Religion
Related: About this forumIs our anger as atheists invalid?
1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
9. The group/leader is always right.
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
http://www.culteducation.com/warningsigns.html
Growing up Mormon, a lot of these signs were there, but there wasn't anyone to point them out to me; I had to find them on my own. Perhaps if someone was around to educate me earlier, I'd have been spared some of the abuse that controlling cults like Mormonism subject its members to. The hurt that the Mormon church caused was deep and devastating for me, and there are others here that have had similar experiences with other religions (even mainstream religions). It was a decades-long battle to extricate myself from the grips of belief, so for someone to dismiss my anger as if it wasn't formed via real experiences is a giant middle finger.
Many of the believers here honestly find value in their belief - as a former believer, I get it. But for those of us who didn't find value, and were abused by religion and/or the religious, don't try to minimize our pain or anger. It feeds the same abusive cycle that tore many of our lives apart during the original journey from belief to non-belief. You wouldn't tell a gay man or an African American to drop their anger at a system that treats and treated them badly, so why would you do the same thing to an atheist?
On Edit: for those on my Ignore list - you won't be getting a response from me. The post itself should give you a good idea why.
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rug
(82,333 posts)"our anger as atheists"
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Others have entirely different reactions for entirely different reasons.
That really doesn't answer the question.
It is disingenuous to couch one's own thoughts as if they are those of others.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)And there's no doubt; many (if not all) atheists do feel anger as persecution. Clearly the author himself felt that way.
Invalid semantic games to try to obscure that, doesn't make it any better, either.
Religious apologists were and still are always the very worst examples of semantic word gamesmanship, by the way.
rug
(82,333 posts)
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Are you an atheist?
rug
(82,333 posts)Are you stepping up to answer for atheists?
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)I'm not the one claiming to not speak for a group, while simultaneously attempting to speak for a group I'm not part of (unless you actually are an atheist, don't worry, I know you never answer a question, ever, even simple yes/no questions)
rug
(82,333 posts)He gave a distraught apologia as to why he is an atheist.
He then proceeded to transmute it into "our anger".
The question stands.
As to your question of me, the answer is hell, no.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)Well, maybe, since I can't be sure.
rug
(82,333 posts)Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)I will not attempt to answer for the OP, but I will answer for me and many atheists that I know.
The OP is talking about us. I have other reasons for being angry than the ones listed in the OP, although those issues do upset me. I am angry that churches pay no taxes, so we all have to shoulder higher rates because of this. If they would only be exempt for the charitable endeavors, that would be fine, but that isn't how it works. I am angry that religious people think that everyone should think and believe like they do, and don't want to keep their beliefs inside their churches and their homes. They keep pushing it on all of us. Prayers at public meetings, trying to put god back in schools, forcing employees to live under their beliefs....all of these things make me angry. And I am not alone.
This doesn't even scratch the surface of the things that anger me about religion, and I mean all religions because they are all the same to me, even though the believers are willing to fight each other over which one is the true one. Wars, prejudice, excuses for abuse. I am angry that believers don't just keep their faith under a basket instead of trying to push it on the world.
That is my answer about who the OP is speaking for. Call me a weasel but I have had my say.
rug
(82,333 posts)Ignore doesn't immunize anyone from being called on the crap they post.
And surrogates don't cut it.
As to your particular response, "just keep their faith under a basket" is simply an attempt to conjure the ignore button into reality. Along with a tinge of authoritarianism and intolerance
There is no reason for anyone to keep their opinions, including religious beliefs, "under a basket". I can't say I'm unsurprised that anyone who embraces ignore also wishes to keep beliefs hidden from view.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Example: a Republican might say "our anger as Americans is that more people don't vote Republican." This kind of remark does not necessarily mean that all Americans are angry.
rug
(82,333 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Playing semantic tricks is the favorite device of religious persons, when the logic of their arguments fails.
This is a dishonest trick; typical of lawyers and theologians; sophistry.
In this particular case, by the way? The question is not really how many; it is enough to say "some." While several here have seconded the author's opinion.
