"small group of Oregon teens"



It would be a worthwhile discussion but for the stupid added comment.

You're really scraping.

And religion is the major source of homosexual discrimination and persecution, I'd say it's a great condemnation.

Many progressives identify with a book that commands them to stone homosexuals. It's great pointing out the dissonance and contradiction by reminding them what that costs the rest of us.

is too small to carry the weight of your sweeping conclusions. That's the quantitative defect.

The fact is, this is a flamebait OP. Don't be a moth. They don't do well with flames.

The source of most discrimination and persecution of homosexuals is religion. That's a fact.

This is just an example of religion being the source of that discrimination. And a good example at that.

Again, this points out the cost to the rest of us of people who choose to identify with religious texts that tell people to stone homosexuals to death at the command of god.

As but one example, Sochi was not a religious convention.

Some would say every day; but even if one doesn't, I'd say Valentines Day fits the bill.

Butbi think Valentine's day is, if the school allows it....many dont anymore.

By poisining their minds. And this is a result.

in this forum, it would seem natural that the other side of the coin needs to be shown, too. That's what this forum is about--open discussion about all aspects of religion. If he were posting this in a religious safe haven, I would support the dislike of them being posted.

and in all places? In your opinion?

Bryant

But that isn't the point. This point is that this forum is for discussing all aspects of religion.. The good and the bad. On that thought:

How many atheists here believe that religion is 100% negative at all times and in all places? And don't conflate "100% negative" with "benefits could be gained through secular means."

And if you leave out the "could be gained through secular means" you are missing the argument. The argument, I believe, is that religion does terrible things like killing kids, poisoning their minds, and so on. And it provides nothing that couldn't be gained through secular means. So why does it continue? Why do people cling to it when it does so much evil, and does nothing good that can't be gained through other means?

Bryant

As to why does it continue? Cultural/social means. It's a pretty strong force and many are shunned if they don't continue the tradition. My mom died never knowing I was an atheist because I knew she would stop talking to me and I didn't want that. Do religions do good things? Yes. Sure. Could those be done otherwise. Probably, but we won't likely ever know. My saying to take that out of the mix is that saying it "could be gained through secular means" does not mean that one thinks religion is bad all the time. Just that the positives could be gained elsewhere. Put another way, it could still be doing good things and not being evil even though that good could be developed elsewhere.

on this forum. But that's just my opinion.

One way of looking at it is that religion needs to be less arrogant in assuming that the benefits it provides could only be gained through religious means - that's clearly where you come down.

But another understandable way of looking at it is this - if the benefits of religion could be gained through other means, and if religion has huge drawbacks, than the decision to keep practicing and believing in religion is at best selfish and at worst monstrous. As long as religion is practiced, the drawbacks, like killing kids for example, or retarding scientific progress, or imposing religious rules on people, will continue to afflict society, and the need to prevent that, implies that religion needs to go away along with the negative things it produces. We would be losing nothing, because all of the benefits of religion could be gained through secular means, and we would be gaining a lot by eliminating all of the negative things religion causes.

Bryant

are selfish nor monstrous. I think a lot of people are religious because that's the way they were raised. And I don't say that in a light hearted way. I was raised very strict Catholic and it was no easy thing to come to grips with my atheism. I ignored it and called it something else for many years. Or just ignored it hoping it would go away. Staying with something they have been a part of for their whole lives in a culture which puts a lot of emphasis on it is not monstrous. It's to be expected.

But if you look at developing countries around the world, the role and importance of religion is slowly decreasing. Many see that as a horrible thing. I don't. Perhaps I'm wrong.

And if you truly understand that POV, as described in your last paragraph, why would you continue to advocate for religions powerful place in society?

Obviously the key word there is if - if I believed that religions benefits could all be duplicated by secular functions, I would probably be an atheist. But, as you know, I'm a believer, so I believe that there are benefits to religion that can't be gained through secular functions. I don't know if you consider that facetious - I am simply trying to understand both sides of the argument, even if I come down on one side.

Bryant

And I hope you know that many believers come in to a reasonable discussion (you think we were having a reasonable discussion, yes?) like okasha does below.

The god you believe in now would still exist just as much if all of the benefits of religion could be duplicated by secular functions. Are you religious now just because religion does nice things, or because you accept god as physically real?

What religious benefits cannot be had through secular methods?

Plausible source, I'm not sure that qualifies as a benefit.

I think you need to be more precise in describing any benefits, for the mother tht killed her kids and the homophobic teens all have "relationships with god" too.

from.

Bryant

And you wonder why there isn't more constructive and fruitful conversation here?

I've raised meaningful points that you, apparently, refuse to address. Why?

OK - what are the coherent benefits of believing in God, that you can't get through secular means. In order to answer this question one needs to address a more fundamental question - is there or isn't there a God. I believe that there is a God, and you don't.

Since I believe that there is a God, I believe there is benefit to drawing close to him and trying to understand my place in his plan. I think it's valuable to consider how he wants me to behave (I usually characterize this as he'd like me to be less of a jerk). I have found that it's beneficial to have faith that there's more to this life than just a birth, death, and oblivion. I found that particularly beneficial when I lost my parents a few years back.

