Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumFair way to remove mental health disqualification
Last edited Wed Nov 28, 2012, 10:56 PM - Edit history (3)
Maryland is reexamining our gun laws regarding mental illness, with a focus on whether we need to adjust our laws to better balance RKBA with the need to protect public safety. One of the big issues that's come up is what the process should be for removing a mental health disqualification for somebody who has been healed, or is otherwise not dangerous.
For background, § 5-205 of the Public Safety Article states that:
(1) suffers from a mental disorder as defined in § 10-101(f)(2) of the Health-General Article and has a history of violent behavior against the person or another; or
(2) has been confined for more than 30 consecutive days in a facility as defined in § 10-101 of the Health-General Article."
and § 5-133 of the Public Safety Article states that:
(6) suffers from a mental disorder as defined in § 10-101(f)(2) of the Health - General Article and has a history of violent behavior against the person or another, unless the person has a physician's certificate that the person is capable of possessing a regulated firearm without undue danger to the person or to another;
(7) has been confined for more than 30 consecutive days to a facility as defined in § 10-101 of the Health - General Article, unless the person has a physician's certificate that the person is capable of possessing a regulated firearm without undue danger to the person or to another;"
It's important to create legal barriers to gun ownership for those people who suffer dangerous mental illness, but what do you do with a person who has undergone successful treatment and overcome a disqualifying condition? The present scheme has the great virtue of having an positive, objective (in terms of the state's action) means of restoring the right, but the severe weakness of relying on a certification that very few, if any, doctors will be willing to make. A doctor may be subject to civil liability if he makes a certification that later proves unsupportable, and it is extremely expensive and time-consuming for a patient to meet with a doctor as many times as it would conceivably take to convince them of his soundness of mind. Even if he did, the doctor suffers no penalty for refusing to make such a certification, and his reward is legal risk if he does. Removing civil liability is hardly an answer, since that invites abuse. (Note the many, many licensed physicians who will accept money to issue licenses to violate federal drug laws on the basis of "I had a headache, like, two years ago."
I favor the approach used in North Carolina, Arizona, Iowa, Washington, and probably several other states: Basically, a disqualified person can request a hearing for the removal of the disqualification, and he can introduce a much wider selection of evidence to support his petition. Things like compliance with treatment, work and family history, and input from psychiatric professionals can be presented without creating a liability issue. This is all presented to the judge/panel, which then makes a decision on whether to restore the petitioner's gun rights. It's subjective, but it makes it easier for the petitioner to bring evidence to the table.
That's my favorite choice, but I'd like to hear from fellow DUers. What's wrong with this plan? What's right with it? What other choices are there?
SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Hells Liberal
(88 posts)Anyone who's paid attention knows that gun control is a losing issue on the national stage.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)and what happens when an attempt to prohibit a dreaded thing, practice or status. Prohibitionists fixate on the very real people who possess, occupy or maintain some identity status, and to dread and hate them. Perhaps this is the real dynamic of prohibitionism: to find an excuse to condemn and punish (in some way) vast numbers of people who are loathed in the first place; the prohibition is secondary. Once this bad habit is learned well, the prohibitionist just will not give up on the self-created "moral high ground" they think they occupy, and will continue to exorcise/exercise their demons no matter the political costs and ineffectiveness of their "policy" measures. They become extremists.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)I am not sure what that gains you though...
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)After all more people are killed and injured by automobiles than firearms each year.
As for the argument that vehicles were not "designed" to kill or maim, it fails. As a device that is not designed to maim or kill does so very readily. Of course there is a human in command of it, but the same holds true for a firearm.
Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)and a lot of us disagree. Oh, well. If everybody just fights over the first comment instead of the OP, I'm going to be sad.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)I did recommend this one for you.
Feel better?
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)you win. go back to the front.
back/front.
