...who decry concealed gun permits. What do they know, anyway?

That does not political appointees.

and most of the street cops I know support citizens being able to carry a weapon for protection.
The police are not responsible for your personal safety unless you're in our custody, we're only responsible for the general public's safety.
What that means that if you get in trouble because of some thug, unless there's a cop right there, you're on your own.

...as we tend to hang around like-thinking friends, my cop friends are anti-ccw. All cite the inability of the average citizen to use firearms, as well to know when to use them, and they agree with me that the way the West Was Won was when vigilante law became superceded by local sheriffs and federal marshalls taking care of the bad guys, and citizens were subject to laws limiting gun carrying in the towns.

But those are admittedly a small percentage of cops and chiefs. I just think the majority is wrong is in this case.

but that said, vigilantism is not the same as self defense. Most of the carry laws, other than the south, came about in the 1920s. Most of the time it was concealed carry. While open carry was and is legal in much of the west, it was and isn't customary. Most concealed carry in the 19th century was mostly in urban areas where there was a greater fear of street crime than Wyoming or Idaho where people generally felt safer. I am speaking of course of the average rancher, bank teller, school teacher and not the contract killers, gamblers, and other thugs romanticized by Hollywood.
Places like Tombstone, where the local town council passed a no carry ordinance, did exist but were not that common and not really needed.

The one where students are given brief marksmanship training under normal conditions (exposed holster, clear sight, appropriate clothing, standing draw) by instructors who have a vested interest in the student's non-competence, then tested in tactics under completely unfamiliar (and bizarre) conditions (concealed holsters, face masks, looong shirts, draw from seated position) by having a professional aggressor-trainer, aware of the armed defender's identity, burst into the room in one of the least likely encounters possible.

I was unable to drive a half-full tanker truck through a swamp in a rainstorm at midnight after being trained for 20 minutes to wash a Civic in a dry parking lot at noon. Truck drivers are living in a fantasy world.

*sigh* When SM has to dredge the barrel and find this old crap, we know it's sputtering down.

6!!!

Can you imagine any more comprehensive study than that?

If you round up that's a dozen people.

nt

gunner bull shit propaganda than to stop living in fantasy land where you are going to save the world from bad guys.
I don't want to be anywhere near a gun toting "enthusiast".

Feel free to avoid my neighbourhood.

Keep your neighborhood just stay out of mine.

Right ...

gun "enthusiast"

... shop in Walmart. You're not one of us?

Your elitism is showing.

if you live in LA or Orange County, "common sense" is anyone who gave enough to the previous sheriff's campaign. Some counties function as shall issue. NYC is Sean Hannity and Howard Stern.

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but LA and Orange had scandals.

add to that the potential gun nut thugs.

My, how the subject of guns brings out the authoritarian in some people...

illegally was a law abiding citizen until they shot someone.
The is nothing about carrying a gun that makes you the good guy. It's all in your head. Your fantasy about shooting the bad guy is just that, a fantasy.

pick up a gun or any other weapon. What are your qualifications as a self defense expert besides watching VPC videos on YouTube?

Do you even think about what you're saying?

I've dealt with hundreds of CC permit holders and not one of them ever fantasized about shooting anyone, not one of them, Where do you come up with this shit? Every CC permit holder I've dealt with have been even tempered, thoughtful, well mannered law abiding citizens, not the crazed gun nut who is just waiting to shoot the bad gun.

The safety device I carry only makes me the concerned guy.

Safety first, refuse to be a victim.

Last edited Wed Oct 17, 2012, 02:40 PM - Edit history (1)

gun nut thugs?
Let me ask you something, who do you think is responsible for your personal safety? Here's a hint, it ain't the police, unless you're in my custody.

... wouldn't be safe even IN your custody.

And no one on earth would blame you.

I treat people in my custody with respect and decency, I find that it usually calms down the detainee, although there will always be exceptions.

... I was raised around UK cops -- they know how to hit a bloke so the bruises don't show.

Carry it with pride and let your flag fly.

But in others places the commoners can still protect themselves. You had better hunker down for your own safety.

Note also that I live in CA, and carry daily.

