there would be a lot more murders being classified as justifiable homicide, after all, I heard it here first.
On a serious note, this just proves that the police and prosecutors know what is and what isn't a justifiable homicide.
SYG laws are a non issue.

and it's, IMHO, not a case of SYG, but I'll let FL. iron that out, in Missouri we don't have a SYG law yet, just a Castle Doctrine law, however, if MO ever institutes an SYG law, I will have no problem with it.
I'm not your typical cop, am I?
We have a pretty good rapport with the DA's office, of course there will be the occasional spat, but far and away, we get along great.
I used to watch the show Law & Order, what utter bullshit, rarely are the cops and prosecutors at odds like the show portrays.

And I don't have much argument with you, except for SYG, which I consider a little loose. In general, I think most PDs and DAs have a good rapport. The problems often occur with murder cases, especially high profile cases, when the cops think they have enough evidence, but the DA wants more. I can understand both sides, frustrated cops on one side, and career bent DAs who hate to lose, on the other.
The Jablin case in Virginia is a classic example, but it all worked out in the end. I recently read the excellent Kathryn Casey book "Die, My Love" which details the investigation, and highlights the frustration.

I'll look it up on Amazon, if you say it's a good read, then I'll buy it.

Definitive conclusions have not been arrived at yet, but so far it looks as though SYG laws have resulted in a 2 to 3 fold increase in "justifiable homicides". Unfortunately, most of the witnesses, who might contradict the shooters' contention of justification, are dead.
Here is one link on the subject, but there are lots more if you Google "SYG justifiable homicide increase"
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303404704577311873214574462.html

Here's another SYG poster boy
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/03/texas-justifiable-homicides-reportedly-rise-with-castle-doctrine/

Point is, there are a lot of morons out there who think SYG is a license to kill. It is not meant to be, but if only the shooter survives and there are no other witnesses, it ends up being exactly that. So, if you are going to piss someone off, make sure you have witnesses. It won't keep you alive, but your stat will go into a different column.

according to one of our leading gun control advocates, should get you banned or suspended. That statistic alone is actually meaningless.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=84851

The way the law is written is wrong. Statistics are irrelevant. Dead victims can't defend themselves.

I forgot the
I didn't say I agreed with the idea.

Thought maybe one of the Fla natives had stolen your computer or something.

just colonists from Queens and Long Island. I think the secret behind New York being dependably blue for the past 40 years is because all of their Republicans moved here. At least some of them drive Priuses. It has become the 98 Olds of 21st century. Me, I'm holding out for a Chevy Volt. Now if I can convert a Willeys CJ series to electric and get the same range as a Nissan Leaf or Tesla...........................

The article re Texas seems to show the limits of using syg, "even" in that state.

Interesting, that "minorities" seem to be using syg defense pleas frequently, esp. where the attacker is also a "minority."

That's the entire country? Over three hundred million people? Didn't I see somewhere else There were about 14,000 murders?

This is a pretty safe place to be.

5% is 50 murders per 100,000.

Not sure that is all firearms though.

5% is 5 per 100.

50 murders per 100,000 is 0.05%

Justifiable homicides is given as an actual number because 500 per 300,000,000 is .167 per 100,000 or 0.000167%

the murder rate trend is somewhat encouraging. However your claim of justifiable homicide levels remaining steady contradicts the numbers you present.

An increase of 28 justifiable homicides from 2007 (257) to 2010 (285) represents a 10% increase using the 2010 number as the baseline. If you use the 2007 number which is probably the correct thing to do it's an 11% increase.

Based only on the 2011 (260) number alone one could make the claim that justifiable homicide rates are holding steady although it is a 1% increase.

2010 was a bump.


The average for the 5 data points is 266.6, and only one data point was above that. Three were noticeably below, and one was pretty much right on the average.

Hmmmm.... Got stats for that?

He won't like the numbers, and will likely fall back on the word "Seem", wherein the media reports mass shootings more frequently, which is instead an increase in coverage with an overall decrease in mass shootings.

That is, if you get any response at all.

See my post above.

However, the "justifiable homicide" bar appears to be getting lower and lower, especially in states like Florida and Oklahoma.

