Religion
Related: About this forumWhat the hell do Atheists need with special Atheist holidays?
by Robyn Pennacchia Apr 22, 2014
Im an atheist. For all intents and purposes, I have been an atheist for my whole life. Ive never been to church, anddespite having tried as a mental exercisecannot actually fathom what it would be like to think there was some bearded dude up there clocking my every move in order to discern whether or not I ought to burn in hell for all eternity. That seems awkward, although I would imagine that people who grew up believing that would have just as hard a time imagining him not being there.
Although I am decidedly dispassionate about what I believe in as far as that goesand I certainly dont care if anyone else goes along with meI have an extreme aversion to organized religion, and organized groups of people in general. I hate clubs, I hate themes, I was a pathological floater in high school and remain so to this day. I dislike being told what to do so much that there is a part of me that desperately wants to write every email in brightly colored Comic Sans.
I feel like I need a new title, however, for my belief system, because Atheism is becoming a little too close to an organized religion. There are atheist churches, people handing out atheist pamphlets and evangelizing against belief, people running for office and wearing spaghetti strainers on their heads, and, lately, special atheist holidays.
Earlier today, Lincoln Chaffee, the Governor of Rhode Island, declared May 1st the states Official Day of Reasoncoinciding with the states official Day of Prayer.
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/219390/what-the-hell-do-atheists-need-with-special-atheist-holidays/
ret5hd
(20,512 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)struggle4progress
(118,330 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)Now, there's a holiday I can wholeheartedly support!
cbayer
(146,218 posts)there not needing to be a day that recognizes atheism.
As long as particular religious groups have days of recognition designated, then an atheist day makes sense in the quest to "normalize" atheism.
OTOH, I fully agree with here that "Day of Reason" is a really bad choice. It is insulting to believers and, as she puts it, "smarmy".
DreamGypsy
(2,252 posts)...but I perceive the real message to be (emphasis mine):
The Day of Reasoning declaration came in response to requests by the Humanists of Rhode Island and the Secular Coalition for Rhode Island, hoping for non-believers to be recognized along with people who participate in the Day of Prayer. My personal preference would be to have neither.
This is not to criticize Chaffee for doing this. In fact, I will gladly raise a glass of coffee milk to him for doing so. A governor should strive to represent all people. My issue is more with Atheists who are looking to be treated as an organized religion or to make religious people feel less than.
<snip>
It is not the governments job to validate my beliefs, or anyone elses. Who needs that? What kind of person needs a stamp of approval on their belief system?
Wouldnt it be nice if we could all just go about our business, go to church, not go to church, believe in god, not believe in god, without the government being involved in any way whatsoever? What do they need to be there for? God, not-God, whatever, has exactly zero place in the public sphere. We cant complain about religious people wanting to insert religion into state affairs if we try to do the same thing.
I agree thoroughly with the remarks that I highlighted
... and the tone of her message was at least entertaining.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)But I doubt that we can eliminate all those special days that are designated by one part of the government or another, so I would still support being as inclusive as possible.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)Why should believers think that the observance is intended to exclude them? In fact, it's far less exclusionary than Day of Prayer.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)And how would it be less "adversarial" than the day of prayer?
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)On more thought, I meant exclusionary and edited to say so.
I will be reflecting on the many benefits reliance on reason has brought to our modern society. I will contemplate how advancing reason might be of further benefit to us. I won't be praying, but if you wish to do so prayerfully, please do.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)participate in.
But how would that be different than the already designated days for scientifically based groups?
What do you think about the author's objections to using the word reason? FWIW, I think she makes a really good argument for why that is a bad choice of words, but I am not able to come up with what would be a better alternative.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)It is not my opinion that all believers are unreasonable. In fact, I will go so far as to say all believers are reasonable in at least some arenas of thought. But there is no other word that should replace Reason.
I don't believe in the efficacy of prayer. A believer does. However, we can both can acknowledge the efficacy of reason. If a Christian believes that Day of Reason excludes them, more's the pity.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I read her objections as against organized atheism in general, against having these kinds of days for anything and the word "Reason".