Now, all of those stem from the initial proposition, which is the existence of God. I can't prove the existence of God to you, of course (and I doubt you can prove the non-existence of God to me) therefore on that particular issue we are just going to disagree.

That said, do you really feel it necessary to slam into me for going to lunch and not responding to your post quickly enough? What's that all about?

Bryant

You believe in god, therefore you see the benefit, because you believe in god.

While I understand your point, it's still a meaningless answer to the question.

How about this: How is a relationship inherently a benefit?

Not a relationship with god, just the simple act of having a relationship with/to something. How is that inherently beneficial? Take god out of the equation for a minute and look at it objectively.

My apologies for jumping to a conclusion regarding your not responding.

I'll take one - perspective. Even if you don't believe in anything but the physical world, it's still a big fucking world.

Consider all of the experiences you have had up to this point in your life. All the choices you made, all the moral quanderies you faced, all the beautiful and horrible things you've seen, all the emotions you've felt, everything that brought you to this moment in time. Now multiply that by 7 billion other humans. Now add to that all of the natural world - the animals the plants everything. We swim in an ocean of reality. If you only stay in your own head, and don't build relationships with other people, than you only see with your very limited perspective - that's not meant as insult - the most brilliant sensitive person on earth still only has a very narrow window to look through.

Reaching out to others grants you another side to the view of the world. Lets you glimpse, at least for a moment, what they see and how they see it. That's why it's good to make friends, to be interested in people, to read great books, and experience great art (which are ways to connect to people you haven't met) because the more you can do that the more perspective you have. Connecting with nature, through experience or science, also provides valuable insights.

It is a bit like the blind men who went to see the elephant, a Jain parable.

Once upon a time, there lived six blind men in a village. One day the villagers told them, "Hey, there is an elephant in the village today."

They had no idea what an elephant is. They decided, "Even though we would not be able to see it, let us go and feel it anyway." All of them went where the elephant was. Everyone of them touched the elephant.

"Hey, the elephant is a pillar," said the first man who touched his leg.

"Oh, no! it is like a rope," said the second man who touched the tail.

"Oh, no! it is like a thick branch of a tree," said the third man who touched the trunk of the elephant.

"It is like a big hand fan" said the fourth man who touched the ear of the elephant.

"It is like a huge wall," said the fifth man who touched the belly of the elephant.

"It is like a solid pipe," Said the sixth man who touched the tusk of the elephant.

They began to argue about the elephant and everyone of them insisted that he was right. It looked like they were getting agitated. A wise man was passing by and he saw this. He stopped and asked them, "What is the matter?" They said, "We cannot agree to what the elephant is like." Each one of them told what he thought the elephant was like. The wise man calmly explained to them, "All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all those features what you all said."

"Oh!" everyone said. There was no more fight. They felt happy that they were all right..

and understand interpersonal connections and relationships. And you could not be more wrong.

I experience all of that you listed, as do all of those that share my non-belief, all without the belief YOU seem to require in order to experience that.

And because non-believers all have the same experiences and capabilities to wonder that you do, proves that your claim CAN be had through secular methods.

Is there anything else you think is a benefit of religion that cannot be gained through secular methods?

If I did say something like that I apologize. But I don't really think I did. You asked me what the value of a relationship was, taking God out of the equation, so that's the question I answered; I didn't realize what you intended by it.

Relationships as a generic concept have the benefits i mentioned above, but relationships aren't generic, they are specific. I get benefits out of my conversations with you that I wouldn't get in a relationship with say rug. Or trotsky. And similarly I would get benefits out of a relationship with them, that I wouldn't get with you.

A relationship with God has many of the generic benefits mentioned above, but it's a relationship with God (someone I believe exists, but that you don't). The God I believe in has a perspective far greater than my own or any humans, and by trying to understand what God wills for me I have a perspective I couldn't get anywhere else.

Bryant

An that we agree. But any view on the positive or negative aspects would be highly subjective, unless it could be empirically proven one way or the other.

Your relationship with god cannot be proven, objectively or empirically to be positive or negative, so I fail to see how "my relationship to god" can possibly answer the question of what benefits can be had with religion that cannot had through secular methods.

To reiterate, this is the question at hand:

What benefits can be had with religion that cannot had through secular methods?

All of my answers are going to be dependent on the existence of God - which you don't accept, so all of them are going to be rejected.

In effect you are saying what benefits can be had with a religion that don't involve God that can't be had through secular methods - but once you take God out of the equation, there aren't any.

Also - please explain so I don't make that mistake again - what precisely did I say that lead you to believe that I felt that Atheists were incapable of empathy or building relationships with other?

Bryant

Hey you didn't answer my question, did you?

Bryant

Amazing.

I inferred that from your post that I responded to. It appeared that that I what you were getting at. If you say that was not your intention, I accept that. Yet it shows, again, that the question has no other answer than "nothing."

Which leads us to the follow-up:

If religion provides nothing of benefit that cannot be had through secular methods, why tolerate it's elevated position in society when it comes with so many negative aspects?

there would be no reason to accept Religion's elevated position or, indeed, any position for Religion at all.

