We had better be concentrating on tangible things rather than those of weak symbolism. I do thing, if the symbolism is strong enough, we may feel it is as palpable as the tangible in which case we should do something about it. I do not believe it applies in this case.

Seem to have been unaware that this was NOT his original interment site. Neither was I until someone else mentioned it in the thread. That fact makes this completely uncontroversial in my view.

It's troubling.

I think anything that makes Americans feel like they're being marginalized or rejected as equal members of our society needs to go--or be put firmly in context. I'm glad the whole REDSKINS thing is about to be wrapped up (still say they should have changed the logo to a damn potato, and made potato-based snacks a theme...tater tots, curly fries, baked potatoes with toppings, the possibilities are endless....but nooooo, they thought it was more important to insult native peoples than include them). I think it's time we say farewell to Cristobal Colon aka Colombo aka Columbus, too, or at least start telling the truth about the guy.

Why is it so hard for people to be for real about our history? What makes us a great nation, and one that is constantly refreshed and re-invented, is our ability to CHANGE and include; we do that WAY BETTER than other countries--our failings notwithstanding. People who are clueless have looked to Europe in the past and felt they were "nicer" when it came to diversity, when in actual fact, they were only "nicer" when there weren't a lot of 'em--and by 'em, I mean anyone who wasn't from the predominant gene pool. If you stood out in their crowd, and were unique in your genetic appearance, you were celebrated, fussed over, regarded as a curiosity--so long as there weren't "too many" of ya!

The rightwing elements in Europe are making a lot of noise because there are so many of those pesky "minorities" in "their" countries, from South Asia, from Turkey, from the African littoral and the sub-saharan regions....and Europe is less homogenous these days....some people just don't like it. Europe has this nasty rightwing streak that simmers just below the surface--a lot of people on this side of the pond are unaware of it, but it's there, and it's ugly.

At least one of the usual suspects is in that thread - but she/he is too good at standing on the line.

He's dead. I'm tired of the let bygones be bygones philosophy that seems to be the entry ticket to be considered modern and mature. It's past time to fix this shit, let's do as much as we can.

They dug his ass up from his designated resting place and used his rotting ass as a physical representation of their power to create a climate of fear and terror and oppression. And like you I am not buying "heritage" arguments either.

These were dumbass people who tried to break up the nation, and they LOST. We don't celebrate other opponents we crushed in wartime--no one goes to Rommel High School or drives on the Hitler Highway, after all.

All this Scarlett O'Hara romanticizing just needs to stop. Most people in the south who weren't slaves weren't sitting on the verandah in a hoop skirt, or sipping a mint julep and smoking a cigar either. A very small crew had that fine life; they were the rich bastards, they had all the money and the property--to include human property--and everyone else was just getting by.

Yet those "one percenters" -- if you will -- managed to drag the entire region into ignominy and also convinced a bunch of dumb yay-hoos that the pallor of their epidermis made them "less wretched" even if they lived in abject poverty and had the freedom--if not the finances--to travel. They sent those poor fools to die by the wagonload, for their glorious-cough-choke cause, and they, all by themselves, managed to create stupid and pointless resentments that have lasted for a hundred and fifty frigging years.

I want to die seeing the horizon, not the clouds and fog that have blinded us all for far too long. We CAN do this, if people would just approach and acknowledge their damn biases.

It's just exhausting, sometimes.

Agreed.

I've never been to the South, so the little glimpses I get of what has been going on with the statues, the flags, the parks, the streets, the schools have always been from online posts and hints.

Not that there isn't racism in the north or CA, but this mirror world of alternative history and its symbols held sacred is so prevalent-seeming, I can only guess what kind of social support that it has. It was only last month I heard about Stone Mountain. I went to the website and there isn't one mention that the whole damn thing was created by Klan members on Klan-member owned land. You have to Google the names mentioned on the website and their affiliations are on their wiki pages. So much for "keep it to remind of our history!"

