none of the car crashes were suicides.

My mother knows the father of a young lady whose last, angry words to him were "maybe I'll just go and drive into a truck", later that day she was killed in a head-on collision with a semi.

We may never know, but it is certainly a possibility.

To be honest, though, suicides are almost definitely an infinitesimal fraction of MV deaths, and a significant fraction of gun deaths. Still, I notice that quite a few of those states are gun rights superstars. I'd really like to see some unbiased research into what the causes are, here, and whether they have more to do with guns or cars, and what can be done to prevent them.

...like Ashaad Sharif. He allegedly tied one end of a rope around a tree and the other end around his neck, then drove off in his car at high speed. He lived in the UK.

Is that a MV death or a rope death or a hanging death?

...British standards for reporting it's a decapitation.

certainly has a long history of people loosing their heads over things.

Bowling for ashes, perhaps?

...shortly after going to work for Marconi/GEC. It kind of creeped me out. I'm glad I didn't kill myself.

More: http://www2.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/sdi-deaths.html

but that is a rather disturbing set of events...

...were an odd bunch.

18,735 for 2009. This 'analysis' is a joke.

Some car crashes are the deliberate result of suicides. This especially applies to single-occupant, single-vehicle accidents. "The automobile lends itself admirably to attempts at self-destruction because of the frequency of its use, the generally accepted inherent hazards of driving, and the fact that it offers the individual an opportunity to imperil or end his life without consciously confronting himself with his suicidal intent." There is always the risk that a car accident will affect other road users, for example a car that brakes abruptly or swerves to avoid a suicidal pedestrian may get into a collision with something else on the road.

The real percentage of suicides among car accidents is not reliably known; studies by suicide researchers tell that "vehicular fatalities that are suicides vary from 1.6% to 5%". Some suicides are misclassified as accidents, because suicide must be proven; "It is noteworthy that even when suicide is strongly suspected but a suicide note is not found, the case will be classified an 'accident.'"

Some researchers believe that suicides disguised as traffic accidents are far more prevalent than previously thought. One large-scale community survey (in Australia) among suicidal persons provided the following numbers: "Of those who reported planning a suicide, 14.8% (19.1% of male planners and 11.8% of female planners) had conceived to have a motor vehicle "accident"... Of all attempters, 8.3% (13.3% of male attempters) had previously attempted via motor vehicle collision."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_methods#Traffic_collisions

Regardless, suicides are deaths and handguns are the preferred tool of choice. A tool which has an even higher success rate than using a vehicle.

a friend of my brother's chose drinking battery acid instead of any gun. It is a higher success rate only because, by your post, is the most often used in the US. Countries with a lower gun ownership (and as high and higher suicide rates) prefer ropes.

...gun owning public bears some burden because suicidal folks chose to kill themselves using a gun because guns are effective?


I mean if you want to kill yourself you'd have to be crazy or stupid to pick a less effective method right? One clear solution would be to add something to the water which would make the suicidal also either crazy or stupid. Or maybe they could just start ingesting whatever those advocating rampant gun bans are on. IMHO they're either crazy or stupid.

Surely you mean 'people' kill people, NOT SUV's....

Or am I gonna get sued now by the NRA and GOA for stealing their main rebuttal line

http://www.amazon.com/The-Second-Amendment-1-ebook/dp/B007A53RX0/ref=zg_bs_157321011_5

They make the NRA look good.

This might make a good case for improving safety education for both drivers and gun owners.

since most of them are suicides and not accidents. They are comparing apples carrots.

all modern firearms have them without said requirements. In that way, the firearms industry in the US and Europe have been far more responsible than the auto industry.
deaths from these guns are rare enough to be irrelevant.
already federal law.
has been done since the 1930s.
which is what this bullshit is about. In other words, they do nothing.

As the gun-religionists know, more guns = more safety. These places just need to pass laws FORCING people to own guns. It will have great side benefits too. An armed fetus won't be aborted so quickly!

I suspect they hold their meetings just down the street from Obama's secret caliphate task force and upstairs from his birth certificate forgery shop...

Gun-religionists are a creation of the right wing & the NRA, so they hold their meetings at a Koch Brothers facility (the Kocks who helped push SYG laws thru in various states).