A case can be made (as she does) that "Reason" implies that that those that pray are "unreasonable", as the two days will apparently coincide. It might have been better placed on a different day with some recognition that one can be both religious and secular.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)By juxtaposing the Day of Reason with the Day of Prayer, we are all included. Religious believers have their day. Why cannot a more inclusive concept be observed on the same day? Because believers might take it badly? Let me apologize now to all who may have their feelings hurt by the observance of reason.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)recognize believers.
I'm ambivalent about it being on the same day as the day of prayer though.
On the one hand, I think that may provide an opportunity to create something that is very inclusive and includes those of many faiths as well as non-believers. That would be great.
On the other, though, I still find the "reason" label problematic if it is being offered as an alternative to religion, as opposed to something distinct and more inclusive.
Why do you keep taking the position that some religious people are all bent out of shape about this? Have you seen something to support that?
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)The Day of Reason is exclusionary only to the extent that the faithful find their faith to be unreasonable. And I realize that there are people of faith who do, at least in some sense.
Prayer can result in good things internal to the pray-er. I am not opposed to it on principle. I am opposed to our Federal or State Government taking a stand in favor of faith or prayer. That intrinsically places the minority of unbelievers in the status of secondary and less than. That cannot be, reasonably, a good thing.
I'll take back the Day of Reason in exchange for the Day of Prayer, if people of faith find reason to be offensive to their faith.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I am also opposed to the state taking a position on prayer and opposed to them endorsing particular days for religion.
Again, I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that there is offense being taken. Is that just a presumption on your part?
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)why, if not fear of offense taken?
We should find another word than "reason" because ...
why, if not fear of offense taken?
Neither of these objections are valid except for fear of offense, as far as I can tell.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)If you are saying that I am the one offended, you are incorrect.
My objection to the use of the word reason was only if it were being used to indicate that another POV might represent "unreason", similar to the author's objection.
And I can see and have voiced positive reasons for having it on the same day.
None of this is based on fear of offense.
I ask for the final time whether this is an assumption or whether you have seen something that indicates that people are offended by this?
Perhaps you are becoming defensive when there is no need to?
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)In fact, as I was writing, I also kept in mind that you have taken pains to describe your neutral position on matters of faith. I was speaking to the objections and reservations that you voiced. Nowhere did I say that reason is or should be offensive to anyone. I always spoke to the possibility that it might be. Always the if.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I really look forward to the "normalization" of non-belief and I think we are on our way.
It's been a rough road at times and I try to remind myself frequently that non-believers experience some very significant prejudice and outright bigotry in some areas.
You may be correct that there will be objections to this governor's actions, but I hope that there will not be.
struggle4progress
(118,330 posts)and Lobachevsky! and Gauss! and Galois! and Dirichlet! and Dedekind! and Cantor! and Hilbert! and many others!
Put a blackboard in your boat, buy some chalk, and learn more geometry and algebra! Make models of nonconvex polyhedra as Christmas and birthday presents! Program your computer to test various algorithms to factor large numbers!
The possibilities are endless!
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Just reading your post made my head hurt.
struggle4progress
(118,330 posts)with gift-wrapped books on spherical trigonometry and navigation for the holiday: it won't occur more than once a year
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I've got it down to the point where it is almost perfect. Just ask my husband.
struggle4progress
(118,330 posts)George Bernard Shaw
Man and Superman
cbayer
(146,218 posts)and I like the full quote even better.
GOPee
(58 posts).. and let others do the same, life is much too short. But that is just me..
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I tend to agree with you. Unless someone is infringing on the rights of others, what they believe is not for me to judge.
GOPee
(58 posts)I read this forum several times a day and mostly agree or at least enjoy the back and forth.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)debating/discussing "styles".
Hope you enjoy yourself.
GOPee
(58 posts)My religious beliefs are what I call "Customized". Raised Catholic, and divorced, both husband and the church.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)and that's just fine by me.
