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trotsky

(49,533 posts)
Tue May 20, 2014, 03:30 PM May 2014

Is The Future Of Catholicism Protestantism? I Hope So

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/inebriateme/2014/05/is-the-future-of-catholicism-protestantism-i-hope-so/

Vatican II is in the Church’s past, but also, obviously, in the Church’s present and its future. Most debates within Catholicism today are really debates about the interpretation of Vatican II, and Vatican II was, very much, a Protestantization of Catholicism. This is something Catholics will never say in polite company because it sounds like they’re validating the anti-Vatican II story about the Council, but let me say as a “Vatican II Catholic”–it’s true! Vatican II made Catholicism more Protestant, and we can see that it is good. Maybe not an unalloyed good–I think that, quite involuntarily, many liturgical choices added up to a dramatic pastoral weakening of the doctrine of the Real Presence–but on the whole, a great and necessary good.

Let me say it: Protestant Catholicism is true Catholicism. It’s a common dig against Protestants to say that they define themselves as being “anti-” (my friend Sam Rocha‘s line: “Protestants protest at being called Protestants”), but in many ways so did Counter-Reformation Catholicism. Protestants think salvation is all about faith and not good works? Then it must be all about good works! Protestants think the Eucharist is a meal and not a sacrifice? Then it must be only a sacrifice! Protestants don’t like Mary-talk? Let’s never stop talking about Mary. This is a caricature, of course.


Many of the major Protestant sects have made far more progress on the social front than Catholicism, so let's hope this can be a force to steer the RCC away from bringing so much suffering to others.
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Is The Future Of Catholicism Protestantism? I Hope So (Original Post) trotsky May 2014 OP
That's a very good article. rug May 2014 #1
What Luther got right is what the other Christians sects got wrong. Dawson Leery May 2014 #2
That wasn't Luther's position at all. Act_of_Reparation May 2014 #3
I was talking about novena prayers, the rosary, and veneration of Mary. Dawson Leery May 2014 #4
To Martin Luther the bread and the wine were the Body and Blood of Christ. Leontius May 2014 #5
Luther and Zwingli almost came to blows over that. rug May 2014 #6
And to the first Anglicans, okasha May 2014 #11
The Methodists as well. Leontius May 2014 #12
Yes, he did eliminate a few longstanding Catholic traditions... Act_of_Reparation May 2014 #7
Whatever. Communion is what it is all about. kwassa May 2014 #8
That would be your belief. Act_of_Reparation May 2014 #9
Of course. But Communion is the essential first practice. kwassa May 2014 #10
Which one? mmonk May 2014 #13
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
1. That's a very good article.
Tue May 20, 2014, 04:01 PM
May 2014

I do think you missed the point though. It suggests far more about doctrine than it does than it does about the "social front". Aside from its sexual doctrine, which is significant, the RCC has generally ben far more progressive on social justice issues, especially economic issues.

Dawson Leery

(19,348 posts)
2. What Luther got right is what the other Christians sects got wrong.
Tue May 20, 2014, 04:31 PM
May 2014

Being Christian is about how you live, not ritual.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
3. That wasn't Luther's position at all.
Tue May 20, 2014, 05:10 PM
May 2014

Luther believed in salvation through faith alone, and that good works were the fruit of good faith. In other words, it isn't what you do that makes you a good Christian, but what you believe. The good things you do are an emergent property of that faith.

Dawson Leery

(19,348 posts)
4. I was talking about novena prayers, the rosary, and veneration of Mary.
Tue May 20, 2014, 05:38 PM
May 2014

Don't forget indulgences and the absurdity knows as "Transubstantiation" (which the bread and wine given during communion turn into the body of Christ .

These items of nonsense were added by the Emperor Constantine and his successors.

These were inventions of the early Roman Catholic Church.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
7. Yes, he did eliminate a few longstanding Catholic traditions...
Tue May 20, 2014, 08:26 PM
May 2014

...but he didn't eliminate ritual, and he certainly didn't emphasize good behavior.

And, as an aside, Luther subscribed to the idea of consubstantiation. Instead of believing in the literal transformation of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, he believed that the bread and wine became body and blood while remaining bread and wine, that they existed alongside each other. I find this only minutely less absurd than transubstantiation.

kwassa

(23,340 posts)
8. Whatever. Communion is what it is all about.
Tue May 20, 2014, 11:17 PM
May 2014

The concept behind communion is taking God within, through ingestion of the body and blood, symbolically . Additional symbolism is the table where all share in the experience of being in God together, and where community is nurtured.

Both concepts are excellent.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
9. That would be your belief.
Tue May 20, 2014, 11:25 PM
May 2014

Across the history of Christianity and the myriad extant sects of the religion, YMMV.

kwassa

(23,340 posts)
10. Of course. But Communion is the essential first practice.
Tue May 20, 2014, 11:33 PM
May 2014

In the Catholic church, and the Episcopal church, and the more diffused versions of this in different Protestant churches.

Re-enactment of Jesus at the Last Supper, a Jewish seder.

Historically, this is the origin, and the central spiritual practice.

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
13. Which one?
Mon May 26, 2014, 09:11 PM
May 2014

And a lot of Protestant denominations from my neck of woods aren't enlightened. Just a few are.

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