it's up to the church what they wanna do. They could do pole-dancing lessons on the weekend for all the difference it makes to me.

Religion is the biggest scam ever invented by humans. It started when the first human realized he can get a bunch of dopes to believe anything he said by pretending he had special powers from above.

if you merely sit on your ass.

God helps those who help themselves....

(P.S. I'm agnostic leaning towards atheist. It is a faith of great comfort in my increasing years....)

I don't believe that any one religion has a monopoly on truth.

Understanding who or what God is is somewhat like an ant understanding the human who sprays his colony with ant killer.

Many people believe God is an old man who sits on a cloud.



If there is a God, I'm sure he is somewhat insulted by this view.

Or an old woman ...

he doesn't it is due to free will? Nice gimmick.

Churches offering concealed carry training

Feel better about yourself for critiquing others now?

Do you have a CCW?

God is all powerful but they need a gun.

... so confident that they have to take every opportunity to remind everyone how smart and savvy they are, compared to everyone else. Kind of a Catch 22 for people like you.

And still, nothing you have to say is even vaguely relevant to the conversation in this thread. Which is not about God protecting anyone in church.

But feel free to keep stroking your ego in public. I'm sure it makes you feel really good.

So is the rest of society. Churches are not for the perfect, they are for the sinners.

What's feeble about it? What is feeble is mocking people for their religious beliefs.

Any particular church gets to state what they believe, not you. If they are consistent with their beliefs, as stated by them, then they are not hypocrites.

Since you do not go to those particular churches, then you are not qualified to define their beliefs.

You don't get to define their beliefs. They get to believe different that what you dictate without being hypocrites. They become hypocrites only if their actions differ from their stated beliefs.

Likely, they believe that God gave them brains to have the tools needed to deal with violent people.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=88877

The Bible, in many places, warns Christians that the World will hate them and persecute them, even to death. Foxes' Book of Martyrs lists many examples of such.

You are trying to tell people what they believe and then judging them when their beliefs aren't what you assign them to be.

The Christian Bible states that if one isn't armed they should sell their coat if necessary to arm them selves

You don't go to any church so what do you care if they offer concealed carry classes?

Like most churches.

then you are sadly mistaken.

I will grant that a higher percentage of Republicans own firearms than Democrats and it could be fairly argued that more White Republicans attend church on a regular basis than White Democrats. (Black Democrats are even more religious than White Republicans.)

In Florida which is a "gun friendly" state, gun ownership is very common. Florida does not require firearms to be registered, owners to be licensed or any approval of local officials to purchase firearms. Honest citizens of any race find acquiring a firearm a simple process. Florida is a "shall issue" state so consequently local officials can not discriminate on who can obtain a concealed carry permit so honest minority citizens who get the training and meet the requirements can get a carry permit for a very reasonable fee. Over 800,000 resident Floridians have concealed weapons permits.

In more "gun unfriendly" states and cities, numerous hurdles are placed in the way of any citizen who wishes to own or carry a firearm. Consequently it is far more difficult and often very expensive for a member of a minority community to obtain a firearm or a carry permit. A high percentage of Democrats live in such areas and this in itself might explain why a higher percentage of Republicans own firearms than Democrats. Change the gun laws in those states and cities to make them similar to those in Florida and over a fairly short period of time, I will predict that gun ownership would become common and many citizens would obtain carry permits. In ten to fifteen years I would predict that the percentage of Democrats who own firearms would be very close to the percentage of Republicans if not higher. (Realistically the politicians in the "gun unfriendly" areas of our nation will continue to make gun ownership difficult so my scenario will probably never happen.)

I have lived in Florida for over 40 years and have enjoyed target shooting handguns during that period. I have introduced a fair number of people to the sport of target shooting during those years and a good percentage were Black or Hispanic. Surprisingly a higher percentage of the minorities that I brought to the sport went on to get concealed carry permits. I don't believe that many of these individuals were Republicans although I might be mistaken as in some cases I never had any conversations dealing with politics.

I will politely suggest that it is somewhat foolish to stereotype any large group of people. There are an estimated 80,000,000 gun owners in our nation. Some are Democrats or Republicans and some are Independents. Some are very religious but many are atheists or agnostics. Some are rich and some are poor. Some live in rural areas and some in large urban areas. Some belong to a militia and fear the UN or Obama plans to take away their firearms but most feel this is paranoid and laughable.

Some fear the end of the world or civilization is near and have spent enormous amounts of money preparing for the end of civilization as we know it. Such people usually are well armed. Most gun owners might at the best have a few days or a couple of weeks of food stored in their homes in case of an emergency.