That being the case, there are enough persons, atheists, in the state of mind described by the author, to say this topic has deserved the serious consideration - that Rug is so obviously desperate to thwart.
rug
(82,333 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)The question is to derail a discussion of the content.
rug
(82,333 posts)Since he purports to catalog the angst suffered by them - and him - the question goes right to his subject.
Unless he thinks he's on Oprah.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Many atheists here in fact.
So are they insignificant?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)you are making here.
It is clear that some non-believers are angry and it is clear that many have reasons to be angry. They are not at all insignificant and their anger should be acknowledged, explored and taken seriously.
However, they represent a small group, imo. Although I don't have data, I would propose that most non-believers are not angry at all. Those that are are do participate here disproportionately however, which is not surprising.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Last edited Sat Jul 19, 2014, 04:41 AM - Edit history (1)
The idea was that Man creates his own destiny. In a real material world. Spirits and gods and the Divine Right of Kings were regarded as phantom illusions.
The theory of Marxism, Communism, was that it was not our rulers, but was ordinary working people, really create goods and services and wealth; they work hard with their hands, and make things. In contrast, kings, lords, just take the credit, and take the profits, the goods, for themselves.
Then, to get away with this, the lords, kings, tell the people that there is an invisible "god" or lord that commands this. God commands us to be obedient, meek and mild, in general. And then to "obey your governors"; even "slaves, obey your masters." If this seems unjust, Marxist atheists added that Christianity made up a lie: to tell the exploited workers that even if they died young of poverty and starvation, God said that was good. Because they had given their lives to submission. And then too? Maybe such casualties would get a high reward after they were dead, in "heaven."
So Marxists, communists, believed that religion was a lie. A lie designed by human lords, to fool the workers. And to endlessly exploit them.
For this reason, most communists were atheists. And they were extremely angry at the lords, at religion, for this deception and exploitation. They were angry to the point that they physically rebelled against their Christian rulers, in a series of violent wars or revolutions. Including the Communist Revolution in Russia in 1917. Then the revolution in China, in the 1930's. Then in a series of wars around the whole world.
It is odd and ironic that Rug, whose avatar is Karl Marx, does not know this. Does not know who, which atheists were angry. Apparently Rug's public image is not quite accurate. Or is even some kind of deception, itself. If Rug was a good Marxist or communist, he would know this: these things are the central principles of Marxism/Leninism.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)who are atheists and feel anger related to that atheism. The OP goes on to clarify even farther the referenced anger, more clearly delineating the parameters of the group for which s/he believes to speak.
Now, see, those who aren't atheists and/or who don't feel anger related to that atheism for reasons the same as or similar to those presented in the OP, they would not be those for whom the OP speaks. Also, it seems unlikely that EvolveOrConvolve means to speak for anyone who does not wish to be spoken for.
As to your later expressed confusion revealed thusly,"And many neither accept your premise nor feel anger. Others have entirely different reactions for entirely different reasons," see the above paragraph.
rug
(82,333 posts)
delrem
(9,688 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 14, 2014, 01:35 PM - Edit history (2)
By the way, coincidentally, the NSA's huge new complex is right next to a Mormon compound (in AZ?).
delrem
(9,688 posts)truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Except to... you know.. the rest of the government and the elected officials that oversee the group. You can argue that oversight is incompetent or misguided or ineffective, but it's there. And if you want to argue any of those above things the fault would be with those responsible for that oversight would it not?
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
By this I assume you mean "no willingness to accommodate our desires that they just declassify all their classified material so everyone in the country can all look at it"
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
Last I checked Congress set the NSA budget and audited it's expenditures.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
More accurately, vast swaths of Americans have that fear, which drives them to vote for people who pander to it (woo, Patriot Act, we're sooooo much safer now...), who then set the mission parameters for the intelligence community.
But yes, that fear and paranoia *also* exist in that community... so you could mark down one here. Although technically that's also kind of their job.
