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rug

(82,333 posts)
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 12:37 PM Sep 2014

Another week, another atheist demands we call his sexism not-sexism. (This time, Sam Harris.)



(Image via Steve Jurvetson, Creative Commons licensed)

Amanda Marcotte
17 Sep 2014

Another week, another dudely atheist whose supposed rationalism can’t seem to stop him from engaging in emotion-driven temper tantrums because those mean ladies insist you actually apply the same rational lens to sexism as you do religion. This week’s contestant is Sam Harris, who was criticized for suggesting that it’s women’s biological inferiority to men that drives women out of the atheist movement and not, say, the widespread acceptance of sexism that makes women feel unwelcome.

“I think it may have to do with my personal slant as an author, being very critical of bad ideas. This can sound very angry to people..People just don’t like to have their ideas criticized. There’s something about that critical posture that is to some degree instrinsically male and more attractive to guys than to women,” he said. “The atheist variable just has this – it doesn’t obviously have this nurturing, coherence-building extra estrogen vibe that you would want by default if you wanted to attract as many women as men.”

His theory that men are inherently better at being able to take rough-and-tumble criticism and women are inherently reluctant to participate in such a thing was immediately put to the test, as his comments received quite a bit of rough-and-tumble criticism from women who, defying their estrogenic destinies, told him where to shove his gender essentialist ideas. He, in turn, defied his testosteronic heritage by getting his fee-fees hurt. Perhaps it is not true that the “critical posture” is inherently masculine? Could it be possible that the swift hurt of male feelings suggests that women’s “nurturing” stance is a socialized reaction to men’s inability to take criticism of their ideas, particularly from women?

Is it possible that men and women are possibly more alike than Harris’s worldview has allowed?

Nah, he can’t be wrong. He’s Sam Harris! And so he’s going to drown us in words to show how mean we are to criticize him about his suggestion that being female makes us less critical and ugh, getting a headache now. Let’s just get into it. His response is titled, “I’m Not the Sexist Pig You’re Looking For“. Indeed, as his comments showed, we don’t have to go looking for sexist pigs, as they happen to fall right in our laps. I would like, in fact, for sexist pigs to quit falling in my lap, honestly. But here we are and so I’m going to at least have some fun with it.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/another-week-another-atheist-demands-we-call-his-sexism-not-sexism-this-time-sam-harris/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory

https://www.secularstudents.org/speakers/AmandaMarcotte
20 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Another week, another atheist demands we call his sexism not-sexism. (This time, Sam Harris.) (Original Post) rug Sep 2014 OP
His Atheism has nothing to do with it. Wait Wut Sep 2014 #1
I don't disagree. A pig is a pig regardless. rug Sep 2014 #2
You know, I just don't see any evidence that AtheistCrusader Sep 2014 #6
This is an excellent point. cbayer Sep 2014 #7
Generally it has been held that males do better in science, Math, or formal Reason in effect. Brettongarcia Sep 2014 #15
You're right. And that's a damn good question. rug Sep 2014 #13
we hear and see the same on a democratic progressive board. it is not a atheist issue or religious seabeyond Sep 2014 #3
Alert results. longship Sep 2014 #16
really? on that post, lol? ok. thanks. and interesting jury. but... more seabeyond Sep 2014 #17
btw. i just read the alerter. i absolutely recognize women issues.... and talk about them. seabeyond Sep 2014 #18
That's right. Those estrogen driven, nurturing, coherence builders just don't get it. cbayer Sep 2014 #4
Reminds me of this. AtheistCrusader Sep 2014 #5
Wow, Sam. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #8
Priesthood!! That's what he is going for. cbayer Sep 2014 #9
It only goes to illustrate that male chauvinism transcends all religious boundaries. LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #10
Isn't that the truth. cbayer Sep 2014 #11
When the 'leaders' of a 'movement' start spouting nonsense, LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #12
As a starting point edhopper Sep 2014 #14
To understand the why of the gender imbalance, LiberalAndProud Sep 2014 #19
Thanks edhopper Sep 2014 #20

Wait Wut

(8,492 posts)
1. His Atheism has nothing to do with it.
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 12:41 PM
Sep 2014

He's just a Grad A Ass. Slap a cross on him, he's still an ass. Wrap him in a yellow robe and shave his head, yep...still an ass.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
6. You know, I just don't see any evidence that
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 01:22 PM
Sep 2014

pigs actually treat each other like this.

What did pigs ever do to anyone to deserve this rep?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
7. This is an excellent point.
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 01:26 PM
Sep 2014

Pigs are generally very kind and they provide us with wonderful things, like bacon.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
15. Generally it has been held that males do better in science, Math, or formal Reason in effect.
Thu Sep 18, 2014, 10:24 AM
Sep 2014

As a female medical professional, you would be in the middle of this controversy.

How do you feel about the objectivity of the data there? 1) For some time Med Schools have been admitting more and more women; though this is not a strictly scientific but also "caring" profession perhaps?