I do believe there is a God as do many others in the society you live in. I don't know if you have a narrow world-view, but I can comment that I do understand where you are coming from, but you profess not to understand where I am coming from. Add to that your barely concealed hostility, and . . . well, yeah it's probably all my fault we aren't getting along.

Bryant

That religion provides no benefit that cannot be had through secular methods. That being true, why keep religion in its elevated position in society when it come with so many harmful and negative attributes?

and requiring me to answer as if there was no God. I can't provide a satisfactory answer based on the answer that there is no God.

If there is no God than we should do away with religion.

But, you know, there is a God (at least according to me).

What is complicated about that? Why don't you get it?

Bryant

You don't see the problem there?

I have said that without God the benefits of religion, that can't be gained through secular means, can't really be argued. If we were talking about the generalized value of religion than I could talk about helping people and the sense of community and the like, but all of those things could be had in a secular way as well.

Bryant

He got banned from Interfaith for violating the SOP with his first and only post. Nowhere to dump the garbage but here or AA.

I don't need you coming in to shit on it.

But, as to your first point, I know that. My point is that a varied discussion of religion (the good AND the bad) happens in this forum. If you don't like that "garbage" you are free to trash this forum and stay in the safe havens. Perhaps that would make you more happy?

it looks as if that didn't happen.

But there is none. It's flamebait smoldering. Kudos for your efforts but the flames are coming.

ETA: And here they are.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218124080#post63

Last edited Wed Apr 16, 2014, 09:01 PM - Edit history (1)

fact or two to your response. You could have done so and spared me the effort and yourself the palpitations.

mischaracterizing positions.

He's got those too.

My church marches in the Pride Parade and feeds homeless gay youth.

Do you think that religion is always a positive force? 100% of the time in all places? I'm really asking. I think it would be interesting to know what people really think in this forum.

But, to me, it is frustrating that your religion (which has an ugly sibling) needs to fight for something that was created, in a large degree, by other religions. If I still believed in a god, I would most likely have switched to be Episcopalian. But realizing I didn't believe in a god made that kind of a silly move--went the UU route instead.

You wouldn't need to march in that parade if it weren't for relgious opposition to equality.

And mainstream churches wouldn't have to use words like "affirming" or "open minds" as code for "WE don't hate homosexuals like those OTHER Christians" if religion of so many stripes didn't preach and promote so much bigotry. It would just be taken for granted that anything calling itself a Christian church would be welcoming to all equally.

"Interesting point" is all you have?

Religion has been used to oppress LGBT people.

If for each example you give for positivity can be countered with the exact same example as for negativity, how is that an appropriate response to the question?

Can you name a single positive aspect provided by religion that cannot be had through secular methods?

Others might not agree.

Let's make this as objective as possible, taking your personal beliefs out of the equation.

That is crystal clear.

How is religion a positive force for the world that cannot be gotten through secular methods?


If you are unable to come up with an answer, just say so.

How is religion a positive force for the world that cannot be gotten through secular methods?

You don't like the answer that is your problem but you will get no more from me.

By including secular methods in your answer, you didn't answer the question at all.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Unless you think nonsense is a valid response to a question...

Seriously, are you still in high school?

Being a young person still in school would explain a lot about your inability to understand basic logic and exhibit simple comprehension. Am I wrong about that?

Somehow I just don't believe that you wish me the best.

Is that too much for you?

Maybe I am not the person who has the problem.

Your inability to comprehend the most basic of questions is definitely a problem. Yours, not mine.

I understand your tactic here. You're trying to bait me into saying something that will get my post hidden.

Either way we are talking in circles.

If you ask me what the square root of 9 is and I answer "purple", have I answered your question?

If I can not keep up with you then why bother wasting your time with me?

If you have the need to have the last word but I am done here. I wish you the best.

But you choosing not to respond when you're unable or unwilling to comprehend the questions being asked would be best for the entire Group.

You have a nice day.

exception among religious institutions in this country, the vast majority of which actively work to deny basic rights to LGBTQ people, actively work to deny people access to reproductive health care, and more generally promote and work in collusion with rightwing political forces.

"Those better be 100% cotton t-shirts or god will smite them."

On a more serious note, I'd guess that the young d-bags who wore those t-shirts have never been the targets of bullying, anti-LGBT or otherwise, and just glossed over that the point of the day is to draw attention to it. I went to high school with a young man who committed suicide because he was made to feel ashamed of his sexual orientation and it still makes me sad to think of it 25+ years later. He was generous, sweet, and kind, just an all-around good person, and I hate to think that he might not have felt he could reach out to his friends to talk to them about how he was feeling.

Dumbasses.

That they should have the right to wear the shirts. Its freedom of speech.

However, I also have freedom of speech and if I were a student I would wear a shirt saying something like:

but if wearing a shirt has the potential to provoke something more than a verbal dispute, the school would be negligent to turn a blind eye to that possibility.

Is that celebration of common things in the us culture is discouraged in the public schools while other groups or things are celebrated with special days or events...