5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
And by this I assume you're talking about people who leave with classified materials illegally secreted upon their persons, and thus there's no legitimate reason to commit a felony, flee the agency, and then disseminate those materials to, say, the Chinese media?
On the other hand there are HORDES of ex employees of the NSA who were allowed to leave just fine while not trying to steal classified materials.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
See above.
8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
???
9. The group/leader is always right.
Pretty sure that's anathema to intelligence operations, in which you are NEVER supposed to assume your results are infallible and always look for worst case scenarios of what happens if your analysis is screwed up or your data is inaccurate. You may be confusing the Intel community with, say, how the Bush administration referred to and employed the Intel community's findings.
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
I have never heard that the director of the NSA was the sole source of all intelligence, and all the analysts and operatives employed there were getting their information from them and not the other way around. That's remarkable! How does one guy manage all that?
delrem
(9,688 posts)there are rebuttals (e.g. Clapper lied, and got away with it).
But I'm letting this discussion fade away.
g'day.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)If "a person lied and got away with it" was grounds for claiming, and I quote, "Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability." then absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability would be our universal reality.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Maybe you can come up with another 10 "differences".
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Second, you referred to "starting with number 1" on that list and provided the fact that one guy lied and got away with it as some kind of corroborating data. Number 1 on that list was as I quoted. I assumed you were aware of what item number 1 actually said if you were referring to it. Clearly my bad.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Obviously I did mean that the NSA and the Mormon Church were identical in all aspects.
After all, this is a political message board and the stone-cold stupidest interpretation is always correct.
Good on ya!
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)I pointed out, item by item, that the list DID NOT AT ALL describe the NSA. You proceeded to deal with not a single one of those points except making one clearly silly comment about the first one, and now you're in a huff and trying to get around the situation by pretending like I somehow totally misinterpreted what you were saying, instead of just admitting that you really didn;t think the issue through... and were wrong.
Htom Sirveaux
(1,242 posts)invalidate your anger or pain?
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)The underlying implication of your question being that there isn't really something that invalidates the anger and pain - like it's imagined or imaginary and I'm really just "angry at god". You want me to find something so you can tell me how it shouldn't make me angry. I quit playing that game a long time ago for the reasons in the OP.
Htom Sirveaux
(1,242 posts)But whatever, man.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)the main one being questions like the one you asked are often Trojans, designed to sound innocent, but really draw out something so they can invalidate it.
Htom Sirveaux
(1,242 posts)I'm happy to validate anger at abuses by religious institutions. I share that anger.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)I should duck when I see it coming. From my point-of-view, you were swinging for the fences.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Tone trolling is officially approved in this forum by the god squad.
rug
(82,333 posts)Oh, I forgot, hypocrisy.
libodem
(19,288 posts)And if you are angry, you are angry. It's okay. Sometimes the validation makes it easier to let go of the anger and move on. These things heal in stages. It doesn't always stay resolved. I find it comes back up and meet be dealt with when milestones come around.
My friend was Catholic and rebellious from preschool. She still has anger and bitter feelings towards her family and the church.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Yes we as believers must be mindful that many have been hurt by members of our faiths. It is not a sin to question our faith or our leaders.
I would also say that while it is resonable for members here to question our faith here, it is not appropriate to ridicule us for our beliefs.
We must learn to communicate better in this room.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)expresses.
Because it's unkind, contemptuous and juvenile.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)mr blur
(7,753 posts)it would be a full-time job.
Are believers so insecure that they have to be protected against "rudeness"?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Second questioning someone's faith is not rude but belittling that faith is rude.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)cbayer said in the past week or so that her and her husband read the Book of Mormon out loud on a road trip and laughed a great deal. We have Mormons in this group. Only atheists told her that was inappropriate.
So certainly beliefs as a whole are not protected here. Why should yours get special treatment? Because they are yours? Because they are special?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Only we laughed musc louder. You're a really funny guy at times. 
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)We should make a Crosby/Hope-esque road trip film together.
And I'm not going to be so pedantic as to make fun of you for "musc." Only assholes would do that.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Oh, the umbrage!