Mind telling me where I can find the next meeting? I haven't been to church in ages!

You know, the right-wing gun lobby.

Unless you can show us their other meetings?

That should be easy since their entire website is open to the public.

Or are they all secret meetings that they hold in the basement of decommissioned churches with an upside down cross, the Koch Bros. and their evil ALEC minions that are currently busy running 49 states with no serious interference from anyone in the Democrat Party?

Boy, that makes gun control backers look pretty impotent politically. Can't even reverse one single law in 49 states, more than a few with "D" Governors and legislatures?

...and for some inexplicable reason, has chosen not to share any actual links with us.

You'd think (given his insistence that this is a real religion), that a little more evidence that it actually exists might be forthcoming. Hell, even the SubGenii have more of a Internet presence.

The NRA has LOTS of meetings, just the tools known as gun-religionists aren't invited to them. Gun-religionists do the legwork for free, and are herded by the NRA leadership, who have plenty of meetings with people like the Koch Sucker Brothers to plan out their agenda.

guess I'll be waiting a looooooong time

"Gun religionist" makes about as much sense as an "armed fetus".

Just go to an NRA convention, and you'll find loads of gun-religionists. Call it a working definition.

I'll bet not which means your really don't know squat.

So you're saying that the NRA doesn't have meetings - that you aren't invited to - of it many rich reich-wing patrons?

I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interesting in....

There's only the one annual convention, and that's open to all members, not just bloated plutocrats. Yeah, it's expensive, but it's not a sinister meeting of the Illuminati or something. It's a bunch of speeches and country music, mostly. Shady shit is usually handled by executives and managers in private conferences, not "conventions."

I know that it is important to echo back NRA talking points, but really, you might want to try to read the posts you respond to...

but you suddenly shifted from criticizing the pro-gun crowd that does show up to the open convention to talking about backroom meetings with donors. rl614 didn't mention whether or not there are closed meetings, but then you accused him of denying they exist. I'm not sure where you're goin'.

He dosen't either, he just like to throw crap out to see what sticks. It may be what's in his bong that he's smoking.

because they all read like they were written by a blindfolded kid hitting a hanging keyboard with a stick at the worst birthday party ever. Your only two approaches to posting are 1. accuse someone of NRA talking points and 2. say "gun religionists" over and over hoping someone will find it clever. Get a new shtick.

So you hate my posts. Probably hate me too. I know gun-religionists hate anybody who doesn't think guns are the answer to every problem. So it goes.

Your posts are like junk mail. A person might "hate" them in theory, but in practice we've all learned to shake our heads and move on.



Nuh-uh. Hatred is a strong potion, reserved for important things. You aren't, and you aren't good at stirring up much more than confused bemusement.



And this is why. You just swing in the dark instead of replying to people. I know it's supposed to be insulting, but it's so meaninglessly vague and ineptly delivered.

Up your game.

where exactly was any of that said, except in your mind?

D'OH! is right.

Most vehicular deaths are accidents. Most gun deaths are intentional. Many commit suicide sitting in their cars sucking CO fumes.

WISQARS only gives 104 'motor vehicle overall' suicides, but 9000 'suffocation' suicides (which I bet would include hanging) and 6398 'poisoning' suicides. I assume CO inhalation deaths in cars are counted in one of the latter categories...

So they recommend: heightened restrictions on the carrying of loaded guns in public;

In Texas in 2009 there were over 400K people with CHLs and only one (1) murder conviction of a person who had a CHL at the time of the crime. Some years there are two convictions, some years there are none. Most years there is only one. Therefore there is very little danger to the public from legal concealed carry.

BTW - In those murders we don't know if having a CHL aided in the commission of the crime. We don't even know if a gun was used.

....I'm sure that was done in an objective manner...

You don't like the modified method where one step says "select data that fits the conclusion"???

and also legitimate shootings by police.

If so, it would be reasonable to assume that people are more frequently using their firearms for legal self defense as the sale of firearms has skyrocketed in recent years and also some form of concealed carry is now legal in all but one state. Many reports say that concealed carry classes are very popular in many areas of our nation.



First let's look at police shootings in Chicago. Other major police departments have also have reported more police shootings.