In the meantime, 2) males are overwhelming dominant in science and engineering.

Thoughts on this?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
3. we hear and see the same on a democratic progressive board. it is not a atheist issue or religious
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 12:47 PM
Sep 2014

issue. it is not a party issue. it is a man issue.

longship

(40,416 posts)
16. Alert results.
Thu Sep 18, 2014, 12:27 PM
Sep 2014
AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Thu Sep 18, 2014, 10:13 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

we hear and see the same on a democratic progressive board. it is not a atheist issue or religious
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=153046

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"It's a man issue" typically sexist insult from this one. She'd be the first to alert if someone had posted that some social issue was "a woman issue"

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Sep 18, 2014, 10:20 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The original post is about sexism, this post is just fine.
Leave it.

Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Stop the alert stalking, Discussionist. Just stop.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I just posted something similar and I am a man- I would suggest that it is a "some men issue" but whatever.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: just an opinion
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Stop the witch hunt!
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Explanation: No explanation given

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Somehow my comment did not get posted. I think I was #7.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with your post because sexism IS a man issue.
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
17. really? on that post, lol? ok. thanks. and interesting jury. but... more
Thu Sep 18, 2014, 12:32 PM
Sep 2014

There's absolutely nothing wrong with your post because sexism IS a man issue.

this should be a stand alone OP in the fluidity of thought.

thanks longship. just perfectly, the way you put it, the clarity.... was... yummy in the obvious. fun.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
18. btw. i just read the alerter. i absolutely recognize women issues.... and talk about them.
Thu Sep 18, 2014, 01:03 PM
Sep 2014

it is not the end of the world, honestly. pretty easy.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
4. That's right. Those estrogen driven, nurturing, coherence builders just don't get it.
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 01:18 PM
Sep 2014

When "kumbayah" is used as a descriptor to attack people, you know you've got a problem.

Good for you Amanda. Don't stop.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
8. Wow, Sam.
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 01:43 PM
Sep 2014

What a pile of unmitigated male-centric stupidity.

Oh Sam, please get a grip. First atheist spirituality now macho arrogance. Next step -- priesthood. If I ever wanted to tell someone to shut up, it would be you, Sam, now.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
9. Priesthood!! That's what he is going for.
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 01:46 PM
Sep 2014

And after that, maybe he can be a saint…..

or something.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
10. It only goes to illustrate that male chauvinism transcends all religious boundaries.
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 01:52 PM
Sep 2014

Ladies, our journey is long. Persevere!

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
11. Isn't that the truth.
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 01:55 PM
Sep 2014

Sometimes those who are lacking a particular point of privilege are blind to the ones they hold.

The denial of issues related to sexism within the atheist community needs to be challenged, and this author is definitely up to the task.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
12. When the 'leaders' of a 'movement' start spouting nonsense,
Wed Sep 17, 2014, 02:00 PM
Sep 2014

those of us within the 'movement' need to convince them of their wrongheadedness. This would be one of those times.

edhopper

(33,604 posts)
14. As a starting point
Thu Sep 18, 2014, 10:02 AM
Sep 2014

and not to give credence to Harris' statement, there is the question why twice as many men are atheists than women.
I have also found that there are usually more men in this type of activist organization than women.

I am not sure of the reason for the first, I suppose it is more cultural than anything innate to the sexes, but that is just speculation.
As for the second, my guess is there are many specific issues for woman in this society so when they choose to be an activist, there are more pressing problems they become involved in.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
19. To understand the why of the gender imbalance,
Thu Sep 18, 2014, 01:26 PM
Sep 2014

I think we have to examine a great many cultural influences. Off the top of my head, I think of a few.

Girls have historically performed less well in math/science curricula.
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/03/07/the-truth-about-gender-and-math/

.. one study found that the gender gap in math ability and the level of gender inequality in a society were highly correlated. That is, “…the gender gap in math, although it historically favors boys, disappears in more gender-equal societies.”

That is one area of influence where I can link to studies which may support my assertion.

Secondly, I'd like to find a study that examines the relationship between powerlessness and religiosity, but I came up with nothing after a cursory search. Still, I think that may be an area of interest as we examine gender disparities.

Also, churches figured out very early on that free child care is key in getting women to attend. So there's the whole child-rearing aspect of being female in modern society.

Those are just a few areas of interest to me. I could probably think of more if I did so intentionally.

To chalk it up to hormones, as Harris has done, or some sort of shrewishness (for lack of a more concise term) as Dawkins has done is simplistic thinking and not worthy of their intellect.

edhopper

(33,604 posts)
20. Thanks
Thu Sep 18, 2014, 01:57 PM
Sep 2014

I think you are on the right track.

One thing Harris alludes to that I think might be sort of right, is that the confrontational style of some of the atheist organizations might not appeal to women as much. Though not for the reasons he says.

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