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)That in turn is especially serious when that injury by religious leaders regularly included torture and execution of atheists and other nonbelievers, for Heresy.
rug
(82,333 posts)Unless of course anyone posting here has been tortured or survived an execution.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Would that count?
rug
(82,333 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)We could just have easily invoked Christians as offenders, in their wars against Communist Atheists in WW II and the Cold War.
rug
(82,333 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 15, 2014, 12:38 AM - Edit history (1)
distressed by an experience of which you know little. Compassionate people don't dismiss that as "unseemly."
On edit, since okasha pointed out the persecution you were replying to, I'd like to say that you're still wrong, as there is no requirement of torture in persecution (and your response is still sorely lacking in compassion).
persecute
per·se·cute [pur-si-kyoot]
verb (used with object), per·se·cut·ed, per·se·cut·ing.
1. to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment, especially because of religion, race, or beliefs; harass persistently.
2. to annoy or trouble persistently.
Synonyms
1. afflict, torture, torment. 2. worry, badger, vex, bother, pester.
okasha
(11,573 posts)who did make such a claim, not the OP.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Watch out for semantic and logical tricks in believers. That is the favorite way that believers avoid facing their sins. By distancing themselves from them, by verbal tricks and sophistry. One of their favorites is by making what formal Logic calls a "Distinction Without a Difference."
rug
(82,333 posts)Elementary logic begins with understanding likeness and difference.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)More interestingly, 3) even today religious magical thinking disables reason and logic to a degree; and the penalties of many people being relieved of reason are easy to guess at. Such persons also form a hard core of society resistant to atheist or rational reforms and atheists lives, including employment.
rug
(82,333 posts)The answer is you don't.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)So indeed, there are cases where the impositions by believers on nonbelievers are still physically fatal.
rug
(82,333 posts)
Iggo
(47,558 posts)
Warpy
(111,277 posts)but don't throw that ridicule into the faces of believers. hrmjustin is right, that's rude.
That doesn't mean an atheist ever has to validate the opinion of some believer who is trying to redefine us in terms he's more comfortable with. He's just been rude to us and that needs to be pointed out.
edhopper
(33,590 posts)If it's particularly absurd?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)edhopper
(33,590 posts)About aliens trillions of years old who inhabit our souls or that the human species was created by extraterrestrials. That the dinosaurs missed Noah's Ark. That Jesus visited the Native Americans. That medicine is bad and interferes with God's will. That Gay people should be burned alive.
Respect for those (and many other) beliefs.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Violence against others in the name of God must be challenged immediately here. This is a given here.
Challenge all the views you want. You should do it.
I thought we were talking about beliefs in general.
I see your point. But depending on the belief, I think you can ridicule, or at least be sarcastic about a belief if it warrants, without ridiculing by he person.
People claim things all the time on GD that sarcasm is an apt response.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)edhopper
(33,590 posts)How something is said. If a belief or claim is made with a soupçon of condescension, it might deserve ridicule.
I think I have challenged your beliefs often, and hopefully, rarely with ridicule
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)edhopper
(33,590 posts)If just presented in an linked article, would be ridiculed here, with little push back.
The more troublesome situation is ridiculing someone's stated belief.
And it goes without saying that using ridicule isn't confined to only the nonbelievers here.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)edhopper
(33,590 posts)I would say this is an example of a belief worthy of ridicule.
rug
(82,333 posts)edhopper
(33,590 posts)An Ego?
rug
(82,333 posts)edhopper
(33,590 posts)Believers win.
Response to edhopper (Reply #38)
Iggo This message was self-deleted by its author.
Iggo
(47,558 posts)I lost track of who was who for a second.
Warpy
(111,277 posts)I think you'd better rethink that one. Questions are deadly to belief.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)in this forum and you want your precious fairy tales to be treated with respect?
Not likely.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)You never showed it to me so why should I expect it from you.
Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #111)
Curmudgeoness This message was self-deleted by its author.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Everything we post is examined for alertability.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)It rarely goes that way.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)There is so much that goes on in this group, that I know you are not upset by all the back-and-forth....or you wouldn't stay around and post.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)If it's ridiculous.
edhopper
(33,590 posts)the difference between saying "You're stupid to have that belief"
And "that belief is stupid"
I think some don't think there is a difference.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)That's the problem right there.
edhopper
(33,590 posts)thanks.....
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Just kidding, not intending to disparage anyone. 
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)is that sometimes our very presence is considered inappropriate. It's especially bad if we're pointing out some particular absurdity of religion. Even though our thoughts (mostly) target the belief system itself rather than specific believers, it's still seen as as ridicule. I agree that phrases like "sky daddy" or "fairy tales" are probably over the top, but were I to point out the inherent problems with the doctrine of transubstantiation, for example, there will be those that read ridicule into it, treating it the same as those who use "sky daddy" or "fairy tales." If our very opinions are seen as ridicule, what's the motivation to NOT use "sky daddy" or "fairy tales"? We're not taken seriously either way, leading to the situation I describe in the OP.
There's a very specific group of believers here at DU who want to "fix us" - the implication being that we're somehow broken or faulty. Someone starting from that point-of-view is never going to respect non-believers, and probably won't get any respect in return. And don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there aren't non-believers that take the same slant towards believers, because there are. The difference is that it's seen as acceptable for a believer to act that way but not a non-believer. The tone patrol targets only one group of people, and until it stops, there's not likely to be any progress made.
libodem
(19,288 posts)[img]
[/img]
okasha
(11,573 posts)Or maybe a skunk.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Do atheists have a temple?
I am neither a theist nor atheist, I believe in Einstein's God.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)So ....
libodem
(19,288 posts)In a nursing home one of the patient room doors had a wood grain shaped Jesus on it. Pretty accurate. Good hospice room.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)It's the principle of the Rorschach Blot; what you see in it, is often a reflection of your state of mind, rather than what is there. It's a very common psychological principle.
Then taking that as a "miracle" just compounds the error.
libodem
(19,288 posts)Your state of mind and your personal thought process would most certainly color ones perception.
Just as, if someone calls you bad names, it says way more about who they are rather that who you or what you are.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)place.
I don't see what you are describing happening here, but would be glad to have it pointed out. What I see is an objection by those who are not responsible for your pain being made into your punching bags.
What I see is an intolerance of other opinions and POV's as extreme as that you probably experienced. What I see here is those that were formally victimized becoming the victimizers.
I am sorry that you and others were abused by religious groups. I am sorry that you did not have the positive experiences that so many others have had. I hope that we as a team and a group can fight back against the groups that perpetuate this kind of behavior.
I'm not telling you to drop your anger, but I would suggest that you start being more selective at who you aim at it and looking to see if some of those you currently have on your enemies list might actually be your allies.
Unsafe groups and leaders? You need look no further that the group you host to find so many of the things on your list.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Gee where else have I seen that sort of behavior directed at a group here on du?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)SOP
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Watching my neighbors reproduce into poverty, too many mouths to feed, asking their fucking priest 'what they can do to ensure they don't have any more kids'.
One guess as to the answer. Yeah, that makes me angry, seeing people spiral down like that, misled by assholes with no authority whatsoever on the subject.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Magical thinking especially crippled billions, to some degree.
The destruction of the ability to think rationally, logically, takes away from people their most important asset.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)The list you cite applies perfectly to the group that you are now the lead host of. You appear to have directed your anger toward all believers, plus all non-believers who do not share your anger. Such anger can turn you into your own worst enemy.
I am not the first to point this out, but you choose to ignore it. Surrounding yourself with the angry voices of intolerance may bring you some comfort, but is unlikely to be healing. I wish you well and hope your journey leads you to a path of tolerance and openness.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #17)
Post removed
edhopper
(33,590 posts)The post Freudian bullshit.
rexcat
(3,622 posts)On Mon Jul 14, 2014, 11:50 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
Victim blaming? Really?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=139936
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Pure meta attack, from a poster who has had multiple hides for this kind of thing.
