Moses himself they say, moreover, never actually entered the promised land himself; he just viewed it from a neighboring mountain.

Some kind of sin in Moses?

After that, Israel and Judah were overrun by about a dozen major empires. Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians c. 722 BC? Judah by the Babylonians, c. 586? For only rather short periods were they relatively independent. In the time of Alexander, they were ruled mostly by Greece, the Ptolmaics? In the time of Jesus, by Rome.

Meanwhile we are all waiting for 3,000 years for a real eternal Jewish kingdom, "soon."

St. Peter was to assure us that "soon" might mean millions of years. (If a day for God can be a year; then a few years is ... millions of years).

Would have to consult a map of the area in the time after Alexander.

early it's Agrippa's lands, then it's Selucids, then it Ptolemy's then none of them. The borders changed a lot over time, until the Romans came in.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Sinai for a write-up.

Of course, the real answer is "nobody knows".

you answered that earnestly, so I'm going to drop the snark going forward.

But it doesn't make sense that the Jews, fleeing full might of the Egyptian army, would have detoured there; the most direct route out of Egypt and into the Near East cuts across the northern extent of the Peninsula into modern-day Gaza.

I agree, highly unlikely the mountain commonly specified with that name on modern maps could have been the one referenced in the bible.

Then again, the biblical account of the exodus squares with very little evidence at all.

...I was trying to clarify your question for people who may not be all that familiar with Egyptian geography or the myriad historical and geographical problems with Exodus. The lack of clarity on my part is due to my failure to adequately caffeinate prior to posting

If I had to make an amateurish stab at it, I would say that the early Jews probably knew of Mount Sinai, but probably had no fucking idea where, exactly, it was (remember: there is no evidence they were ever enslaved by the Egyptians, and there is no reason to suspect those who wrote Exodus had ever been there). If, in some alternate universe, the bad guys of the Exodus tale had been Greeks, likely the narrative would have taken the Jews to Mount Olympus (in the north of Greece) on their way to Palestine (to the southeast of Greece).

Thanks for elaborating. I was not verbose, that's for sure.

The educational elements are much appreciated. Thank you. I love the invitation into a hidden sacred space, for a brief peek, leading to more love and understanding.

and that Moses actually existed?

I accept that Moses was a person.

Which has what to do with the post?

If not then my question isn't pertinent.

BTW: There is no evidence for the events in Exodus and most likely a co-opted Babylonian myth.

it's probably a half-remembered and considerably adapted account of the expulsion of the Canaanite Hyksos from Lower Egypt by the Tao dynasty.

One of the more interesting aspects is that "Moses" is an Egyptian name, or rather half a name. It's usually preceded by the name of a god (Ramose/Ramses, eg.) but that part has been dropped. There was once considerable speculation that Jewish monotheism was inspired by the religious reforms instituted by Akhenaten, and that Moses' original name may have been Atenmose, but that's pretty much gone by the scholarly wayside.

interesting, another theory for the story's origin as with the Babylonian myths and others.

Either way, the whole Exodus story of slavery and plagues is spurious. I just find it incredulous that anybody would accept the biblical version of Moses.

with plagues and burning bushes and all?

of historical evidence says it did not occur?

Are you saying you are choosing your faith over facts?

It says there is no proof it happened.

The lack of the Egyptians noting any of the events (and they wrote about everything) and what is known about the early history of the Hebrew people all point to this not happening. That together with the illogical supernatural nature of many of the events make it's designation as a myth or tale and not a real event. It's not just that there is no proof, it's that all evidence says it did not happen. We should no more believe this than we should believe in the Flood or Adam and Eve or that the earth is 6000 years old.
You are following your faith in the face of all countermanding evidence and with not a single piece to confirm it.

And there will never be 100% proof it did not happen.

there is zero evidence that it did. Zero.
For something to even be considered, there should be some evidence for it. And when all evidence is against it, actual evidence that points to it not happening, not just the absence of evidence, it becomes improbable.
Is there any difference between what you are doing here and Creationist or Climate change deniers.