Regarding the murder rate, factors to be considered are:
1. Response times by paramedics and ER room efficiency. The numbers only relate to those who died.
2. Community policing in major urban areas and resulting drop in gang violence.
3. Evolution of the criminal mind in the age of computers and technology, resulting in fewer criminals resorting to violence.

At the end of the day, the Justifiable Homicide rate in the US is about equal to the Total Homicide rate in the UK. So, we have a ways to go yet.

In fact, budget contraints on police and other emergency responders might in fact argue that the quality of emergency care has declined slightly.

2. Again, a huge chunk of murder is gang-related. Legalize drugs, and those murders (gun and otherwise) vanish into the ether almost immediately.



The justifiable homicide rate would be about 0.86 per million people per year. The UK homicide rate is 12 per million per year. I think you're thinking total gun deaths, maybe?

58 Murders a year by Firearms in Britain, 8,775 in US
http://www.juancole.com/2012/07/58-murders-a-year-by-firearms-in-britain-8775-in-us.html

Those numbers equal approximately slightly less than 1 per million in the UK (population ca. 60 million)
Slightly less than 30 per million in the US (population ca. 300 million)

Another interesting trend in the UK. Overall homicides are down 50% since 2001.
551 homicides (includes murder, manslaughter and infanticide) were reported in 2011/12, a considerable drop on the previous year's total of 638. Homicides are now down to around half of the figure for 2001/2.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/14/crime-statistics-england-wales

I agree that most murders in the US are gang related and ending the ridiculous so-called "war on drugs" is an essential first step to a less violent society.

...irritating in both directions but the Spring change is more annoying than the Autumn.

Autumn has the edge though, if there is a good party happening Saturday night.

I just find the idea annoying. AZ has the right idea.

Kids going to school in daylight, early morning joggers, summer and early fall harvests. Lots of energy savings. I like to get up early and check the news, weather. If it's still dark my batteries are probably pretty low and I have to wait for the sun to charge them a little. If I'm in a harbor where there are other boats around I can't run a generator before 8.00am, which is when I now get enough sun, thanks to the shift.

It's even worse for this part of the country. New England should be on Atlantic time, not Eastern time. But because we're always an hour "behind" as the sun goes, it gets dark early, even with DST.

At this point, we're on "standard" time a minority of the time. Put New England on Atlantic time and toss DST in the trash bin. It will probably help with the horrible traffic on I-95 in the morning and evening, too.

Or just move all the time zones east one zone and call it done. Permanent DST. Fine.

Think about it. Schools and all businesses would have to change their hours. Street lighting would cost more. But I agree that some places might be better shifting zones. Newfoundland and the southeastern tip of Labrador have a half hour difference (ahead of Atlantic), which is pretty bizarre.

...Newfie jokes up there.

That's just a sick idea. We should switch to GMT bag the idea of Daylight time and just adjust.
So now that we're this far off topic, how soon is it that the US will be all metric? They told me what year in grade school but that was obviously BS.

We could pass a law banning certain AR-15s for no measurable effects but adopting a logical system of measures? That's too controversial.

Most weeks I work from home. I'm basically a cave dweller and I like it better when it's dark.
When I win the lottery, I'm moving here: < http://www.silohome.com/ >.

The idea of a resilient blast door appeals to me.
Stay safe.

Looks like there are some lots left. Ideal for preppers who want to dig in. Maybe we'll check it out on next year's road trip, if I can persuade my better half to journey that far north again.

I want the main area, cabin and silo.

BTW, what type/brand of panels do you have?

They charge a bank of 6x6 volt golf cart batteries (Trojan 125s).

How about Titan silos? Wait, Kansas was over rated.

If your interested, I'm sure you can find something to suit your tastes.

< http://www.missilebases.com/properties >

just the burden of proof. BTW, what is with the quotation marks? justifiable homicide is a legal concept.

Prosecutors have to walk the fine line of deciding to prosecute or classify killings as justifiable. The Martin case is a classic example and I'd wager there would never have been a prosecution had there been no public outcry. Prosecutors don't like to lose.