JURY RESULTS
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Jul 14, 2014, 12:12 PM, and the Jury voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Looks like a lot of "meta" in this thread. This post doesn't stand out any worse that others here.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Warren S. opened the meta door with the comment about "running in the family." The response is not over the top, even for meta. Besides, there is no rule against it unless it crosses the line into "whining about DU." That said, I think the Karpman Drama Triangle, is over-processed academic mumble-jumble. The reasoning will lead to faulty conclusion, similar to what happened to George Will.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
rug
(82,333 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)What the hell do you think you're doing? Self-delete, for your own sake.
Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #18)
Erich Bloodaxe BSN This message was self-deleted by its author.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)A&A is a very safe group, unless you dare to question certain things, like intolerance of believers. I wouldn't call it a cult. That's your word. And I have no issue with most of the members. The hosts are the problem. Always have been. Independent thought is not allowed. Ridicule of believers is welcomed and applauded. The OP talks about his pain and anger, yet has no qualms about casting out fellow atheists for stepping out of line, while supporting the outrageous behavior of people like laconicsax, the group's former Grand Inquisitor, may she RIP.
Why would I self-delete? Are you threatening me?
Btw, this is the Religion group, where insulting other duers is the norm for many participants, especially the anti-theists. Deal with it, Muriel.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)Some of your hides:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=48496
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=123943
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=59016
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=124676
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=49182
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=119157
Plus posts of your hidden in A&A:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1230&pid=7550
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1230&pid=2771
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1230&pid=8780
You are consistently rude and disruptive.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Thanks for doing the digging. Nice compilation. I hope everyone finds them entertaining.
I stand by them btw. Let me know if you have anything in particular you like to discuss.
Looks like you've chosen the side of intolerance. Enjoy the company.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)Your self-pity threatens to throw the Earth off balance, it's so huge. And you remain proud of insulting DUers. You are making DU suck.
rug
(82,333 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 14, 2014, 11:38 AM - Edit history (1)
He'll live.
ETA: QED
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)The fact that you want to apply the same rules to a minority as you do to the privileged majority says a lot about you.
phil89
(1,043 posts)Why is that a good thing? I don't see that as anger.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)and don't like that their beliefs are challenged in a forum where challenging religious beliefs is expressly permitted and are off on yet another campaign to punish the horrible atheists by ridiculing their "apoplexy" and otherwise tone-policing us.
rug
(82,333 posts)That'll teach 'em!
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I really don't have thin skin anymore here. Not after this room.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Get your story straight.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)fine.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)interfere in the religion group host discussion. You really have no shame. You should study your fairy tales and ask yourself what would your mythical Jesus do.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)list? You are allowed to respond to posts in the host forum even though you may not be a host of the forum or group being discussed.
For transparency sake this is what I posted.
Not a religion host but I say leave.
Also the poster who alerted seems to be posting a lot in it but is trying to shut down debate.
You can dish it out but can't take it Warren.
Funny how you always seem to want to keep posts open in the host forum that are alerted on in gd, but you want to shut down this thread even though you posted a lot in it.
I actually think you are a good host because you want to lock as little as possible. I don't get why you want this locked.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)discussion. it is not gd. It is no concern of yours. It was a dishonest abuse of your host status in an attempt to influence the discussion. Jesus is having a sad justin. You are misbehaving and He is weeping for you.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)We've been told by more than one believer (who were also non-hosts) to stay out of the discussion of Religion group posts in the Hosts forum, even though (hypocritically) s/he was doing the same thing, first. It sorta ruffles the feathers, you know?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)He wants to act like this it only hurts him, not me.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)There's a long history here that you weren't around to witness. It goes back at least 10 years (when I first lurked in the old DU2 Religion and Theology group), so you can't know everything that's gone on.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)the Jedi...