Some gun owners are poorly educated but a high percentage have college degrees and many hold professional jobs. Some gun owners are criminals or suffer from serious mental issues but most are honest responsible citizens.

If I misinterpreted your comment, I apologize. I just have a personal dislike against stereotyping any large group of people.

I obviously am a gun owner and I do have a concealed weapons permit. While don't go to church on a regular basis, I consider myself a "Christian." However many "Christians" that I know have told me to my face that my destiny is to burn in Hell. I usually politely remind them that judging others is above their pay grade.

Six years ago my daughter's marriage was conducted by a lesbian minister. This lady truly impressed me and if I had lived in her area, I definitely would have attended her services.

Obviously not all churches are "rightwing." You may realize this as in your post you stated:

I have gun owners and hunters in my family and some actually go to church. They are well trained, in some cases expert marksmen, and in most cases ex military. They also keep their guns hidden and locked away. They do not carry them around with them . They don't take pictures of themselves holding their guns, they don't hang them on their walls, and they don't take their guns to church or on dates.

Only cowards feel the need to carry guns around and how "faithful" can you be if you need a gun to feel safe in church. The hypocrisy is hilarious.

Wouldn't wearing a seatbelt prove that a Christian believes God can't protect her in an accident? Shouldn't Christians save money on fire alarms and extinguishers?

Should a Christian look both ways before crossing the street? Why not simply depend on God?

How about working to earn money, or going to the store to buy food and clothes? If God is truly taking care of them, shouldn't they lie down and wait for clothes, food, security, transportation and everything else they need to be delivered to them by angels?

Christians have a saying: "The Lord helps those who help themselves." Has it occurred to you that--as pointed out above--they know their own beliefs better than you do?

How about old folks who can't fight off thugs? Do you honestly expect a senior citizen to exchange punches with a violent criminal who wants their wallet and keys to their car?

Do you expect anyone to fight against a knife armed criminal with just their bare hands?

Or do you believe that violent crime doesn't happen to "good" people and that being unarmed will be a magical shield against crime?

To make assumptions about all gun owners or form stereotypes that broadly paint all gun owners in a negative light is foolish.

I am a gun owner and I do not regularly attend church although I study the Bible on a daily basis. It is a fascinating book filled with many stories which bear a close resemblance to the mythology of other religions. I have read the entire Bible in several different versions at least four or five times. Many Christians have never read this book once. I have faith that a God does exist but I believe that many religions have a partial picture of this entity or force and no religion is entirely right. I do not believe that this God places a protective force field around all churches or those who sincerely believe in him although in some cases he may. Since I am not a very photogenic individual I avoid having pictures taken of me with or without firearms. I sometimes compare myself to a B52 bomber which is nicknamed the BUFF by those who work on it. BUFF stands for Big Ugly Fat Fellow (or F**K*r).

Like some members of your family, I have served in the U. S. military although never in combat. I am considered to be a expert marksman with a variety of handguns. My handguns, loaded or unloaded, are always locked in safes. I have an old bolt action Swedish Mauser hanging in my living room but the ammo is locked in a safe. I also have a 12 gauge double barreled coach gun unloaded and hidden in my bedroom but I can open the safe where the ammo is secured and load this weapon very quickly.

Over the years I have lived in some dangerous areas. I have some martial arts training but realistically even a martial arts expert can find stopping an attack from an individual armed with a knife or a gun extremely challenging. If an unarmed individual is attacked by an individual who is skillful with a knife, he can expect to get cut -- perhaps seriously.

To view the injury go to the link. It is indeed rather graphic.

My martial arts training taught me that it is extremely difficult to disarm a man with a gun if he has the commonsense to be well beyond your reach.

You state:



People who have concealed carry permits are often accused by those who do not like honest citizens carrying firearms in public as being cowards or scared to leave their houses without a couple of guns.

Since I live in Florida and enjoy the shooting sports I know a fairly large number of people who have concealed weapons permits. Over 800,000 resident Floridians have such permits so if you are a Floridian there is an excellent chance that your neighbor, your co-worker, your boss or his boss, your accountant, your preacher or your doctor might have a carry permit.

While I personally have never had to use a firearm for self defense either at home or on the street I know several people who have successfully stopped attacks by armed individuals. Not one shot was fired in any of these cases. The attacker broke off the confrontation and withdrew when he realized his victim was armed.

I will describe these incidents.

