You "rights" conflicit with OUR rights.

rights not to be taken away . . .

Holmes wrote

"The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.'

Because there is a very explicit right to do both in the U.S. Constitution, and most state constitutions. Does my possession of firearms create a "clear and present danger" to somebody? Before you answer, think about what the phrase "clear and present danger" means and does not mean.

Last edited Sat Jun 9, 2012, 06:49 PM - Edit history (2)

and U.S. courts have been directed to use at least "intermediate scrutiny" to examine the constitutionality of gun control laws. Constitutional rights may be subject to time/place/manner restrictions which substantially advance a real, bonafide state interest. There's no legitimate state interest in protecting an imagined right to feel safe by ending the exercise of another enumerated right, and restrictions must fall flat if they're enacted on this basis. They must substantially protect the implicit right to be safe.

It's like Rachel Maddow said - our rights cannot be bartered with or taken away because they are rights.

So have a wonderful day while I go exploring in the wildness with my Kalashnikov.

of the definition of rights does he?
I think I'll go out to the desert today and take my AR-15 and my Valmet and do some target shooting today, it being such a beautiful day and while I'm at it, I'll take my CC gun, a Colt Delta Elite 10mm, and hone my shooting skills.
Have a good day and have fun shooting.

and you have to go through that process, correct? Restoration is not automatic - it could be denied.

thank you - I do plan on having a wonderful gun-free day - with my friends of similar thought

Are there any other Constitutional rights that can be "denied?" Speech, privacy, freedom from slavery, equality in suffrage, &c.?

Yes - other rights can be restricted, limited or denied.

I understand that scrutiny varies (and should vary) because of the natures of the two rights, but the fact is that you can't deny the right to free speech to "everything, except." You can only create specific exceptions for speech which is demonstrably and remarkably harmful. To remove the right on the basis that "all free speech is dangerous" is despotic and deserves a severe response. Same with keeping and bearing arms -- you can't remove the right for "everybody, except," or you're going down that same path of saying the civil rights are subject to whether the legislature thinks the right is a good idea or not. If the Constitution can be overridden without amendment, then the Bill of Rights belongs in a landfill.

who made the "all free speech is dangerous" or "everybody, except" arguments? Not I.

What argument would you make? What kind of gun laws do you consider ideal, within the restraint of 2A?

clearly said they can be limited (denied) in the interest of public safety. This was in response to those here who claim the right to safety does not not exist.

Of course it does and laws are in place in support of this.

I wouldn't call it a "right" per se, but a goal implicit in the states' obligations to uphold public safety. Since there's no act of government that can guarantee an individual's safety, it's more of an aspiration than a right for which you can sue.

I want you to show me where a "right to safety" is enumerated in ANY report, post, or legal document.
In other words, prove it.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

Last edited Sun Jun 10, 2012, 05:59 AM - Edit history (1)

Is the safety of the public protected or not?

given the record of CCW, you can't. Many gun laws have nothing to do with public safety.

most were for the safety of the elites and their Pinkerton thugs. Public safety was an excuse. Like NY's Sullivan law, sponsored by a corrupt politician and gangster Tim Sullivan. Sullivan did do some good progressive things, don't get me wrong.
Until the 1960s the South, former slave states, had the stricter gun laws. North Carolina still has a Jim Crow style handgun licensing scheme. Open carry was legal in California but not in Texas or Florida. Handguns were banned in South Carolina 1902-1965. That was not about public safety.

I see your making shit up as you go along again. Please point out where the "Right to Safety" is enumerated in the BoR.
I can't seem to find it. Is it a super secret right that you have to have a special decoder ring? Do you have to know the secret handshake before you can see it?
Lets us know so we can modify our behavior towards CCW around the likes of you.

as does the UN . . . and state constitutions . . . and our founding fathers

I'll ask again, where in the BoR does that right exist? And quite frankly, I don't much give a fuck what the U.N. says.

I read it all the time on your other site

Please enlighten me as to where it is so I can check it out. I won't call you a liar because thats against the rules so I'll leave it at that.

No they don't

not going to do that, besides how would you know I'm carrying a gun unless I tell you? You wouldn't know.

and construct your own personal gun-free zone?

rights are those? Please name just one or stop making outlandish claims, they don't belong here...try the lounge.

can join without becoming an NRA member. I dumped the NRA damned near 20 years ago because they've become a simple fund raising arm of the RNC.

Part of the package is that NRA members only are allowed to use the range.