I do think if Martin were some kid from the trailer park, regardless of race, there would be no outcry. If Martin were white, Mike Savage and Glen Beck would be making a big deal out of Zimmerman being Hispanic, and questioning his citizenship and self defense claim.
Remember the lady that got 20 years for firing a warning shot at her asshole abusive husband? Same prosecutor.
Regardless of what the truth turns out to be, ideologues will ignore the reality and scream "good old boy" or "political correctness" depending on the verdict.

The research is not complete, but the picture doesn't look good.
http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2012/mar/26/christopher-l-smith/sen-chris-smith-claimed-deaths-due-self-defense-fl/

I am confused here.

If SYG laws make for increased numbers of self-defense shootings, why are the numbers for the last 5 years stable?

The Florida civilian (non-cop) stats are stable at 12/yr pre-SYG and 42/yr post-SYG. The levels are stable but they differ by 250%.

The problem here is that the numbers are so small that talking about percentage changes is misleading.

Interestingly, the stats for the Florida cops reflects similar stability and similar levels increase, while the law did not change for them.

...that silly pursuit of happiness thing. Ya think.

The FBI figures are national.
The number in Texas went from 32 in2006 to 48 in 2010. That's a 50% increase.
27 were in Houston, which has become a veritable killing zone. You would probably love it. You can shoot folk there for stealing candy bars.
In Florida it is just as bad if not worse http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/stand-your-ground-laws-coincide-with-jump-in-justifiable-homicide-cases/2012/04/07/gIQAS2v51S_story.html

Point is, the numbers may seem relatively stable, but they are increasing in states like TX and FL and will probably do the same in the other 28 states that have been manipulated by ALEC and the gun lobby.
Meanwhile, the blue states are getting smarter. What a surprise.

They had it for over fifty years. As for the increase, IIRC, the same increase is also among cops. That makes any change in the law irrelevant. In all likelihood, what the change shows is there were just as many self defense killings earlier years, just that it was easier to send innocent, of murder, people to prison since the accused had to prove their innocence of a crime. There is also the probability that the rate is actually the same, keeping pace with population change.
The statistic by itself is meaningless because any ideologue can interpret anyway they want.
Of course, you don't actually believe people do or should defend themselves outside the home.
BTW, "blue" and "red" state only refers to how they voted for president in the last election, which may or may not have anything to do with their internal politics. The same with counties within the state. Out of California's 58 counties, less than half were blue in 2004. Wyoming had one, and two in 28. Wyoming also had three red counties, the remaining 18 counties were light purple. I am surprised that you would actually fall for the simplistic and superficial nonsense is usually reserved for lazy and dimwitted, and overpaid, pundits.

Where did you get that idea? I believe people should defend themselves and be able to defend themselves wherever they are. I do not believe people should be able to kill others for stealing candy bars and other junk.

Last edited Tue Nov 6, 2012, 01:46 AM - Edit history (1)

but we agree that is a bad idea. I think every state should adopt Wyoming's Castle Doctrine,

Here's an interesting piece about a Texas A&M study
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/study-guns-dont-kill-people-stand-your-ground-laws-do/

a couple of economists that got some of the states wrong, and couldn't tell the difference between SYG and castle doctrine. Studies like these may show a correlation, but can't show cause. That is what makes them kind of hokey.
Besides, If you are going to knock Kleck and Wright for being in Florida public schools, don't show up with a Texas public school (Yet Harvard is OK, even though Bush was accepted and he could not get in U of T or any Florida school because his grades sucked. While private Ivy league are fine schools, the idea of affirmative action for legaceies and give them unearned and not worked for degrees, like Bush, are over rated.)

...for defending themselves and their property.

...and their parrots. SYG laws do not generally increase homicide rates despite what is touted by some so-called studies. No Wild West it seems. Nothing suggesting that gun ownership and expanded CCW is influencing these tends but it certainly not hurting anything except wilting a few delicate flowers.

If it weren't for the increase in guns and SYG laws and the like crime would have dropped to nil by now because of . . . I dunno . . . magic.

But all those guns prevented the natural drop in crime.

Because I said so.

the fears of the "wild, wild west."

And nothing much happened.

Wow, with my ignore list I'm seeing 16.

Am I missing anything good?

But in case you don't, the answer is no, you're missing nothing that might concern you. Atypical is taking care of business for you in typically good form.