On a chilly Sunday winter morning in downtown Tampa, two Hispanic co-workers of mine were using magnetic detectors to check for valuable items in a lot where a building had just been torn down. A guy walked up to them, drew a large knife and demanded their wallets. One of my co-workers pulled his jacket to the side to reveal the .45 auto he legally carried in a shoulder holster. The attacker turned and walked off muttering to himself. My co-worker held a black belt in karate for many years but chose to merely display his firearm rather then engage in a fight that might end in preventable injury. Both of my co-workers found the incident somewhat humorous. They did contact the police but the attacker was never apprehended. All ended well as they did find a very valuable ring and several old coins.

Another co-worker was traveling to work late at night as he worked with me on the graveyard shift. He did something that caused road rage in another driver. They both arrived at a stop light and the angry individual left his vehicle and walked up to my co-workers driver's window with a tire iron in his hand. My friend who had a carry permit drew his semi-auto handgun from his glove box and held it in his hand on his steering wheel. The angry person noticed the weapon and returned to his vehicle. My friend stated that if he would have had the opportunity, he would have simply drove off even if he would have had to run the red light. Unfortunately he was blocked in traffic with cars in front of him and beside him and a deep ditch on the passenger's side of his car. While the incident shook my friend up, he was glad it ended peacefully.

One of my friends who often shot at the range with me was an immigrant from England who had became an American citizen. He ran a locksmith service and was on call during the late night hours. He got a call from an individual on the south side of St. Petersburg. His customer wanted my friend to open the trunk of a car. After he accomplished the task he turned to the customer and found himself facing a knife. The customer demanded that my friend give up his wallet. My friend drew his legally concealed snub nosed S&W revolver and stuck it up the attacker's nose. He got paid for opening the trunk but didn't bother to give the customer his change. He did consider shooting his attacker but wisely realized that there were a number of witnesses who might have told the police a false story. My friend had served in the British military and had combat experience. He also had come from a circus family and had been a tight rope walker in his youth.

Are these people cowards because they choose to legally carry a firearm in public? I also know a number of police officers who have retired after 20 years on the force and they have carry permits and carry on a regular basis. I also know combat veterans who served in the Normandy invasion in WWII, Korea, Vietnam or our recent actions in Iraq or Afghanistan. Some have concealed weapons permits. Are they cowards in your view?

One night on my way to work on the graveyard shift I stopped in a Walgreens liquor store to buy a pack of cigars. Two young customers in the store set off my situational alarm. Both seemed unusually nervousness and one was rapidly walking up and down the aisles without appearing to be looking for anything. The one who was at the counter asked me if I wished to check out before him. I politely refused and moved back several feet nearer to some cover if necessary.

I placed my right hand on my S&W revolver which I carry in my pocket and simply observed details about the two other customers such as their age, height and dress. The customer at the counter said, "Damn, I forgot my wallet. I must have left it in my car." He walked out and seemed somewhat surprised when he returned several minutes later and found I was still waiting and watching with my hand in my pocket. He finally paid and both of these somewhat suspicious characters left the store and drove off. I then paid for my cigars and talked for a couple of minutes with the clerk. We often exchanged pleasantries as I usually stopped at this store on my way to work. I did notice that the clerk seemed relieved that I had been present as he was even more friendly than normal but I never mentioned the two customers nor the fact that I was armed.

Of course this situation might have been totally harmless but it is extremely rare for my personal radar to alert me so strongly. Had the guy at the counter pulled a weapon and robbed the clerk, I would have simply observed and not intervened. Pulling my own weapon could have escalated the situation and a simple robbery might have turned very violent. If however the robber would have turned aggressive and shot the clerk or looked like he was about to, I would have tried to use my own weapon to stop his attack.

I didn't leave the store because had my suspicions been right and a robbery occurred that resulted in the injury or death of this clerk who was merely a causal acquaintance, I would have had a hard time living with myself. Had I been unarmed I would have also strayed and watched and attempted to intervene if truly necessary. This would have make me a fool rather than a coward or a hero.

I have absolutely no desire to ever be a hero. I am not a cop or a vigilante. If I find myself in an argument that has the potential to escalate into a violent confrontation, I am more than willing to simply walk away even when it makes me look like a coward to others. I am a very peaceful person by nature but I am willing to fight if truly necessary. Sometimes I have qualified as a fool but maybe I have been lucky or perhaps a superior being was watching out for me.

Years ago my wife woke me up in the middle of the afternoon which was my night time as I worked the graveyard shift for over 30 years. She told me that some young men had broken into our neighbor's house across the street and were stealing his firearms. I pulled on a pair of shorts and walked to the living room window. I witnessed a guy handing a rifle from inside the house to another individual who carried it to the neighbor's carport.