If you're not living in either state already, you probably ARE

First of all, I want to know whether the shooter was told who was armed in the classroom.

If so, and it would appear that way from the video, then this is hardly a fair assessment. If someone is coming to target you specifically, you are at a huge, huge disadvantage even if you are carrying a firearm.

You'll also notice that the CCW holder is always conveniently placed on the front row.

But finally, everyone should realize that carrying a firearm is no guarantee of success in the face of violent crime. All it does is give you another option.

Every one of these students would have been equally dead if they had no firearm and no chance of resisting.

A chance is always better than no chance.

Was that while the gunman was focused on the CCW the rest of the students were able to escape.

First thing I noticed was a long Tee (not even a decent concealing garment, let alone the proper wear from which to remove a handgun.

I don't know about some folks here, but in that situation I would have hit the floor; not very heroic, but a good first step.

Weak sauce, weak tea, weak fuck-all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dateline_NBC#General_Motors_vs._NBC

Dude, you have no idea how to play for your side, do you?

In their dream world, they can actually stop us from carrying concealed weapons with bullshit CBS videos and posts on democratic underground. Keep on dreaming antigunnners!!!

Last edited Mon Oct 15, 2012, 04:00 PM - Edit history (2)

Since that time I've taken several advanced drawing, moving, and shooting defensive pistol courses and courses on firearms and the law in my State taught by law enforcement and ex military instructors.

I must say that the video above smacks of brain washing. Concealed carry, at least for me, is a very, very serious responsibility. Not only are you held personally liable anytime you draw the firearm but you are responsible for each round fired. They teach that you should consider a lawyer attached to each and every round that you fire. And, if you do fire a gun you will find yourself in front of a judge and that means at least $5,000 for a lawyer.

Next, one is compelled to become incredibly proficient with the firearm and practice under stress situations. In stress situations you do not have time to line up both front and rear sights so you have to perfect your trigger skills so when you use the barrel to aim you don't jerk the gun with your trigger pull and take it off target. You also learn the the best course of action is to try to retreat first, if you safely can.

Based on what I've learned in the past twelve months, my impression is the concealed carry holder in most States is vetted (to get their license) at the same level as a Police Officer. That means that the concealed carry holder passes the same pre-license checks as a police officer. The concealed carry holder, though, does not have to pass a graded shooting test each year. However, there is a good chance that many concealed carry holders practice with their firearms more than most Police Officers - many Police Officers take the job for reason other than firearms. And, the concealed carry holder is personally liable for anything they do with a firearm whereas Police Officers have indemnity from lawsuits.

What would happen if that video had several real concealed carry holders in the audience. That bad guy would be laid out on the floor. No doubt in my mind.

Though not for the reasons the anti-gun people do. It serves as a reminder that you must carry everywhere and practice, practice, practice! You should practice drawing from concealment, taking cover, and taking raipid aimed shots after drawing. He is absoutly right, it is a perishable skill and must be constantly worked on.

the planned outcome?

The big problem with the scenario is that the shooter(s) know where the armed student is sitting and target him/her immediately after shooting the teacher.

Old video. It is just as biased now as it was when it was first broadcast on TV.

Cuz this totally represents reality, yup.

if this is the best argument the grabbers can come up with that's proof that CCW is overwhelmingly a good thing.

I wouldn't believe Dianne Sawyer if she told me she was anti gun and worked for ABC

Keep practicing

That video is two years old and what's happened since then.

Oh yeah, Wisconsin and Iowa became shall-issue CCW states, and the Colorado Supreme Court affirmed campus carry.

Your side can't even make up shit (like in the ABC video) to convince people to support you.

edited to add: this type of thing has happened before. Dateline NBC rigged pickup trucks to explode upon impact during accidents due to the poor design of fuel tanks. Dateline NBC producers had rigged the truck’s fuel tank with remotely controlled model rocket engines to initiate the explosion. Google "Waiting to Explode".

They know they screwed up and are hoping to forget about it but there is always the few who will cling to any lie to support their cause.

We only see what the ABC bias journalist wanted us to see. They hold the cards, they make the edits, they make the percieved truth.