The_Commonist
(2,518 posts)"I hate clubs, I hate themes, I was a pathological floater in high school and remain so to this day."
Yeah, well not everyone is like you, lady. Some people ENJOY getting together with other, you know, human beings.
My favorite, and personal working definition of "religion" is "a group of people who share the same view of how the universe functions gathering together in congregation to discuss and/or celebrate their shared view of how the universe functions."
Maybe people (like me?) who don't subscribe to the Judeo/Christian/Islamic or Hindu or Buddhist or whatever view of how the universe functions enjoy "gathering together in congregation to discuss and/or celebrate their shared view of how the universe functions." Maybe we don't all hate clubs or themes, and maybe some people think that Pi Day or whatever is a lot of fun.
I get the feeling that this person just felt like bitching about something yesterday. We all have days like that.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)I repeat FFS
cbayer
(146,218 posts)of special religious days.
I would also be in favor of eliminating most, if not all, of the recognition of special secular days.
But until that happens, I think inclusivity is the way to go.
We are going to run out of days, then what will happen, lol?
SevenSixtyTwo
(255 posts)Is my heathen holiday. I don't need a holiday for something I don't believe in. Hell, we still have Christmas for that.
Mr.Bill
(24,317 posts)Unless there's a game on.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)Since the National Day of Prayer has become something of a political observance, as we dutifully watch a President and other political leaders observe. The National Day of Reason has an important place in our culture.
Robyn can shut up about disorganizing the atheist presence in our society. We've had far enough of that for far long enough.
goldent
(1,582 posts)and non-religious alike. Win-win!
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)364 days (or 365 every leap year) we are awash in unreason.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)Then again, I have a fondness for irony. Her phobia of groups guides her thinking as much as your faith does yours Rug. A thorough reading of the OT shows the goat-herders that wrote had a similar phobia for cities. They were equally nasty about them as the article's author is to groups & atheists who choose to share a fellowship with like minded souls.
Funny and a bit pathetic at the same time but that's irony for ya.
Julie
rug
(82,333 posts)MellowDem
(5,018 posts)It's not an atheist holiday, it's a day to fight all sorts of irrational ideas and beliefs, which permeate the population and cause untold suffering.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)It's about promoting something.
Maybe you should propose to the governor of your state a "Day of Fighting the Irrational".
I bet that would go over great.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Promoting reason is fighting irrationality.
You seem upset for some reason by that idea.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)You are on a personal crusade. Although you are not the only one on it to be sure, I am very glad that the group is relatively small and marginalized for the most part.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)to rationalize your dissonance. You're very good at that.
There's nothing wrong with fighting irrationality. You can't even put your finger down on what you find disagreeable.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)If your attitude and approach towards others is representative of the kind of imaginary world we will be living in when you finally eliminate all religion, you can keep it. I don't want any part of it.
Is my finger down on that clearly enough for you?
The dissonance is entirely yours.
I really try not to do this, but you have stepped over the line way too many times. If I didn't know better, I might think you were a Poe.
Sayonara.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)I say fighting irrationality is a good thing and I'm stepping over a line? Do you even know why you're offended? Can you not put it into words? I don't think you can because you don't have any reasoning behind it. Your posts are generally nothing but red herrings and ad hominems, you almost never address the subject at hand.
stone space
(6,498 posts)I kind of like PI Day.
And not just because it happens to fall on my Birthday.
longship
(40,416 posts)That's the day after my birthday.
I always celebrate Mole Day, October 23rd. I open a beer at precisely two minutes past six in the AM (local time). Then I stay home for the rest of the day and watch 1950's SciFi.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)Technically, my birthday is June 27, just like my twin sister. But as a physics major I observed that Pi is almost always multiplied by two in equations. No accident there since a full circle is 2*pi radians and many things in physics have spherical symmetry.
I am neutral on tau advocacy. It seems silly actually. But it is still fun to consider how geometry class would go without Pi.
Plus, without it one could not tell the joke...
Pi R Squared!
Nope! Pie aren't square. Pie are round.