"I still have not been able to find anything similar in the frequency of other major retailers." - There are none.

What major retailer occupies a landmass over 4x the size of Manhattan?
Has a daily population 4x the population of all 5 boroughs of NYC combined?

Oh, the humanity.

...the difference between correlation and causation.

if the firearm and bullets are located within the same zipcode.

Because firearms are sold in the store, therefore firearm crime happens outside the store.
Because bullets are in a box, a firearm is loaded outside of that box.

It's simple really.

...that even a significant majority of Walmarts sell firearms. Fact is that it isn't even half and those that do sell a fairly limited selection of mostly small caliber rifles and lowend shotguns. Pure comedy that the OP is attempting (desperately) to correlate Walmart with firearm crimes when they can't even be sure that the Walmart in these stories sold firearms in the first place. Gun control extremists showing how their "logic" works

A box of 40 and 45 for two other co-workers....all with my LCP in my front right pocket. No issues here.

Must I really add the sarcasm tag?
In a more serious note I want to ask if the pistol was visible?

Ive heard reports that Wal-Mart has sometimes refused to sell a customer ammo if they have a gun. Even if a mismatched caliber.

Wall Mart is frequented by THOSE PEOPLE.

I did a quick Google for Target robberies and found these:

'Cause this one is in the running....

Or are you giving us reasons that we should carry if shopping there?


Or are you giving us reasons to avoid Wal-Mart?


What point are you trying to make?


I saw a brand new (dealer tags on a test drive) Chrysler Pacifica catch on fire and burn right in our WM's parking lot once. Funniest thing you ever seen. After the FD showed up and put out the fire the lady doing the test drive pulled off the magnetic tags and called the dealer to tell them the great news. Needless to say I don't think she bought one.

Good place to end for the night, in case they had to go get some more ammo from a retailer that doesn't ask too many questions, just takes your money.

This is the 51st gun fire at Walmart incident, they're now averaging MORE than one a week for 2012.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1D4IVr5nDfE/UMW0UMajfNI/AAAAAAAABCw/KiCy2I568oY/s320/1212+Castle+Rock+a.JPG
Shots fired outside a Colorado Walmart
Scene of shooting at Castle Rock Walmart
Occurred December 7, 2012.

Two men have been arrested for firing a gun multiple times outside the Walmart at Castle Rock, Colorado.

They may be linked to a spree of shots-fired reports around that county, including into a Jehovah's Witness hall.

From an article and news video:

[The shooting spree] apparently came to an end near the Walmart Friday night. Ten to 15 shots were reported outside the store in Castle Rock with a truck being hit. A special Douglas County crimes unit responded and moments later police stopped a car and arrested Nicholas Deters, 20, of Larkspur and Tyson Olson, 29, of Parker.

Deters and Olson have been charged with illegally firing a weapon, criminal mischief and reckless endangerment. Olson was taken to the Douglas County Detention Facility and Deters is now out on bond.

What would you conclude?

Consider: Many Walmarts don't sell munitions. Did you delineate between stores?

than that, this also has a causal relationship to their policy of welcoming open and concealed carry, where based on their incidents with guns, half or more are not lawfully armed. When they were not appealing to armed people as a targeted demographic because they weren't pushing gun sales, they didn't have this problem. It is a change that also tracks with more people carrying, but not in all retail business, it is specific to Walmart.

Walmart has a corporate track record (not every store, or not every store all the time, but overall in their business retail outlets) of bad labor practices - things like having underaged sales people behind the counter selling guns and ammo, not training their sales people, whom they just throw into serving behind the counter on what they are required to do, bad security for their guns and ammo, and a tolerance for weapons in their stores including those who are not doing so legally, because that draws more customers, good or bad.

Store security for theft is policed; store security for other areas that are problematic - notably BOTH in store and in their parking lots, is one of the areas where they stint on spending money. When they have been forced by their local municipalities for example to clean up their problems with parking lot crimes by having their parking lots patrolled, the problems almost completely go away. They fight doing any kind of spending like that tooth and nail.


What you pro-gun guys have not addressed is why Walmart has these problems where other large retailers do not. What you gun guys are missing is that you could agree there is a clearly demonstrable problem, and support pressuring Walmart to clean up their act, but that only works if you are genuinely behind safe gun ownership and only legal gun ownership. Because if you are those two things, then you should find Walmart's track record unacceptable.

When Walmart did not sell guns and ammo, they did not have these problems;

What you pro-gun guys have not addressed is why Walmart has these problems where other large retailers do not.

I've been following these incidents, originally starting with just the ones in mens bathrooms.

NO, other stores do NOT have the same problems, do not have the same record of violations of regulations and do not have the same record of law suits over them or lost court cases.

Walmart is a uniquely bad corporate citizen, with a particularly bad record for lying to the public and getting caught lying in court.

I doubt you have been looking for them at Cosco.

Willful ignorance just because it doesn't fit your agenda? Simple Google search for armed robbery in Costco lots turns up pages of unique results. Costco had never sold firearms or ammo. They only sell gun safes. Simple Google searches turn up armed robberies and shootings in the parking lots of Walmarts that have never sold firearms even when corporate policy allowed. Your "correlation = causation" theory is an old, tired, worn out trick that only seeks to capitalize on emotional rhetoric. Easily seen through.