I told my wife to call the police and did a very stupid thing. I decided to leave my home and I raced across the street pulling a "Geronimo" which means I was yelling and cursing as loud as I could. A neighbor five house from mine heard the commotion and looked outside of her home. She saw two young men running down the street.

There was a total of four guys robbing the house and the neighbor's teenaged daughter was the brains behind the heist. I was trying my best to catch at least one robber but when I ran into the carport of the teenager girl's house I hit an oil slick left by an old Volkswagen Beetle. I slipped and landed on my ass right beside a pile of firearms, archery equipment and some swords and knives. I figured that was a good place to stay and waited for the police to arrive.

Three of the male robbers were juveniles in their late teens. One was in his twenties and eventually was caught and spent a year in prison. All four had criminal records and the cops immediately knew who they were when they arrived on the scene.

The cops didn't feel I was a hero, nor did my sensi in my martial arts class. We all agreed that I did acted in a very foolish manner on that day.

One of the police officers showed me one of my neighbor's handguns, a Colt .45 auto. A round was stovepiped in the ejection port of the weapon. The officer said, "It looks like one of the robbers tried to load this handgun but didn't pull the slide back all the way. You may have been damn lucky that you didn't get shot. In the future call us and wait."

I had a loaded .357 magnum in my bedroom but I wisely decided to leave it behind when I charged from my house. Had I shot one of the robbers, I might have faced charges as I was definitely not acting in self defense.

I did get a really good steak dinner because of the situation. My neighbor who owned the firearms greatly appreciated the fact that I had stopped their theft.

But if you still feel that those who legally carry firearms are all cowards that's perfectly alright with me. Your opinions and the opinions of others are largely irrelevant to me. However since I am retired, I do enjoy a good discussion or a polite disagreement. It makes a day pass a little more quickly and helps to keep my mind active.

Safety first...

That is really funny.

After all when Simon Peter cut off the ear of the high priest's servant with his sword Jesus said:

You know, just for the symmetry of the thing.

Now Smackwater Jack, he bought a shotgun
'Cause he was in the mood for a little confrontation
He just let it all hang loose
He didn't think about the noose
He couldn't take no more abuse
So he shot down the congregation

You can't talk to a man
With a shotgun in his hand
Shotgun

Now Big Jim the chief stood for law and order
He called for the guard to come and surround the border
Now from his bulldog mouth
As he led the posse south
Came the cry, we got to ride
Clean up the streets for our wives and our daughters

You can't talk to a man
When he don't want to understand
No, no, no, no, no, no

The account of the capture wasn't in the papers
But you know, they hanged ole Smack right then instead of later
You know the people were quite pleased
'Cause the outlaw had been seized
And on the whole, it was a very good year
For the undertaker

You know, you know, you can't talk to a man
With a shotgun in his hand
Shotgun in his hand

Smackwater Jack, yeah
Smackwater Jack bought a shotgun
Yeah, Smackwater Jack bought a shotgun
Smackwater Jack, yeah
Smackwater Jack, yeah

Talkin' about Smackwater Jack, yeah
Talkin' about Smackwater Jack, oh
Talkin' about Jack and his shotgun,
Talkin' about Smack, talkin' about Jack
Smackwater Jack, yeah

That's why I posted old Smack Water Jack. You must have a ready reference for any occasion. Do you get that from some gunner web site or something?

I know you disapprove of facts and evidence, but this sort of denial is not at all healthy.

Did they post an unfactual article? Are they a "gunner web site"?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117280286#

That's the one where you claimed a shooter was law-abiding and I and others posted the shooter's lengthy prior criminal record. We proved that you were making stuff up. We never heard from you again in that thread.

If you disapprove of prjudicial facts and evidence than you should also disapprove of your own making stuff up.

Between "prejudicial facts" and lying through your teeth.

One is what you do and the other is what he does.

It's my hobby. I also enjoy target shooting handguns and I have a concealed weapons permit. Obviously articles about firearms and their use for self defense hold more interest for me than for most people. While I am aging, I still have a decent memory.

Many people have a considerable interest in actors or actresses and their adventures. While I enjoy watching a skilled performer in an interesting movie, I have absolutely no curiosity in who they currently date or their off screen antics and adventures. People differ and that's what makes us interesting.

Couple my interest in the subject of the legitimate use of weapons for self defense and modern technology and it took me less than 10 seconds to find the story courtesy of Google.

God provided me many safety devices to choose from. It would be a sin to disappoint him/her by not going prepared to defend his temple, my wife or children.

Offer SWIMMING LESSONS FOR KIDS or something?

And the shooting range is behind it. Really pisses off the guy who lives next door: his property value has dropped, the noise is awful, and the church mocks him via their sign out front. A load of swine.