I am aware there is no evidence but I am not going to give up my belief.

I am sorry for your ignorance.

Have a good night anyway.

need to call a difference of opinion "ignorance." Not all scholars agree on these issue.

as they are portrayed in the Bible? Because this isn't about the possibility of some historical figure that might have loosely been a part of the Moses myth as you speculated earlier.

Or do you also thin that the lack of 100% proof that they didn't happen means that there is a good chance they did.

It's no more a difference of opinion than creationism or a geocentric solar system are opinions.

But my faith hurts no one.

but I accept it.
my reply #35 was to okasha and not you.

Thanks.

If, that is, you're talking about the departure or flight into Canaan by people of Canaanite ancestry. She also believes that they may have had a heroic leader who is commemorated as the Moses of Exodus.

This seems an appropriate moment to point out that categorical pronouncements that a given narrative is "just a myth" can come back to bite the pronouncers. Troy was supposefly mythical, but we can walk among its ruins today. Most scholars now agree that King Arthur ( or "an Arthur-like figure" as Geoffrey Ashe puts it-- governed at least Western Briitain and repelled Saxon invaders for a generation, with his headquarters at Cadbury Hill. The James ossuary turns out not to be a forgery, so there may in fact be inscriptional evidence for the existence of Jesus.

It can be quite embarrassing, but our ancestors were generally smarter and more knowledgeable than we give them credit for.

exactly, detail for detail, as the narrative appears in Exodus?

Then no, but bear in mind that there is historical controversy and dissent by historians about events that happened less than ten years ago, let alone what happened over a millennium ago. Why, there are posters right here on DU who think "Bronze-Age goatherders" composed the Torah.

this was a discussion about the biblical account of the Bible.
To use your comparisons. Knowing there was a Troy doesn't mean Achilles fought there and Odysseus built a horse to invade it.
The real Arthur, the 5th Century leader of some Britons, doesn't mean we should accept Camelot and the armored knights of the Round Table as real.

And let's not talk about detail for detail, can any of it be seen a real as portrayed, the brutal slavery building the temples (not accurate of Egypt) the ten plagues, the Red Sea, the burning bush. Moses writing the Torah, the 40 years of wandering, etc...

I think it can be said with a fair amount of confidence that the Moses of the Bible is a myth.

And to state that no amount of evidence contrary to that will shake someone's faith in the story as real, is willful ignorance.
So I will stick with my posts here.

I think the story of the Exodus is part allegory and part fact.

The historical record indicates that the Habiru were captives in Egypt within reasonable historical reach of the placement of the Moses and Exodus story.

Historical record shows that many of the Habiru left Egypt at about the same time.

There is nothing in actual historical record, of which I am aware, that confirms the Moses story.

But why is that important? The Torah/Bible is about how God manifests his love for his people. It doesn't have to be in terms of physical/historical fact. In fact what is more powerful is how he moves people in their minds and hearts.

Who slaughtered the first born innocent children of Egypt . That God of love? The one who condemned people to the third generation, that one?
Think I'll pass on his love for a select group of people.

I have a bit of the social anthropologist in my being and an abiding curiosity about closed cultures.

I don't have cable but I watch Gypsy Sisters and My big fat American Gypsy Wedding for the same reason. I'm not a part of that lifestyle and would never be invited in so I get my voyeur on, where I can.

I'm a snoop.

I'm interested in the goofy bullshit people believed in.

I have to say I am disappointed but not surprised.

wandering around and the assembly at mt Sinai where the torah magically shows up. We know from analysis that the torah is written not by one author, moses via god, but is the work of several authors over multiple centuries. Shavuot is, not surprisingly, a myth, a made up story, not true, bullshit, and somewhat goofy. Certainly it is not nearly as goofy as other stories in the bible, many of which are preposterously or horrifically goofy, but still goofy.