I manage to maintain my status simply because I used to be well ranked in skeet shooting, they tend to overlook my heresy as long as I'm willing to maintain the course and teach the younguns'

Don't you ever get tired of making these stories up? You have such a vivid imagination that you should write a fiction book, after all, just about everything you say in this group is fiction.

You said: "Wasn't much diversity in the crowd or among dealers. There's not much diversity at a hip-hop concert or an Eastern Orthodox service, either. Some things just don't have as broad appeal as others."

__________________

Pretty much been my conclusion all along. Those mainly into guns are white folks who are afraid of minorities. Sure there are exceptions, but I think you nailed the gun culture's view and where they are coming from.


As to your last line -- that's right, no insurance underwriter is going to insure a meeting of right wing gun lovers if any of the yahoos are allowed to carry a loaded or concealed weapon. Why? I think the answer is obvious.


Guns are largely a right wing preoccupation, that you guys want us to allow to keep a few liberal gun owners happy. I don't think that is the best long-run approach.

You really ought to write a fiction book because you wouldn't know the truth about gun owners or gun shows if it hit you between the eyes.
Shit, does anybody in your state believe a word you say?

Hoyt (6,755 posts)
27. OK - I'll change my No vote. But, then, why not just go to

Outdoor group?..... and tic off the peaceful hikers, campers, runners, rock climbers, canoers. Bird watchers, etc., with gun toting topics.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117242069#post27

Been a couple of days now.
Why don't you man up and apologize?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

In recent years, at least in Dallas, they've clamped down on that nonsense. I actually bought my copy of The Turner Diaries at a gun show - not because I'm some closet racist with violent fantasies of mass murder, but because I wanted a peek into the minds of right-wing extremists in an attempt to find an antidote to their insanity.

The First Amendment cuts both ways. The National Alliance can publish it, and we Democrats can pick it apart and have a good laugh.

It's a recipe for disaster. Did you see the cops there too? They are usually hanging around scoping stuff out.

Not for fear of some "yahoo" shooting up the place because his marbles fell out, but because a gun show is a place where many firearms will be handled by many people. Gun shows are attended by people of every experience level, skill, and safety consciousness. Any time a loaded firearm is handled, there's a chance for human or mechanical error resulting in a discharge. Banning loaded guns by guests adds another layer of protection against the chance of an unfamiliar or incompetent operator inadvertently firing a gun in a crowded building.

And no, that doesn't mean that every building with lots of people in it would be correct to ban loaded guns -- a gun show is qualitatively different because it is an event where it is expected that (unloaded) firearms will be handled by unfamiliar people.

Hoyt (6,755 posts)
27. OK - I'll change my No vote. But, then, why not just go to

Outdoor group?..... and tic off the peaceful hikers, campers, runners, rock climbers, canoers. Bird watchers, etc., with gun toting topics.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117242069#post27

Been a couple of days now.
Why don't you man up and apologize?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

so far you've lied about changing your vote on another thread, all you do is come here an lie about gun owners, most of the time your "facts" are either wrong or pulled out of thin air and still wrong, you never pass up a chance to insult or post snarky little remarks.
I know that most of us just laugh or scratch our heads in amazement at the crap you post.
Tell us, how does it feel to be the laughingstock of this group?

"you never pass up a chance to insult or post snarky littly remarks"


Do you remember the following words? Do you know who posted these snarky little remarks?

"I see your making shit up as you go along again. Please point out where the "Right to Safety" is enumerated in the BoR.
I can't seem to find it. Is it a super secret right that you have to have a special decoder ring? Do you have to know the secret handshake before you can see it?"

"Lets us know so we can modify our behavior towards CCW around the likes of you. "

which is all you 2 seem to post here in the gungeon. What I can't figure out is if you 2 don't like guns so much, why are you here?

I'm still waiting for a link to the "other site" I supposedly have, please provide it or retract your false statement.

you have nothing. Your just like another poster here, make wild claims but don't back them up.

Ya know what? Never mind, your not worth it. Your just another anti gun poster in a long line of anti gun posters who come here and bitch and moan about guns and yet when asked what are you doing to restrict or repeal gun laws, you have no answer. At least I have the courage of my convictions to do something about it, like contributing to pro gun dem candidates, I lobby for pro gun laws and much much more.
Like I've asked you before but can't seem to get an answer, if you dislike firearms so much, why do you come here?

and your guns pose a risk to that.

