults an awareness of the importance, and legal implications, of safely storing firearms at all times.
A lot of young parents naively believe that their children are "special" and will obey rules about not messing with their parents' things. That too often leads to a young child picking up a gun and shooting someone, or a troubled teenager stealing a weapon and taking it to school.
I believe giving all kids a basic education in gun safety would address both of those kinds of problems.
burf
(1,164 posts)and get them going in the right direction.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)leaving patio doors unlocked and kids accessing the pool with tragic consequences?
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)But the number of guns in circulation has been increasing for years, and violent crime has been declining for decades.
DonP
(6,185 posts)But that doesn't stop some posters from referring to anyone that does something criminal as an "RKBA Loon" in other threads on the subject.
Trying to conflate law abiding gun owners with criminal activity is probably the lowest form of criticism there is.
But it's not uncommon among gun control supporters who rely on the ignorance (small i) and manipulated outrage of the people that don't follow the issue.
The latest reports are that they are holding one student but no name has been released and that as of now no one was killed, but there were three wounded with no other details yet.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Our lax gun laws allow these mass shootings to occur on a regular basis, which creates an immense amount of unnecessary suffering & death.
And you know who's OK with all that unnecessary suffering & death? People who don't want reasonable & rational gun control laws.
Response to baldguy (Reply #12)
Post removed
rfranklin
(13,200 posts)Crime is down in areas with very restrictive gun laws as well. So what's your point?
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)And I agree.
DonP
(6,185 posts)Obviously more guns in circulation does not equal more crime.
Wow! With the agreement that this has nothing to do with CCW in Ohio and that crime is down overall even with record high gun sales for the last three years, that's two agreements in one thread.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)...than any other wealthy nation.
As far as the crime drop, there are a few things to keep in mind. The first is that while the number of gun sales (actually the number of background checks) has been rising, the number of gun owners has actually declined since the early 90s, a decline that coincided with the 90s drop in crime. Of course, since a lot of things affect crime rates, then the drop in crime neither proves nor disproves any relationship between guns and crime rates. But, studies that have looked at the data in more detailed, state-by-state or county-by-county level have in fact found that gun ownership rates have a significant effect on homicide rates. For example:
http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/dranove/htm/dranove/coursepages/Mgmt%2520469/guns.pdf
and infers the marginal external cost of handgun ownership. The estimates utilize a superior proxy
for gun prevalence, the percentage of suicides committed with a gun, which we validate. Using
county- and state-level panels for 20 years, we estimate the elasticity of homicide with respect to gun
prevalence as between +0.1 and +0.3. All of the effect of gun prevalence is on gun homicide rates.
Under certain reasonable assumptions, the average annual marginal social cost of household gun
ownership is in the range $100 to $1800.
http://home.uchicago.edu/~ludwigj/papers/JPubE_guns_2006FINAL.pdf
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)not to sound like a anti-intellectual gun militant (or an arrogant "constitutional law prof" at a tier 4 degree mill)
In the first study, is he basing gun ownership rates only on Guns & Ammo sales?
Did he control for people switching to blogs like this one?
Did he control for new gun buyers not really being into guns as a hobby? The Florida county I live in can be described as Long Island and Queens South. Take a CCW class full of former New Yorkers sometime. I did. At the range, the instructor used house owned .38 revolvers for the practical part of the class. Some of them (including the guy next to me) did not know how to load it because they thought the cylinder release was the safety.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Since state and county level data for gun ownership is not available, both studies used proxy variables. The first study used Guns and Ammo sales as a proxy for gun ownership. The second study used fraction of suicides with guns as proxy.
Proxy variables are not going to be exactly identical to the underlying variable of interest, just closely correlated.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)but I tend to see anti-intellectualism and "pretending to know" (faux-intellectualism?) as two sides of the same coin.
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)The data does not support your assertion.
We have record numbers of guns in circulation, ever-more liberal gun laws, and yet violent crime is continuing its decades-long downward trend.
SteveW
(754 posts)oneshooter
(8,614 posts)shadowrider
(4,941 posts)when anti-gun people are queried what THEIR ideas are of "reasonable and rational gun control laws".
They don't have any besides registration (a no go), microstamping (a no go) or fines for stolen guns used in crimes (a no go).
So, they choose to ignore only to pop up elsewhere with the same BS.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)come up with any ideas that would be acceptable to both the people, or the courts. That means that they cannot answer truthfully and thus they run from the light.
Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
Simo 1939_1940
(768 posts)During a civil discussion once with a group of fellow liberal friends a woman was arguing passionately for gun registration. I realized that she was equating registration with background checks, and told her that there was no connection between the two. Once my friends realized how little they actually knew about the subject, the subject quickly changed.
rl6214
(8,142 posts)Proof please...obviously if you are going to throw this out there you have got some sort of documentation that proves it.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)pipoman
(16,038 posts)ignoramus think that has gotten gun control where it is today.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)The signs say so.
Exactly what does that school shooting have to do with a CCW?
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)High school students don't have CCWs.
rl6214
(8,142 posts)rl6214
(8,142 posts)Duh
DWC
(911 posts)for their own safety and security.
Makes me proud!
Semper Fi,
Loudly
(2,436 posts)Pretty simple and predictable result.
I need to become armed because I see society arming up and it makes me nervous.
A self-fullfilling, downward spiral into utter madness.
DonP
(6,185 posts)No matter how the latest cable news cycle reports make you feel, gun sales have been at record high levels for the last few years.
Now before you start ranting, you should also know that the FBI has been reporting record low levels of violent and gun crimes, the lowest in 40 years.
Now, can you explain how a record low violent crime rate is due to the availability of guns to the class?
Loudly
(2,436 posts)DonP
(6,185 posts)You claimed that it was somehow caused by gun proliferation.
I just pointed out the actual facts, that gun crime is way down in spite of record high gun sales.
I'm sorry if that "harshes your mellow", but it's the facts.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)DonP
(6,185 posts)Since your logic of more guns equals more crime fell apart, according to the FBI reports.
And you can't allow that more guns might have had any impact resulting in less crime.
Your last resort is to claim that even though there really is less crime with more guns, there might be even less, less crime if we had even less guns.
Yeah and that makes sense, using the "Because you think so" support system you normally rely on for your "ideas".
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)The fact of the matter is, in spite of record numbers of firearms in circulation, violent crime continues to decline as it has for decades.
Could it be lower still? Sure. If you made drugs legal I bet it would have twenty times the impact on crime than if every firearm on the planet vanished.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Gun carriers would find some rationale to continue carrying -- like, you never know when a rabid coyote might break into Chuck E Cheeze and attack those waiting in line or something.
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)If crime were almost zero, then it would not matter if people carried guns or not.
No harm, no foul.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)BiggJawn
(23,051 posts)People die horrendously in car wrecks, too. Oh, but that's a regrettable, yet acceptable loss because you see nothing wrong with owning a motor vehicle, yes?
Do you hang around the motorhead forum calling the people there "Rude Dragracers"?
People slip and die in the bathtub. Do you propose we'd be safer as a stinky un-washed nation?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)SteveW
(754 posts)According to the F.B.I., crime in general and crime involving guns has been coming down since the before the turn of the century.
"self-fullfilling, downward spiral into utter madness" does not need to occur; you don't have to buy a firearm, and purchasing one doesn't lead to spirals or madness.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts).....and you attribute that to 3 percent having concealed weapons?
SteveW
(754 posts)BTW, how does the "3 percent having concealed weapons" argument pertain to this?
The drop in crime and the concomitant rise in gun-ownership merely shows that the slop-slogan "more guns = more crimes" has not been proven.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)The notion that guns are the reason is absurd.
How many street cameras have been installed in your city the last fivea years.......just one of many examples.....
SteveW
(754 posts)Why do you proclaim "nonsense," when I didn't say anything about 3% of anything? There are many points of speculation floating about to explain the drop in crime; your "street cameras" speculation being just one.
Again: The drop in crime and the concomitant rise in civilian firearm ownership only shows that the argument "more guns = more crime" is not proven. That is all. That is hard logic and not "nonsense."
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Read what you wrote.
I didn't bring up anything about three percent.
More guns may or may not indeed mean more crime. We may not ever know since there are other variables as you acknowledge.
Same is true about the argument more guns means less crime...it may or may not be true.
Fair?
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Read what you wrote.
I didn't bring up anything about three percent.
More guns may or may not indeed mean more crime. We may not ever know since there are other variables as you acknowledge.
Same is true about the argument more guns means less crime...it may or may not be true.
Fair?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)More people may be carrying their guns with them, but I don't see a lot of folks who are opposed to guns saying "shoot, it's a wonderful way to show you are hip."