And yes I know that this is not a safe haven.

If you find some of my beliefs to be goofy bullshit please let me know. I prefer to rid myself of nonsense beliefs rather than clinging to them out of habit or thoughtlessness.

in which the angry god gets pissed off at his flock and demands that the tribe of Levi slaughter all of the people, men women and children, worshipping the wrong way, and that is what happens. Then another ten commandments are created (moses smashed the first set because of this badness with the calf,) and the survivors, cowering in fear no doubt, proceed to worship their psychotic god the right way.

What do you think? Fairy Tale? Metaphor? Total bullshit?

Yes I know there is no proof and it is not scientific but I choose to believe it.

wrong way?

Why? What sort of god is that?

This is why I prefer the OT view of God.

Remember that these are stories of how these people viewed their God and what they thought God wanted of them.

You seem to be waffling a bit on that.

You also seem to be claiming that the OT god and the NT god are different gods.

The OT god is the same as the NT god, and the OT god is on record as doing a whole lot of really horrible things that you believe happened, but all that stopped with the NT god, but only because the authors of the NT stopped writing god up for his awful actions? So basically the NT version has better PR?

All right.

And he's held up as a noble biblical character?

Yowza.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the congregation went to meet them outside the camp. Moses became angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, who had come from service in the war. Moses said to them, 'Have you allowed the women to live? These women here, on Balaam's advice, made the Israelites act treacherously against the LORD in the affair of Peor, so that the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves."

Numbers 31:13-18

goofy bullshit than "Ascension Thursday" (the major Xstian holiday you felt deserved its own OP)? Or are Christianity and its "days" special in a way that no other religion is?

This book takes the view that Moses did not exist. The book asserts that the Torah was written around the fifth century BC and that its writers based its Moses figure on older writings describing the Greek god Dionysus, the Akkadian king Sargon who conquered much of Mesopotamia, and the Mesopotamian demigod Gilgamesh.



http://www.amazon.com/Moses-Exist-Myth-Israelite-Lawgiver/dp/0979963184/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402006198&sr=8-1&keywords=did+moses+exist

The author claims that she has reading-level abilities in some ancient languages and has consulted the oldest sources available to her in translating the writings contained in ancient scrolls and codices.

I first became interested in the theory that Moses is a fictional figure when I was working on my undergraduate degree at a fundamentalist Reformed Presbyterian college back in the 1970s. The syllabus to one of the humanities courses presented "Mises" as a mythological figure who was written about in ancient times. In her discussion on Mises in her book "Did Moses Exist?" its author D.M. Murdock includes the following paragraph:

Glad you enjoyed it.

Murdock is a total fraud. Her sole scholarly credential is a BA in classics.

Approach with caution.

If you do not agree with her conclusions, that is your choice. She relates histories of ancient peoples and cultures with the depth of knowledge equivalent to that of holders of Ph.D degrees.

I am learning a good deal of history from her book "Did Moses Exist?"

but having read "numerous ancient works" doesn't qualify her as a legitimate scholar. I've had sophomore survey-of-literature students who did better research than Murdock.

Until you students write books detailing the history of the ancient eastern Mediterranean region, I will regard D.M. Murdock's book "Did Moses Exist?" as my favorite on the subject.

Just be aware that the person who wrote them is neither a qualified linguist, nor a qualified historian, nor qualified archaeologist. Nor has she ever published a peer-reviewed article in any scholarly journal.

And, for years, I have known what her academic degree is, and I have known that she has not authored any articles appearing in any journal published by any society of archaeology, history or linguistics.

I believe that her "Did Moses Exist Book?" stands as a testament to her deep understanding of the subject matter and proves that she is not a "total fraud."

Carry on.

Nice and nuked.

That is why I think it was a sock. I sent a note to the admins through my thread in mirt to check it out.

I think that was its second post.

holes in the heel.