I kill me.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,482 posts)...please keep your seat back forward.
ileus
(15,396 posts)MicaelS
(8,747 posts)1. I think the desire to possess a firearm should disqualify you from possessing a firearm
It's always so refreshing when you Gun Prohibitionists finally out yourselves.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)I think the desire to possess a firearm for the purpose of killing humans should disqualify. Anyone desiring to carry a gun in public should definitely be subject to periodical psyche evaluations and be subject to stringent licensing. None of that is going to happen, though, as long as SCOTUS upholds it's current position on 2A.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Glassunion
(10,201 posts)sounds better to me.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)It's a cruel predicament -- people with serious mental illnesses have extreme difficulty holding a job, so they can't pay for treatment, so they can't get healed, so they can't hold a job... Good luck getting the free market to solve that problem for any but the luckiest patients.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)petronius
(26,606 posts)disqualifiers should be lifetime bans, although the method of removing the disqualification might vary. For mental health, a comprehensive and case-by-case assessment by a panel makes the most sense; for something like a felony conviction I think it could just be an automatic process, X number of years passing without another offense.
I agree that no/few doctors would be willing to certify anyone 'gun-safe', which is the same problem (among many) that proposals for psych evaluation prior to purchasing suffer from - it's too arbitrary, too time-consuming to do halfway decently, and places too much responsibility on practitioner who, while a professional, is perhaps not regularly trained in assessing fitness for gun-ownership in particular...
Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)I'm curious exactly who would conduct the hearing. The nature of the case has more to do with medical condition than character or facts of law, so a typical District judge may be ill-equipped to make an informed decision. Perhaps members of the Mental Health Administration would be suitable.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Competency, involuntary commitment orders, etc..
Doesn't mean they really can make an informed decision, but it kind of fits with some of their existing processes.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)From the one you linked:
"Mental disorder" means a behavioral or emotional illness that results from a psychiatric or neurological disorder.
(2) "Mental disorder" includes a mental illness that so substantially impairs the mental or emotional functioning of an individual as to make care or treatment necessary or advisable for the welfare of the individual or for the safety of the person or property of another.
This could technically bar someone with hand-washing OCD from buying a gun. It's the weasel words like "or advisable" that cast the net far too wide. Definitions like this need to be reworked to focus on individuals with delusional or violent tendencies.
I'm glad that there may be a change so that people can get their doctor to clear them, though I like you wonder about the liability issue and how many doctors are willing to put themselves on the line by essentially assuring the community that someone--anyone--will be responsible with a weapon. Better for a judge or panel to do it like in the states you describe.
Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)Disqualification requires the person to have a mental condition described in 10-101, and have "a history of violent behavior against the person or another." Hand-washers are not disqualified. That's been assailed in the recent past, however. In 2011, the original version of HB 730 would've made ANY diagnosis of a DSM-IV mental condition a disqualifier. This would apply to people with anorexia, bulimia, insomnia, anxiety, hypochondria, erectile dysfunction, phobias, dyslexia, stuttering, attention deficit disorder, and transsexuals.
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)I'm not aware of any mental conditions that can actually be "cured". It seems like you have to stay on your medication and if you come off, you are back to the same condition again.
Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)but it is very common for successful care to result in a patient being able to manage their condition independently, without further treatment. Few people (fewer professionals) would describe their condition as "cured," but it no longer impairs their ability to live a normal life.
For firearms, the standard in Maryland is tendency or risk of committing violence. Many, many patients who considered violence (including suicide) before treatment no longer do so after. You do raise an interesting question, though: Is a person who is dependent on medication for the treatment of their condition fit to possess firearms? In my opinion, that'd be a question for the panel to decide, weighing the consequences of coming off a medication schedule against the petitioner's history of adhering to that schedule.
trouble.smith
(374 posts)but we should be careful that we don't use vague language in our legislation that could be used to deprive people of their rights inappropriately. specifically, I think we should be mindful that not all depression is created equal. If you're taking elavil because you want to kill yourself, you don't need a gun. If you're taking elavil because you're depressed over the loss of a family member a month ago, it might not be appropriate to start stripping you of your legal rights. Maybe if you're still taking your antidepressants a year later.