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”
- Yoda
Anger may not be invalid, but it shouldn't be something you hold on to, it should be transitory. It should be processed and transformed into useful action to change the problems that cause fear, anger, hate, suffering.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Jim__
(14,077 posts)EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)You imply that the anger hasn't been processed, and that I've done nothing to ameliorate it, when nothing could be further from the truth. Imagine a rape victim going to an online help-group and being told that the anger was unreasonable. Because that's what's happening to a lot of us here - after being mind-fucked by religion for decades, being told to get over it isn't helpful. In fact, it just adds another link to the chain of abuse.
rug
(82,333 posts)I don't mind people rolling around in the pity bag but this is utterly clueless and repugnant.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)I don't mind people soaking in the self-righteous callousness tub, but this is thoroughly hateful and repugnant.
rug
(82,333 posts)And I reiterate: it's a thoroughly loathsome comparison.
TM99
(8,352 posts)with those who actually hurt you? Sure.
But inappropriate rage displaced on those who did not actually hurt you but only 'remind' you of that hurt? Hell, no.
That is invalid and inappropriate, and sadly, it is way of the internet circa 21st Century.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)And to understand otherwise veiled trends in the present.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)I consider it inconsequential in my life because I am an atheist. I can not sustain anger at something that just plain does not matter to me.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Others can't forget centuries of discrimination. Or the continued damage from religious leaders.
As a very mild current example: it appears that many of the 6 Catholic justices on the US Supreme Court are currently deciding - largely on a religious basis - to restrict abortion, and women's health benefits.
Is this current imposition of a religious view on the lives of many, legitimate and good?
Or consider dozens of others of cases. For example, consider the religious-based wars in the Middle East; are they of no concern?
Any atheist should become aware of the damage that religion has done.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)It's at the way it treated us; the way it abused us, and continues to abuse the ones we love. If the cause for the anger were to go away, we'd be able to heal. Unfortunately for most of us, oppressive & controlling religion is still a big part of our lives because it affects our families, our friends, and our coworkers.
Perhaps you live in a more enlightened area of the country, but where I live atheists are seen as the worst sort of garbage. Worse than rapists or child molesters or thieves. Most of us can't come out of the closet because to do so risks family relationships, friendships, and even our careers. To receive the same treatment from some of the allegedly "Progressive" members of the DU community is disheartening.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)But at least in the end he supported the Greeks.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)I have more FRUSTRATION than anger over the fact so many adults (in important positions) still hold a bunch of ancient superstitions in such high regard. One should really stop believing in magic and spooks by age 12 or so.
Mythology is great fun, can teach you about what it's like to be human a bit, but is nothing to live one's life by.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)I usually try not to think about this topic, but now and then I notice a post come up that reminds me, and occasionally I comment.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)I'm glad that someone gets it - I will continue to hold anger at those who think I should not be angry. Religion did actual, real and lasting harm to me, and I'm not going to put up with other people (at least here at DU) that would marginalize the experiences that led to my journey to atheism.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Many of us were indoctrinated as children, that alone is reason to be angry, angry at anyone that consented to our indoctrination or partook in it. Angry at the mealy mouthed apologists that defend childhood indoctrination to this day.
Anger at the bigoted religious organizations that spread death and misery to this day, and continue to try and restrict the rights of my loved ones and of me. Anger at these organization's many apologists and supporters, who actually identify with these bigoted, hateful belief systems.
Anger at the privilege and arrogance of anyone that gets offended for being called out on supporting and identifying with bigotry, just because it's religion.
And that's just a start.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)and non-religious people do bad things, too, so you've got no right to be angry." Or, there's the, "Other people have been literally tortured. Have you? No, then shut up."
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)The fact that childhood indoctrination in religion is given deference, almost seen as a right, even by many on DU, shows the privilege of religion to this day.
The fact that people, even on DU, positively identify with explicitly bigoted, misogynistic, homophobic belief systems, with explicitly written dogma laying their bigotry out very clearly, and even threads praising the leaders of these bigoted institutions, that's all the power of religious privilege.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)More typically, here on DU, they simply ridicule it.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/
in good company? 
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)You said it better than I ever could. The anger is like a festering sore that never really heals because there's a constant picking at it by the devout.