I may get some flack for posting the following excerpt but I would point out that that an excerpt from Violence Policy Center (VPC) was used in the OP. The VPC has as its goal banning most types of firearms in the United States and is hardly unbiased and fair. (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_Policy_Center)

I will agree that the post mentioning the VPC report provides a good basis for a lively discussion in the Gungeon.



The facts that gasoline prices have skyrocketed and that cars today are far safer than they were in the past could explain how deaths from car accidents are not increasing at an alarming rate.

The fact that in some states there may be more deaths from firearms than from automobiles can also be effected by many factors. In some cases civilians who did not previously own firearms or have licenses to carry them have been able to stop criminal attack by using their weapon. Is this necessarily a bad thing?

We have a failed war on drugs and it is possible that drug gangs are becoming more violent. I am disturbed by the fact that it appears that criminals are more willing to engage in gun fights with the police. I keep reading news reports of the drug violence occurring south of our border and fear that it may creep into our nation.

What's their problem with archery?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_Policy_Center

they will then concentrate on archery equipment.

They will then focus on knives and insist that all kitchen knives have blunt points and that people can't legally carry locking pocket knives only very short slip joint knives.

It's good to see transportation getting safer.

It's unfortunate that the VPC didn't bother to distinguish between justifiable "gun deaths," suicides, and crimes.

Just saying.

Some shooting deaths are actually justified.

They both suck, but even Faux News has more credibility than the VPC!
- That's pretty freaking sad!

That would be about like using the NRA as a source. I don't trust anything the VPC spews out.

Seriously citing the VPC? lol. Might as well cite from huffpost and stormfront.

High unemployment reduces the number of people commuting and high gas prices stops many people from making casual trips. With less driving there will naturally be fewer accidents.

The VPC study also shows that in 40 states there are more automotive fatalities.

The VPC study is a statistical version of three card montie. It compares a set of accidents with cars to deliberate actions plus accidents with guns. It would be more honest to compare accident rates to accident rates.

Back in the 1990s they were trying to get congress to regulate guns as being unsafe. Looks like they are trying an old playbook again.

Once you remove the suicides:

State Gun Accident and Homicide MV Accident and Homicide
Alaska 17 84
Arizona 228 807
Colorado 108 557
Indiana 267 714
Michigan 507 962
Nevada 97 254
Oregon 55 391
Utah 30 256
Virginia 285 826
Washington 118 574

http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/State/StatebyState.cfm?NoVariables=Y&CFID=50299644&CFTOKEN=44328826

How come there is no "anti" comments at Huff Po?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/gun-deaths-exceed-motor-v_b_1536793.html

The best comment, imo, was this one:

If the Joyce Foundation ever boots Josh Sugarman, he can make some coin from his side 'job'- Federal firearms dealer. Yes folks, one of
the nation's foremost complainers about guns has a license to sell them. Talk about working both sides of the fence...

P.T. Barnum would be so proud!

there were none as far as I dug. Or they were greatly outnumbered.

After looking at them, I can't help but wonder how many are serious and how many are parodies.

Also, it looks like according to the 2010 numbers, the total number of gun deaths nationwide is almost as high as the total number of motor vehicle deaths, and if the trend continues the number of gun deaths might be higher nationwide in a few more years.

It's also important to mention that motor vehicles provide huge benefits to society, whereas guns do not. A certain number of motor vehicle deaths are a tragic but somewhat unavoidable consequence of the fact that a modern society requires a lot of cars and trucks to be driven around. On the other hand, gun deaths are, for the most part, entirely unnecessary, and other developed nations, who aren't inflicted with the NRA's right-wing "gun rights" ideology, have far fewer gun deaths than the US.

2. Those figures count suicides, which is 'method optional' (so to speak). There are well over 100 million firearms in civilian hands in the US, and yet we have
a lower suicide rate than otherwise nice places like Japan, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland and France:

http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide_rates/en/

So does that mean that in those 10 states, the driving is REALLY crappy or simply that they also happen to be the ten states full of people not that good at shooting

http://www.amazon.com/The-Second-Amendment-1-ebook/dp/B007A53RX0/ref=zg_bs_157321011_5