Tearing this stuff down doesn't fix racism (of course) but at least there's one less rallying point.

I mean, if you go down there as a tourist, you know you're in for some heavy stuff at certain venues. That's fine, because it's expected, you prepare yourself--you walk into a cabin and try to imagine yourself living there, bone tired, with way too many people crowded in there, and not enough nutrition to keep a person going.

But then, you go to dinner, maybe, you take a stroll through a park, you come upon a big ass fancy statue of some idiot on a horse, and you realize that this was one of the morons that perpetrated the oppression and was an architect of the greatest loss of life as a percentage of the national population ever. You have to ask yourself "Why in hell is this ASSHOLE being celebrated?" It's not "heritage"--those bastards were traitors. We don't have statues of Benedict Arnold in every town square, why should we have statues of these disloyal idiots in the United States of America?

You know, normally, when I see a crowd of Americans screaming USA! USA! USA! I sometimes shake my head at what is often a display of mindless national fervor, but today, when the crowd started screaming that at the lowering of the Confederate flag, I felt VERY differently--a bit of a chill ran up my spine, and it was a good chill...not quite a Chris Matthews 'tingle' but I felt a sea change. It was like the people of Charleston, after a hundred and fifty years of bullshit, suddenly woke the fuck up and said "Shit--we're part of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!! E PLURIBUS-fricken-UNUM!!!!!!!"

That gave me hope, and I thank the good people of Charleston for that.

Is that in some areas it is worse than it was then. There is no place to rest or refresh one's spirit anywhere as there once was a spirit of unity in places.

I fear the generation that this is breeding, who've never known anything different, who would not think twice of eliminating the other. There is no sense of freedom when people divide into clans like they are now.

I've read before that places do have spirits from the people there and some places have to be avoided or be destroyed.

of the hardest, toughest brothers I knew.

Stone Mountain was a HAVEN for the KKK when I was a kid. They owned that place. And if anyone with melanin had to go there for some reason, they made DAMN SURE they were gone before the sun set. It wasn't until the 80s that black folks I knew even started going to the park there. And last I heard, Stone Mountain is FULL of black folks and even had a black mayor.

I went to the website and there isn't one mention that the whole damn thing was created by Klan members on Klan-member owned land. You have to Google the names mentioned on the website and their affiliations are on their wiki pages. So much for "keep it to remind of our history!"

"History" to alot of folks means "stuff that happened in the past that doesn't make me too uncomfortable to talk about today." It has nothing to do with actual history and they have proven to not only have no interest in actual history, they are actually HOSTILE to learning about it as well as to those who would seek to educate them.

I knew he was a Klansman, so I figured Stone Mountain would have a pretty icky history too. I wish someone would make movies about these stories--that's great that the town is now home to Black folks and a Black mayor. Outliving the bastards, the best revenge.

Put sensors on strategic points on the imagery of those confederates, and turn the entire thing into a shooting gallery. Give little kids a gun that reacts to the sensors and racks up points when their aim is true, and a little souvenir union soldier cap, and have them shoot at the rebels -- if they hit all the sensors, they get a prize! Charge 'em five bucks a go! Give the profits to the UNCF!!!

I'm joking (only just), but it would marry well with the prevailing enjoyments of guns, ammo and shootin' down that way! And it would also point out that those clowns were the LOSERS in the war between the states!

And it spares me having to wade through the "but, buts" in the other thread.

I want to die seeing the horizon, not the clouds and fog that have blinded us all for far too long. We CAN do this, if people would just approach and acknowledge their damn biases.

You are a king among men.

Traitors. And that leaves out the centuries of slavery.

I have to live here. My only consolation is the fighters for civil rights.

Move the statue. Move the remains.

Honoring racists and terrorists with public money has been the American way for centuries but I think most people are pretty sick of it by now.

You nailed it - I pay taxes too -

And it's a worthless use of my money.