Edward Snowden in conversation with John Perry Barlow - Liveblog at PDF'14

http://www.opednews.com/articles/June-5th-Edward-Snowden-i-by-the-web-Edward-Snowden_Privacy_Surveillance_US-Govt-Surveillance-Wiretapping-Intl-140607-191.html



Edward Snowden in conversation with John Perry Barlow - Liveblog at PDF'14
Submitted by kanarinka on June 5, 2014 - 11:30am

JPB: National security is not our borders. It's the founding documents that we still profess to believe in. If we are insecure in our beliefs, then that's a threat to national security.

Snowden: Are we protecting the nation or are we protecting the state? If we are destroying those values, are we really making progress ? Is that what America is about? We say good night to someone we love we have to think about what that's going to look like in a government database 5 years from now. This should be a concern to every American.

JPB: One thing people have a difficult time with is the difference between data and information. Data are facts about the world. Information is something that has been deemed to be relevant in a specific context.

Snowden: One of the biggest debaetes we've had recently is about metadata. Who we called, how long it took. Metadata is a comprehensie record of what we do and who we are. the defenders of suspicionless surveillance tell us not to worry about it becaues it's not the words we say it's just everything else except the words. Michael Hague literally admitted to a reporter that the NSA kills people based on metadata. Metadata tells you everything

JPB: It could mean little as long as the judgements that are made about that information and winnowing that out of the data is transparent and well-understood by everybody who is being surveiled. I took a walk in the Tenderloin and there were surveillance cameras everywhere. I didn't mind that. I didn't mind that there was tech that could pick up the sound of a gunshot.

Snowden: There is a distinction between things that are held in private hands versus things held in public hands. The government can put you in jail. But even though the pricate sector doesn't do as much today the powers and privileges that they enjoy are expanding. The business model of the Internet is surveillance. We need to think about what we want to allow for the rules of the Internet. He mentions the 13 Principles - any information that is collected and used is necessary and proportionate to a case. For a government it would be things like - you can't monitor a whole country because you are worried about a few individuals. For a company it would be siilar things. If you are collecting information for advertising then you can only collect that info and you need a data retention policy that holds it for the shortest time possible. Academics have described it as "Databases of Ruin" - the temptation to abuse the data is high.

JPB: When I first got around computing I thought there was something seductive about an empty field in a database. Now we have a whole culture that does that.

Snowden: When we think about it from a tech perspective, we like to solve problems, we like to collect data. Obama said recently - just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. Sometimes the field needs to be left unfilled.

JPB: There's an old adage "Why do animals lick their genitals?" and the answer is "Because they can".

Snowden: I think you are on to something there. We are not getting a lot out of this. We have created programs that are watching people around the world. The government has had a year to justify this. They have not come up with the justification. Now we see that the programs are not just affecting us but they are affecting the economy. They are reducing trust in our products, our country and our government. Citizens are losing trust in our government. We need truth and reconciliation. We need to end mass surveillance and the violation of our rights. Security is not the only value that Americans treasure.

Snowden: There is a limit to transparency. We don't need to know the names of every target. We need to know the broad strokes of a program. It's no longer a question of who do we trust. Do these people represent our interests? Google has rolled out a new end-to-end encryption campaign as part of the "Reset the Net" campaign. We are past the point where citizens are entirely dependent on governments to defend our rights. We don't have to wait for them. We can do it now.

JPB: In the early days with the EFF, we were in a ismilar position to the NSA. John Podesta invited us down to his office. I pointed out to him - "You have an economy that is going to blow up that will not work unless it's a trusted economy. If you do somethign to that, the consequences to national security from an economic perspective then that will blow up." They don't consider that until they are forced to. The NSA allowed strong encryptography only because the EFF came in and proved that it was speech.

[applause from the audience]

That wouldn't work now because the Justice Dept went in and lied to the Supreme Court and the Court is happy to maintain its position on verdicts where it was lied to.

Snowden: Even our secret courts are being lied to. The judiciaries are getting bolder. How do we correct these bold mistakes in policy we have inherited? They have ended up undermining our constitution. We need judges to stand up and say "this is not right". These are the people that decided that instead of investigating criminals they will investigate us.

We need to think about what makes us successful in terms of national security. We are spending 75 billion dollars on spying. Do we need to do that? That's more than education, health, and science. Do we need to be collecting the communications of everyone in America or do we need to be educating America?

JPB: Are we beginning to get our money's worth for that 75 billion? I can't think of a single major event that the intelligence bodies of the US called correctly.

Snowden: This is a tough one. We can't say that no spying is good under no circumstances. They can't predict the future. The 9/11 commission determined that we already had the information we needed but we didn't know how to use it. Unfortunately, the data collection programs instituted after 9/11 piled more data on top of the haystack that we already didn't understand. The 75 billion dollar programs are making us less safe. Other people can get into those back doors built into those programs. It doesn't make sense.

JPB: It doesn't make sense. Even the people in charge of the senselessness are impotent in the face of it. I consulted with the Navy some years ago. The general I spoke with felt that their tools were ill-equipped to fight the war on terror. How do we stop the juggernaut?

Snowden: We need to have a comprehensive response to the failure of institutions domestically and internationally. The reason government exists is to champion public interest. Government agendas don't represent public need. When it comes to a fight with dollars, Lockheed Martin and Booz Allen Hamilton have more than you. Everyone here needs to remember that we have to vote. We need to be campaigning against people who aren't representing the public interest.

JPB: One of the things you are spared is the palpable sense of despair that I feel in regards to those elections. I care very much about the processes of democracy. John Gilmore asked "Did you vote?" and I just laughed. The fact that I would laugh at that question for the first time in my life is not a good sign.

Snowden: The quality of the candidates seems like we have to choose between the lesser of two evils. That's not good for the country. Parties don't represent our interests. We need citizens who are not ""professional"" politicians who represent public interests.

JPB: The nation state is exactly the wrong kind of government to work well in an information age.

Snowden: There is something to be said for the ponderous nature of the nation state in the modern age.

JPB: The first step is having someone like you who is capable, willing and able to stand up and say "I have had enough." I hate the fact that you are practically alone in this. We are doing our best to proliferate your kind.

Snowden: I appreciate the compliments but the reality is that I didn't do anything special. I did a civic duty. If you are sitting at my desk and you see this massive violation of the public interest, what would you do? We have to say "I'm not special". I'm not morally gifted.

JPB: You are brave and you are not pretending to be asleep. The Navajo have a saying that you cannot awaken people that are pretending to be asleep. A large percentage of the American people are playing possum.

Snowden: We do need to wake up. We might trust our officials now but there is no guarantee that we would trust them in the future. The question is "What are you going to do about it?"

JPB: I hope that question will ring in everything we do here in the next couple of days. The USA exists to ask that question and to answer it right. God Bless you Ed Snowden for helping us ask that question.

[standing ovation]

Snowden: When I did what I did last year, my greatest fear was that nobody would care. People in this room show that that is not the case. We can't change this situation overnight. The fact that we are talking about this, that you are talking about this, shows that we will get a better government. I just returned information to the public hands where it belonged. Seeing this level of support encourages me that you will.

JPB: This is a good time to announce that we have started the Courage Foundation to help in the legal defense of Edward Snowden. Freesnowden.is can receive donations on our behalf. It's going to take a lot.

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