I will share that I am an activist - heavily involved in political endorsements. In fact, I have spent the past two days in a joint group workshop working toward that end.

That is all I wish to share with you.

as witnessed by more and more states loosening their gun laws and allowing law abiding citizens to now carry firearms, Castle Doctrine, SYG laws.
So what does you side of the aisle have to show? Not much.
BTW, the vast majority of gun owners pose absolutely no threat to the public safety, if it did, there wouldn't be a massive shift to the loosening of gun laws.
Ya know, your side screwed up in 94 with the so called assault weapons ban, in the words of a famous WW2 Japanese Admiral, you awoke a sleeping giant.
It will never go back to pre-94 because we will never let it happen again.

Is that why you are on that particular side? to join the majority?

I'm on that side of the 2ND Amendment issue because I believe it, nothing to do with the majority.
This is exactly why your side is losing and losing badly, you fail to grasp how committed we are and how strong we are.
Like I said, We will never go back to pre-94, y'all had your time, now it's our time and we have the numbers on our side.
But, hey, good luck with trying to pass more gun control laws. I'll be laughing my ass off as your side fails and there is more hand wringing as witnessed by some of your fellow posters here.

there are those that enjoy the safety of a crowd

If you want to believe that I'm pro gun because I enjoy the safety of a crowd, go ahead, whatever floats your boat.
I have results on my side.

So how is your "crowd" doing on the gun control front? How many gun control laws has your "crowd" got passed?
Name me one significant gun control law thats been passed in the last, oh say, 5 years.

do I have that right?

If a Democratic candidate ran on this issue, you would actively seek his defeat.

I think I understand.


oops - forgot the link

http://www.heralddemocrat.com/sections/news/local/democrats-target-gun-laws-other-issues.html

that in no way I even came close to saying. Where did I ever say I would work against Dems if they opposed the 2ND amendment?
Why do you post bullshit innuendos about other DU'ers? Your dislike of gun owners has severely clouded your judgement.

"This is exactly why your side is losing and losing badly, you fail to grasp how committed we are and how strong we are.
Like I said, We will never go back to pre-94, y'all had your time, now it's our time and we have the numbers on our side.
But, hey, good luck with trying to pass more gun control laws. I'll be laughing my ass off as your side fails and there is more hand wringing as witnessed by some of your fellow posters here."

Would you work against those Dems who are trying to this legislation? Sure sounds like it . . . . "your side", "our side", "I'll be laughing my ass off as your side fails"

I never said ANYTHING about working against Dems who oppose the 2ND Amendment. Where I live, my Dem reps and legislatures support the 2ND Amendment.
Your side is the anti gun side, thats what I meant and you damn well know it, and I will be laughing my ass off as I observe your side becoming more and more irrelevant on the 2ND Amendment issue.

So, can you name 1 significant gun control law that has passed in the last 5 years?

then we are done here.

Don't you think you could make your argument in a more persuasive way?

It's very rare for somebody to remove their gun from its holster in these places, and in many places constitutes a criminal act by itself. At a gun show, there is a far greater likelihood that a carry weapon will be removed from its holster to be exhibited to other guests, compared to potential purchases, experimented with in new holsters, presented for examination, or lent to other prospective buyers. Non-shooters, young shooters, inexperienced shooters, and shooters with poor grasp of the Four Rules are all expected to handle firearms at a gun show. Removing loaded guns from the event significantly reduces the possibility that it might be handled carelessly by somebody who assumes that it is unloaded.

Simply put, the handling of guns by the general public is a normal occurrence at a gun show, whereas it is not a normal occurrence at a restaurant. That creates a unique situation where loaded guns present far more risk than usual, and virtually null benefit, as armed security is already provided by people who are not participating in the show.

with one of the complaints anti gunners voice here. That is they feel unsafe about people carrying concealed weapons around them. A person would have to be pretty paranoid in order to worry about such a thing. If I am standing in line next to someone waiting for movie tickets the last thing I am thinking about is "Gee I wonder if that guy has a gun".

It is almost like a form of bigotry. The anti gunner has formed an opinion about you without even knowing anything about you, based solely on the fact that you may or may not be carrying a gun.It has always amazed me that some people are willing to invest huge amounts of time and effort worrying about what others may be doing.

I have never wondered if someone next to me, or someone walking down the street is carrying concealed. I have been carrying so many years that it has become second nature to me and I don't even think about it anymore. I've never had anyone come up to me and ask if I was carrying a gun, probably because I know how to CC and I don't draw attention to myself.