Most of the shootings took place outside of the store, in the parking lots. So what? How does that make Walmart responsible?
Bad people do bad things, always have, always will, that doesn't make Walmart responsible.

Read the poster's own words.

I still don't know what this poster thinks she's proven.

All she's proven is that bad people do bad things no matter where they're at. I'm guessing that she doesn't like Walmart and is trying to make it seem as if Walmart's policy on the carrying of guns on it's property is responsible for, once more, bad people doing bad things.

I also personally feel that they should not sell firearms. But my feelings have nothing to do with the crime that takes place in and around the Walmart stores.

From what I've personally read, Wally world has an issue following the proper ATF proceedures and paperwork compliance due to a lack of training. They also have an issue in some stores with properly securing them IMO. They treat firearms no differently than golf clubs as far as how they handle the sales. Now this is all my own personal perception from my visits to Walmart. However, I have not been in one that sells firearms in over a year so my perception may be off with how they treat them as a whole.

My preference is to shop at a smaller mom and pop for what I need. For one thing they know what they are doing, they know what they are talking about, and they insure that they get the sale and paperwork done properly. If they scew up, it will hurt their business. I just don't see the same care happening at a Walmart.

They're in a locked glass cabinet backed up by iron bars with plenty of cameras watching them, and the counter is manned 24/7, the ammo is kept behind the counter.
Funny thing is that about 5 months ago, they started to carry AR-15's in their stock, some really nice shotguns too.

MOST of the incidents (as defined by over half) have taken place in the store, or begun inside the store.

We are speaking here of specifically gun incidents, not other kinds of problems.

These should not be acceptable problems, the increase is notable, and it is possible to DECREASE the incidence of these problems as well - but Walmart only does what it is forced to do, dragging its feet as much as possible fighting doing anything.

But if you're so sure you know how they compare, make a list of say five other comparable stores, including ones like Target, and then track their gun incidents for the past two years in comparison, and provide a source for your statistics.

I've provided a source that lists every single one at Walmarts we know about (and there are quite easily possibly ones we don't know about, where no gun was fired.

The response 'there's nothing we can do' is nonsense. This is not something we have to accept or should accept.

So my questions:
"Good place to end for the night, in case they had to go get some more ammo from a retailer that doesn't ask too many questions, just takes your money." - How would they have bought some ammo from this retailer? They don't sell firearms or ammunition in the Castle Rock Co Walmart.
"apparently came to an end near the Walmart Friday night" - How does coming to an end NEAR a Walmart suddenly equal AT a Walmart?

How many of those 51 incidents accured at a Walmart that does not sell firearms or ammunition. Such a leap of logical faith.

Given that the overwhelming majority of Walmarts sell guns and ammo, it is reasonable someone would go there looking for those items.

Walmarts that do not sell guns or ammo are much less common, the exception to the rule, to ones that do.

What time of day do these happen? Many Wal Marts are open 24 hours, Targets are not. Many Targets are smaller stores that share a building and parking lot with PetSmart and other stores. Wal Mart does not. That is another way your attempt to show Wal Mart's crime problem is "good ole boys gone bad" instead of thugs choosing Wal Mart parking lots for easy prey at 3AM.

I've been characterized as a racist for using the word "thug".

I'd never go near MallWart.

It ain't a pleasant shopping experience.

They have everything to do with Walmart sales policies, their failed history of regulation compliance, and their lack of security and targeting of the people involved as their customers.

You make no argument, you offer no contradictory facts.

The reality is that so long as people - including pro-gun people - opt out of acknowledging there is a problem and being part of the solution, you become part of the problem.

And as part of the problem, what you want when you fail to help with reducing these incidents, loses importance in direct proportion to your unwillingness to solve the problem.

Make no mistake, EVERY poll, no matter who has written the polling questions, indicates people are concerned about the serious failures of our gun culture. If you only inhabit little echo chambers like the gungeon, you are sticking your heads in the proverbial sand and out of touch with the larger population -- including gun owners, and even NRA members.

So I would caution you that blowing this off, or denying the failings of our gun culture, like elections, have consequences.

and everything to do with security and being open 24 hours. As for the polls go, out of the ones I read the questions of, they actually support the status quo, but reported as "supporting more control" by those who do not know current laws. Remember, the most common one is from Frank Luntz.

I am pointing out errors in your interpretation of the facts.

The three shootings posted in this thread have nothing to do with Walmart, according to the articles. The shooters were not customers, they were not in Walmart at any time.

> They have everything to do with Walmart sales policies,
> their failed history of regulation compliance,
> and their lack of security and targeting of the people involved as their customers.

If you want to discuss these issues, please do so. However, the links in this thread are not related to any of these issues.

This is a continuation of a previous thread where most of the incidents have to do with people who were in or about to go in or who had just left Walmart.

One of these says nothing one way or the other about whether or not the person with the gun had been in Walmart. But the parking lot is still their property and the store's responsibility. The issue is in part the tolerance for this kind of behavior from and by people with guns and their choice not to have adequate security or in the case below, not adequately controlling that security.

Last edited Wed Dec 12, 2012, 04:36 PM - Edit history (1)

Walmart is victimizing society (in more ways than one) so it deserves to be banned.

???

...

.... at convenience stores. It must have something to do with the fact that they sell Slurpees. It attracts the wrong kind of people.